Hello,
Starting 2 new cabinet jobs in cherry, the first cherry cabinets I have done since I started my business 8 months ago. Called my usual supplier and they were out of cherry ply and 4/4 cherry, so I called another supplier I had never used before and they had regular and steamed cherry. I opted for the steamed cherry since both sets of cabinets will be stained, so as to minimize color differences in the sap/heartwood. Came in today and I am impressed. The 10 ft boards were very nice, with hardly a knot or defect. Every now and then I can see a little sap on an edge, but the boards are mostly all a light pink. Just wondering if any one had heard of or used this before.
As a side note, I live in So. Mississippi, so good cherry/walnut is usually a rare find in this area (or non-existent). My regular supplier told me a few weeks ago when I checked on the price of the cherry (he had the 4/4 at that time – $3.95/BF) to expect about 40%-60% sap on the boards. Way more than I was comfortable with. The lumber I received today was $4.50/BF.
Lee
Replies
Lee,
Steaming Walnut is done to 'magically' turn the sapwood into the color of the heartwood. There are two issues with this process, one is steaming turns Walnut into a kind of blah brown sameness, secondly is the steaming obscures the amount of sapwood that actually exists in the board.
My guess is the steaming of Cherry must be performing the same blending of sapwood as done with Walnut. I hate to mention this, but if the lumber you bought is in the rough, you might find that after a couple passes over the jointer or planer that the steaming magic will disappear and the sapwood original color will reappear..
Best of luck.
Bob,
I knew of (had heard of) steaming walnut before, just never heard of it being done to cherry. Actually,the lumber is not in the rough, the supplier straight lined the lumber and surfaced it to 7/8ths for free. I will take it down another 1/16th or so per side to end up with 3/4" thickness. As I said, the wood will be stained, and I'm using gel stain so I don't think initially there will be a problem with differences in the color, I'm just a little concerned what they will look like in six months or a year.
Lee
I used to work at a lumber retailer. We felt the same way about steamed cherry as we did steamed walnut, that is to say stay away from the stuff.
Steaming's only purpose is to spread the color from the heartwood to sapwood and increase a sawmills yield. It has the side effect of producing a uniform, albeit blander color to cherry and walnut. This color effect is useful for retailing lumber in Lowes, Home Depot, etc. where the lumber buyers aren't as discriminating - keeps folks from sorting thru piles to find stuff they like.
You do bring up a good point in stain uniformity, however I still can't figure why people stain hardwoods anyway, but that's just me.
Boardman, I know that it seems logical that the color would spread from the heartwood, but I believe I have read that the color change is within the sapwood cells, and would still occur even without any heart present. go figure!Also, The effect of steaming for color works best the greener the wood goes into the steamer. Which cleared up somethig I was puzzled by a while back. I steamed some 2" thick walnut for bending a while back. I ran the parts in one side of the steam-box and out the other side, since I would only be bending about the middle 20" of about 6'. After I started steaming, I gave myself one of those dope-slaps on the forehead, thinking I would kill the color in that midsection. The wood had air-dried down to about 18%, before steaming and later when I dressed it down after it was dry, the great color was still there unchanged.
I'm sure you're right - guess I was just addressing the net effect. I have seen some walnut and cherry that was air dried down to about 12% and then kiln dried without steaming and it comes out looking very nice.
Boardman,
This color effect is useful for retailing lumber in Lowes, Home Depot, etc. where the lumber buyers aren't as discriminating
Can you get cherry and walnut at lowe's and home depot? Nothing but crappy pine here in the south. As far as staining cherry, I would agree. I would much prefer the natural color of the wood allowed to age and darken on it's own. Unfortunately, I have a family to support, so the customer gets what they want. I learned a long time ago not to try to influence a customer with your likes and dislikes. If you "understand" their wants (even if you don't agree with them) it makes for more jobs, and more accepted bids.
Personally, if it were my kitchen or a furniture project, I would get the cherry from Pennsylvania (probably Groff's lumber) as the nicest stuff comes from PA in my opinion.
Lee
"Can you get cherry and walnut at lowe's and home depot?" On extreeeeeeeeeemly rare occasions, and it's incredibly ugly in my experience.
I was at Crosscut Hardwoods in Seattle yesterday and they had quite a bit of unsteamed cherry. What killed me, though, was the Sitka Spruce. First time I've noticed it there, 16'+ boards, totally vertical grain, gorgeous!! forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG,
Wow, sounds nice. I wish there were places like that around here. On a few occasions I have made it up to Pennsylvania to Groff & Groff and Rick Hearne's place, and also sandy pond hardwoods. Those places are incredible! I always buy stuff to put in "inventory" (my neighbor calls it my wood cache') and ship it back home.
Lee
Hey - I should trade you some cherry for some quilted maple. I've looked up some quilted sources on the net, but can you reccomend any?
Let's see, NW Timber has a section on their site with boards you can see (there is a pic of each board) before you buy, quilted, western curly, birdseye, claro walnut, etc. - http://www.nwtimber.com . For curly (eastern) maple, maple leaf hardwoods - http://www.curlymaple.com has some of the best. Also, gilmer woods in CA - http://www.gilmerwood.com. All of these places have photos of the boards, which I much prefer. If you are buying figured wood, there is nothing like being able to see it first. Not to mention, one man's fiddleback is another man's curly, someones AAAAA grade might be your AAA. There's also curly woods in Mckinney, Texas - http://www.curlywoods.com. And one more guy. I bought from him off of Ebay and he has his own web site, with photos. Some of the absolute best quilted maple ever. He caters to instrument (guitar) builders, so most of his stuff is bookmatched guitar size plates or billets, but I'm sure if you emailed him he could get you what you are looking for. His stuff that's not AAAA or AAAAA goes for a song on ebay - and it's plenty nice enough for furniture. If I can think of any more, I'll drop you a line.
Good Luck,
Lee
Oh Yeah, the last guy's web site is http://www.3dhardwoods.com
lee
Thanks for the info. I'd seen the other sites, but not the 3D guy. I've worked with curly and birdseye maple, but not quilted. Does it act the same in terms of tearout when planing, etc?
Boardman,
Does it act the same in terms of tearout when planing, etc?
No, much worse! HA HA! Seriously, thickness sanding is the best way to go. I find it is similar to highly figured birdseye. I've tried wetting the wood, planing at an angle, taking light cuts, etc and had mixed results. I think a spiral head jointer or planer might excell at this kind of stuff. Good luck,
Lee
Also, gilmer woods in CA - http://www.gilmerwood.com.
Gilmer is right here in Portland, Oregon.
I don't think the building would pass the seismic code anywhere in CA. ;)
The hardwoods in the HD's around here are laughable: mostly flatsawn cupped 3/4" s4s; the stuff thicker than 3/4" is glued up from thinner stock. i always wonder who on earth buys the stuff.
Barry, I'm thinking about going down to Portland for the Best in the Northwest this month. Is it worth setting aside some time to go to Gilmer???forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG,
Keep in mind that Gilmer is only open 8-5 M-F, not exactly the most convenient hours. It's not the easiest place to find, although with Mapquest and Google maps these days, most places are alot easier to locate than they used to be (urban ones, anyway).
I'd say it's worth going to if you think you might purchase something. It's not like they have any type of showroom: just a creeky old building, stuffed to the rafters with stacks of exotic wood.
I love visiting their website regularly. I don't have the money, but buy most of their stuff, but It sure is beautiful. I love the bubinga they have and burls. Nice detail pics too.
Not sure where the walnut and cherry come from that's stocked in the Seattle-area stores. Seems like eastern USA is the best place to be for plentiful hardwoods, but we do OK here in the Northwest.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
In Wisconsin/Minnesota it's available at home supply stores - probably because it's so sommonly used around here. It's nothing to write home about, and in this part of the country there are plenty of lumber yards that have it.
Boardman,
Go figure. Like I said the only thing the box stores around here carry is some of the nastiest knotty white pine, and southern yellow pine. I think we get the rejects from all the other stores in the US. Even the folks with sawmills down here don't cut anything but pine and red oak.
Lee
Jon Arno wrote an excellent post about the chemistry of the steaming process back in 2003, clearing up some misconceptions that are propagated every time this topic comes up. The color is not "spread," nor does it "migrate" as many people believe. Also, steaming (or pre-steaming) is used for other purposes than evening-out color. Here's the link to his post:
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=14594.6
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
F/G,
Wow! Is there a post out there floating around that you don't know about? You amaze me with the ability to find a post about anything. I guess I haven't learned to master the search engine here on knots.
Thanks,
Lee
I bookmark the good stuff! I have a folder for all woodworking, and a sub-folder called "Knots" for things that come up regularly, so no magic involved, just remembering that there was a good post somewhere, some time, LOL!
The search engine's tough. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
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