Replies

1. 
   Clay | Mar 12, 2003 09:03am | #1

   Teak is one of the most durable (pretty too) woods for marine use.  Many many other woods have been and are being used.  White oak is a commonly available wood that has a long history of successful marine use.  I can't help you much with Apitong or Ipe, but try them!  What is the worst case scenario? Deterioration?  Which will mean replacement with another species, hopefully a better one.

2. 
   jonsherryl | Mar 12, 2003 04:23pm | #2

   Sammer, ipe has excellent decay resistance, but it's exceptionally hard and heavy...making it more difficult to work with, if the parts require shaping. Also, its shrinkage characteristics lead to fine surface checks, if it is exposed to wide fluctuations in moisture content. There are worse choices, but it's probably not the best, if the parts are the least bit difficult to machine or intended to be decorative.

   Apitong is a Southeast Asian timber cut from several species in the genus Dipterocarpus (in the lauan family: Dipterocarpaceae.) It's decay resistance is hit-or-miss, depending on the species. It's silica content is also variable...but when it's high, it's really tough on blades. It's resin content is also variable, but usually high...so, it's ability to take the finish you intend to use might be a concern. The most resinous stock seems to have the best durability...so, you will be dealing with some trade offs.

   Purpleheart has good decay resistance and is often used for marine pilings...but again, it is cut from upwards of a dozen species in the genus Peltogyne and both texture and color varies, depending upon the species. When used in a marine environment it tends to turn virtually black in color. And finally, it's resistance to marine borers varies, so you'll have to be careful in sellecting the stock...and I'm not into boats enough to tell you what species to look for in this regard.

   There is another good teak substitute from Africa; iroko (Chlorophora excelsa.) It's appearance, density and working characteristics are more comparable to those of teak than any of the woods so far mentioned. The one serious negitive, though, is iroko's chemistry. It contains a potential allergen that can make it miserable to work with for anyone who develops a sensitivity...Even if you're not highly sensitive to it, the fine dust is irritating to the nose...but functionally, it works very well in marine applications.

   The bottom line is; teak is hard to beat when it comes to marine uses...so, unless cost is far-and-away the driving factor, this is a price-value choice you want to make very carefully. If the parts aren't labor intensive to replace, go ahead and experiment...but if this is a job you'd like to do just once, don't drop teak from consideration too quickly.   

   
   

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   Edited 3/12/2003 9:44:04 AM ET by Jon Arno

1. 
   Jamie_Buxton | Mar 12, 2003 09:25pm | #3

   At least in my local lumber dealers, plantation-grown teak is quite a bit less expensive than forest teak.  The odd thing is that the dealers who only carry forest teak don't seem to understand there is any alternative.

1. 
   jonsherryl | Mar 12, 2003 10:00pm | #4

   Jamie, there is a lot of plantation teak on the market now...and if it comes from plantations within teak's original range, it's pretty much the same as forest grown stock. Logging rotations are a little quicker, so the wood is cut from somewhat less mature trees and doesn't quite have the color you could count on when teak was coming from old growth stands.

   Teak is now being grown all over the tropics and apparently soil type has a significant impact on the quality of the timber. For example, teak grown on plantations in Africa has a somewhat poor reputation for having high silica content. I haven't heard any negative reports on other sources. It's good to see an important species like this now being more carefully managed and I'm sure they will eventually figure out where it can be grown without any ill side effects.

1. 
   jeffn7 | Mar 13, 2003 07:27am | #6

   I recently worked through a load of plantation teak from Java (not a native species there), it was excellent to work with and has held up very well through the winter in full exposure.

2. 
   justsammer | Mar 13, 2003 07:10am | #5

   jon, thanks for the great info.

   I also sent you an email with more detailed questions. let me know if you didn't get it.

   sammer

3. 
   jeffn7 | Mar 13, 2003 07:28am | #7

   ipe doesn't hold up nearly as well as teak in a marine, or even non-marine outdoor environment. I have the side-by-side examples to prove it.

4. 
   vacabby | Mar 14, 2003 02:36am | #8

   Thanks for starting this conversation.   I have found it very informative.   I have built several pieces of outdoor furniture from ipe.     Hard wood and tough on tools.    I am in the Mid-Atlantic area so it has weathered well and held up just fine.    I used it for the experience of working with something different.    I have good quality white oak readily available here.   I have since used it quite a bit for exterior use in lieu of ipe.    I feel as though your best bet for doing this job only once may still be teak.    I did some repair work on a sail boat for a friend fifteen years ago and it has stood the test of time.

   Thanks again for the thread.   It's nice to see folks discussing something different than setting up ye ole table saw one more time.

5. 
   Quickstep | Mar 15, 2003 01:48am | #9

   Sammer,

   This is one sailboater's opinion. If you don't care what it looks like, consider a product called starboard. It's synthetic, comes in black, white and brown. It will never deteriorate. If you do care what it looks like, use teak. If it's a pretty boat and has other teak already on it, you'll be glad you went the extra mile (aren't I free with your money?). I've seen mahogany in use on some classic boats, but always varnished. Just curious, what are you making? I know some sources for teak in Maryland if you're near here.

1. 
   justsammer | Mar 21, 2003 06:20am | #10

   chuck,

   thanks for your advice. I'll be making a variety of things from a lazarette door, boom gallows, bowsprit seat, etc. Just want to replace the old worn out teak. I have decided to try out Jatoba. From my research, it seems that it would be a good species to try for that environment, as long as it is coated. If i went with teak, I just wouldn't be producing very much, because I couldn't afford it.

   I'm in Colorado, I have a Norsea 27.

1. 
   Quickstep | Mar 21, 2003 02:58pm | #11

   Wow! That's a beautiful boat. I really love a boat with a canoe stern (mine has one). I can't help but wonder if some of the teak you described as worn out can be brought back. Mine was completely greyed out and weathered when I got it, and a lot of scraping and sanding brought it back completely. I seem to recall an article in WoddenBoat magazine years ago discussing Jatoba as a good substitute for teak. Out of curiosity, what do you plan to coat it with? I'm always interested to see what others are using. PS... Have you found any good forums for Sailors/Do it yourself boaters? I've fond a few, but they don't seem to get the particpiation of forums like knots.  

1. 
   hmthomas | Mar 21, 2003 03:37pm | #12

   Jon, I used to live in Central America and as you know, plantation teak is getting to be much more common there. In the very near future I suspect a lot of the teak imported into the US will be from Central America. I have used quite a bit of it at different stages of maturity with varying results.

   In the plantations the trees are planted 3 meters apart.  The closeness of the plants causes them to compete for sunlight and encourages fast height growth.  The trees are trimmed as needed and after 5 years the plantation is culled and the smaller trees are removed. After 5 more years the same process is repeated, this time the trees are useable as lumber and veneer. Generally the remaining trees are harvested after the 15th year where they produce nice sized logs. I was able to get some from a tree that was about 35 years old and that teak was much nicer than the less mature plantation teak, didn't have the dark streaks like plantation teak either. 

   My experience with the plantation lumber is that the grain is not nearly as tight as Asian teak. The color is not as neutral as Asian, lots of dark streaks and variation, which can be interesting. In marine use the wood held up fine but it was obvious that the grain wasn't as tight as the Asian wood.

   All in all, its nice to work with and holds up well outdoors and in the marine environment. It should be a bit more affordable than the Asian teak too.

1. 
   jonsherryl | Mar 21, 2003 03:51pm | #13

   Thanks for the good input on the Central American situation...it's the first I've heard from an impartial source (you can't believe what the dealers tell you most of the time.) I think teak is a species we'll eventually be able to manage successfully. There are a lot of other important tropical timbers, like genuine mahogany and the rosewoods where prospects aren't so bright.

2. 
   justsammer | Mar 22, 2003 08:00am | #14

   hey chuck,

   I'll be coating the new pieces I make with Deks Olje. This product seems to have the longevity and ease of maintenance similiar to Sikkens Cetol, which I'm sure you've heard of. The nice quality of Deks Olje is that the finish is clear, like water on wood, rather than cloudy and orange like Cetol. I haven't used it yet, but I've seen it on another boat.  And I agree, some of the teak is probably salvagable. I will be stripping and cleaning a lot of the old teak, and refinishing it with Deks Olje also. Its just the parts that are a little beat, and easy to remake, that I will be replacing.

   I have had some success with the forum on the Wooden Boat site. Of course they all have wooden hulls, but the're still a good source of knowledge.  other than that? Lets keep in touch for sharing of information. My email is: [email protected]