I just bought some Transtint dyes to experiment with on some curly maple picture frames. My question is can the dye and shellac be applied with a brush. I don’t have a spray gun. If spraying is a must can someone suggest a gun to go with my 2 Hp compressor.
Replies
Get a dedicated shellac brush.You wont regret it and you wont have dye in your finish.
ohiobob,
Absolutely ! just remember to thin it out a lot.. shellac dries insanely fast and the trick is to cover everything once.. not go back and try to work out brush marks.. I slop it on! Trying to do the Indy 500 of painting. speed is everything..
Put about three really thin coats on.. The first coat will dry in less than 15 minutes and you can then sand it with 220 a lite sand just to remove the nibs and fuzz raised.. then give it another coat and since the coat is getting a little thicker now it might take 20 minutes..again a sand. then the final coat..
remember at all times to paint really really fast!
Neatness doesn't count! In fact if it slows you down it will hurt the finish.. If one area gets a litlle les than another area the next coat will disolve the first coat and everything will blend together..
If you buy precut shellac like Bulleye I add two more gallons of denatured alcohol to the gallon already cut.. If you are coming from flakes remember you simply cannot get it too thin!
When I am doing a lot of shellac I wash out my brush with denatured alcohol right into the can I was using that thins out the next coat even more.. and with the second coat I repeat washing the brush out into the can so the final coat is even thinner..
Now once you have that third coat on you can decide just how deep you want the finish.. the secret is in the sanding, not the brushing.. Final coat gets 400 grit followed by 1000 grit and then 2000 grit if I'm that insane.
all of it is light complete scuffing.. Watch a auto body painter sometime.. they dampen the finish and wipe it off with a plastic squegee to ensure everything is uniformly scuffed..
Once I have given everything a final sanding I then buff it out, someday I want to do french polish buffing but untill I have littleelse to do I'll use a random orbit buffer for the sake of speed.. If worried to an insane degree I could then French polish it and get a tiny deeper shine.
Thanks, but i'm confused. I want to tone the shellac also with dye.. The shellac flakes are mixed with denatured alcohol first. I don't know what 1 and 2 pound cut even means. What is the ratio of shellac flakes to alcohol? Geez i'm lost
Your easiest approach is to just buy a can of Zinsser SealCoat, which is a premixed 2# cut that is completely dewaxed, so you can put it over approximately anything, and put approximately anything over it. DSepending on the wood, some people will apply the thin shellac first, and then apply a stain. You get an even tone that way and do not have blotches where wood absorbed color unevenly. then a couple more coats over the stain.
OhioBob,
I make my life as simple as possible, I buy precut shellac.. you don't save any real money when you buy flakes unless you can bulk buy.. small project buy a quart can larger project buy a gallon of Bullseye. Buy two gallons of denatured alcohol for a gallon of bullseye and two quarts of denatured alcohol for a quart of Bullseye..
You can't go wrong just mixing it by guess, remember there is no such thing as too thin of shellac.. you want it thin and watery! That keeps it smooth and run free. (oh, it runs alright but it's so thin you can't see the runs when the alcohol evaporates)..
OK I just read the can. It is a three pound cut which means it's three pounds of flakes to a gallon of alcohol.. when I mix in two more gallons of denatured alcohol I get about a one pound cut so if you have a pound of flakes mix a gallon of denatured alcohol and you should be in the ballpark,,
remember shellac dries fast so paint faster!
Don't go back over anything, if you make a mistake get it the next coat and it will be just fine!
Do not be afraid of this, once you've done it it's the easiest finish you've ever used.. you simply cannot make a mistake that can't be fixed.. !
Worst case? wipe it off with denatured alcohol and start from scratch.. No harm done!
Oh, and if you have some left over in a well sealed can it won't keep for over a year. it's cheap so throw it out it's not hard on the enviornment.. (flamable though so use precaution, the best technique is to spread it over newspaper in the driveway and let the alcohol evaporate. 15 minutes later you can wad up the newspaper and it isn't any more flamable than any paper is.. But do keep it around for at least that year in case you scratch the work.. (small scratches can be wiped off with a rag dampened with denatured alcohol, deep scratches might require a little more shellac.. don't worry it blends in nicely decades later.
I just read Joe Sullivans comments, we are speaking about the same stuff.. It's actaully Zinsser Bullseye Shellac.. yellow can available at big box stores like Home Depot and most paint places..
Edited 12/16/2006 9:09 pm ET by frenchy
Thanks, both of you. I will try the precut shellac. My woodworkers supply catalog
shows a quart of Zinsser Bulls Eye Sealcoat Sanding sealer. Is this the same stuff?
Also, can i tint this with my dye and does the shellac need a top coat or is the shellac the top coat? Do i mix the quart of Seal Coat with 2 quarts of denatured alcohol?
Edited 12/16/2006 9:27 pm ET by ohiobob
Check out homesteadfinishing.com or shellac.net for basic shellac information.Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
ohiobob,
As a relative newbie, I've worked with TransTint and shellac in different ways...it's a lot easier keeping the processes seperate. You can mix Transtint in with the shellac but remember, when applied, it stays in the shellac not in the wood. Everytime you apply another coat of shellac it melts the undercoat and moves the stain around.
I find it easiest to mix 1/2 teaspooon of Transtint in 8 oz. of alcohol..I believe that complies with their recommendations. Then I can cut some of that to half strength and spray on to test...I'll use an old windex bottle or the like...and wipe off. You can use this testing method to determine the results your after. Then shellac away and rub out as suggested above.
BG, are saying you use the half teaspoon to 8 ounce alcohol to apply your dye using a spray bottle? Do you wipe off dye afterwards? Have you ever applied the shellac first then the dye for more to prevent splotching?
ohiobob,
Yes, I believe the concentration Transtint recommends is about 1/2 teaspoon to 8 oz. of alcohol or water to achieve the color that is on the label. I may sneek up on the color by diluting a portion further and giving the piece a 'wash coat'(maybe half strength)and see how it looks. I spray on with a windex type bottle and immediately wipe off.
If I seal the piece first with shellac and then stain this should produce a more even stain...however, I'm not fond of that look..
Is denatured alchol the same thing as isophol alchol????
ptu,
"Is denatured alchol the same thing as isophol alchol????"
No. There are many types of alcohol in which shellac will disolve. Isopropyl alcohol is rubbing alcohol - not fit for human consumption. Ethyl alcohol is the type we drink. Methyl alcohol is highly poisonous. All will disolve shellac.
You could, if you wanted, buy very expensive, laboratory-grade, pure (100% or 200 proof) ethyl alcohol and use it to make a shellac solution. Or you could buy the usual, inexpensive "denatured" mixture of ethyl/isopropyl alcohol. Alcohol is denatured by adding something to it that makes it unuseable for drinking purposes. Methyl alcohol is the frequently-used denaturing additive, or benzene or a number of other chemicals that are proprietary to that manufacturer. Once denatured, it does not have to be taxed or priced as drinking alcohol would be.
Rich
Our local woodworking guild conducted a hands-on seminar featuring Don Williams who is the head restoration expert for the Smithsonian Institutions. He authored a very good article on shellac finishing in Fine Woodworking many years ago. In the full day class everyone brought a small project to finish and Don provided all of the supplies including brushes, shellac (five varieties of the twenty-eight he owns), pure grain alcohol(the kind you get at the liquor store), denatured alcohol(for cleaning only), sandpaper, 0000 steel wool and wax. Dissolve 6 oz.(by weight) of shellac flakes into 16 oz.(by volume) of pure grain (or anhydrous) alcohol to produce a 3# cut which is then thinned with another 16 oz of alcohol to make a working solution of 1 1/2# cut. He demonstrated proper technique using a 3/4" sable or sable and taklon watercolor brush( $25-$40 at fine arts stores) on an 24" square mahogany veneered panel. Dipping the brush just shy of the ferrule he quickly spreads the shellac in straight line strokes over a 4-6" square area avoiding dragging the brush across an edge of the panel(always wipe toward an edge). Working very fast he completes the first coat in 5-7 minutes and immediately begins the second coat where the first square has dried then repeating for a third coat. Allowing that to dry for twenty minutes he scuff sands (very lightly) and repeats the process for another three coats. The process is repeated a total of four or five times(can be more if necessary such as with very open grain woods or to gain more depth). Rinse the brush in denatured alcohol and reshape by hand and let dry, no more cleaning than that is necessary. Allow the finshed piece to dry for 40 minutes to an hour depending on humidity level and temperature. Using 0000 steel wool(he prefers Liberon-no oils or other junk) and good quality wax such as black bison rub out the finish with as much pressure and speed as you can muster. Per Don it is ideal if you generate a goodly amount of heat from friction as it will burnish the shellac both hardening the surface and producing a satin sheen with amazing depth-it works!!
All twenty five of us did a respectable job and some were absolutely amazing. It is now my finish of choice for most projects. Even tabletops that could come in contact with an alcohols spill can be topcoated with poly or lacquer if dewaxed shellac is the base coating. I have no experience in adding tinting dyes(aniline) but would heed an earlier posts recommendation to fail on the light side and build the color with multiple coats.
pappleg,
Great story.
That's a pretty fast finishing schedule. I didn't know it could go that fast, but then I spent the last 15 years in Hawaii where everything dries much slower. My workshop in Arizona is slowly coming together. By sometime in March or April I should be able to test my finishing techniques in a near-zero humidity environment.
I don't brush. I spray everything. With a little $69 Home Depot special, gravity-feed HVLP gun, I can put down more finish than a brush in a much smoother pattern. I'll never go back to brushing anything. Clean-up is a piece of cake. 30 seconds, max.
I wish more people could get to appreciate how beautiful shellac is. Shellac is remarkably durable. And the commonly-heard fear that a piece of furntiure might get an alcohol drink spilled on it is almost ridiculous. How many times has anyone spilled a drink on a bedroom set, or even living room furniture, for that matter?
However, despite my love for it, shellac is not my most-used finish. CAB-Acrylic lacquer is, because I don't have control of the environment where my furniture might get used. Cab-Acrylic is water-white, non yellowing, and quite a bit more durable than shellac. It has the same great clarity, rubs out like shellac, retouches easily and alcohol can't hurt it. It's also a lot more expensive and I've probably lost more brain cells from inhaling lacquer thinner than from breathing alcohol fumes!
Rich
Rich,
Saw that HVLP gun at Home Depot and thought it had to be a toy at that price given that most HVLP turbine systems are in the $600-1000 range. Don't have a good place to spray year round anyhow but thinking for my next shop. For that price I might have to give it a try. According to Don most of peoples negative experiences with shellac result from three common mistakes; using a cheap brush, working in high humidity and making the stuff with denatured alcohol(too much water and chemicals that destroy shellacs' best properties).
Hey those folk across the pond slapped it on everything from chairs to highboys to violins and more than a few of those are still around and doing quite well thank-you!
Thanks for the lead on the spray gun although you will not get me to use lacquer thinner in this lifetime-I work at Johns Hopkins and have personally seen what that stuff can do-I hope you're using good ventilation protection.
Pat
Rich,
Re: your question about spilled drinks in the bedroom, I've repaired more than one chest, dresser, vanity top that has had not vodka, but perfume spilled (or spritzed) on it. The vehicle that the smelly stuff is held in, is quite a good solvent. Nail polish remover is frequently spilled in the bedroom as well, and will eat through many finishes faster than the spiller can run and get a towel.
Not to take away from shellac as a finish. These products will go through most finishes, not just shellac. (My in-law's had shellac as the finish on his living room's heart pine floor. It was beautiful from the time I first saw it, until the mother in law sold the house- about 15 yrs.) But just to say that the bedroom isn't as safe a place for finishes as you might think.
Regards,
Ray Pine
Yeah Ray,
You're probably right. We just got to stop people from using rocket fuel in their bedrooms! Our furniture just ain't safe.
Rich, wouldyou by chance know the model number of your Home Depot SPRAYER?
Bob, I'll get it later tonight. But before you buy, Grizzly has a set of 2 LVLP gravity feed sprayers for $54.95 Model H7672 (the pair). They have 0.8 and 1.4 mm tips, pressure gauges on each gun. 11 CFM air consumption, 29-50 PSI. These would be hard to beat. Rich
Rich, those sound interesting. It sounds like it would work with my PC 6 Gal. compressor. It's 2 HP(peak) with 3.7 scfm@40 psi and 2.6 scfm@90 psi.Also my pic frame i shellaced has 5 coats on it. It is smooth to the touch but my fingers drag across it. I have some 600 sanpaper and 0000 steel wool. Which would be better to final rub with.
"I have some 600 sanpaper and 0000 steel wool. Which would be better to final rub with." You'll have to decide. Use a lubricant for the 600 grit. The 4-0 can be used with or without. Rich
Rich, what type of lubricant would work. I never wet sanded anything before. Bob
Pretty much anything that "wets" the surface. Mineral spirits, naphtha, "soapy" water (a few drops of dishwashing detergent in a quart of water), a few drops of Murphy's Oil Soap in a quart of water.
Different lubricants have different actions as do different grades of abrasive or different brands of the same "grade."
Bob,
Home Depot has the Husky Gravity Feed HVLP model HDS790 for $79.95. I'd go with the Grizzly gravity feed LVLP pair. In fact, I'm going to buy them.
Rich
First, a question: Why do you want to use the shellac as the body for a toner? It will work fine that way, but this is where, unfortunately, neatness does count a bit more. This is best done with spraying, but if you can't then you can mix the dye and shellac. The key is to keep the dye very light so it takes a lot of coats to add much color. That way unevenness in one coat is offset by the other coats. It's usually a lot easier to dye and finish separately, though in some circumstances toners bring effects not easily achieved otherwise.
The thickness of shellac is measured by the "pound cut' This is really pretty simple. Two pound cut means two pounds of dry shellac dissolved in one gallon of alcohol. Premixed liquid shellac comes in two varieties--clear, which is bleached and is very light--at the expense of some of the protective qualities, and amber, which has an orange cast. Both of these are usually sold in 3 lb. cut strength which is too heavy to brush or spray in most cases. Both of these contain wax, which means that polyurethane varnish and waterborne finishes won't adhere well to it. Zinsser also makes a product called Seal Coat, which is simply shellac with its wax removed. All finishes will adhere to Seal Coat. It is sold in 2 lb. cut strength. If you mix your own shellac, the dry flakes are available either dewaxed or with wax, in a range of colors from super blonde to quick dark as in garnet shellac.
Follow Pondfish's advice and hook up with Jeff at Homestead Finishing. He has everything you need for shellac, including shellac retarder which slows the drying a bit. He also has lots of expert advice. I got a brush with bristles made of a synthetic material called Taklon. It lays down the shellac in nice even strokes. The thing I like best about shellace is that there's no need to clean the brush. Let it harden and just re-dissolve it in alcohol next time. I also us Behkol as the solvent instead of regular denatured alcohol. It's probably overkill, but I like overkill. Contact Jeff. You'll get lots of good information and we need to keep guys like in business.
Thanks, I have some transtint dyes on order from Homestead. I will call Jeff on the shellac questions. Would you go with Homesteads precut liquid shellac or the Seal Coat shellacs? Is shelf life an issue on precut shellac?
Shelf life is an issue with any shellac. However, Zinsser guarantees that its product will be fresh and usable for at least a year -- or is it two years, if unopened. I would worry about partial cans after several months.Zinsser Sealcoat Sand Sealer IS the stuff I recommended. It is a 2 lb cut of clear, dewaxed shellac. Not to get into the technicalities of dewaxed shellac, but it will go over pretty much anything and adhere well without fisheyes or blemishes. It is the idea first coat. Then you can top coat with Bullseye, which can be bought by the quart almost anywhere. Be aware that there are two varieties of Bullseye. One is clear, the other amber. The amber has a distinct amber cast. The clear has a very slight golden cast.
Still confused Joe. Is the Bullseye a different product than the Seal Coat. In mt woodworkers supply catalog they are one in the same?
They are two different products by the same manufacturer (although the Sealcoat IS called Bulleseye Sealcoat). You just want to be sure that you are getting Bullseye Sealcoat and NOt the regular Bullseye Shellac. See the following links:
http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=31
http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=72
The important differences are a) Sealcoat comes thinned to a 2# cut; b) sealcoat is completely dewaxed, which can make a bit difference if you are putting it over or under anything else.
I take the next poster's point abut not liking the even-color look. However, it depends on the wood. Some woods look lovely just the way they absorb stain, while others get blotchy. I have had blotch problems with ash, for example, and absolutely with softwoods.
Of course, there is no right or wrong to it. Depends on what you want. If you are coloring the wood, that is one thing. If you are trying to pop the grain, that is quite another. But blotches never look good.
Edited 12/17/2006 1:16 pm ET by Joe Sullivan
thanks guys. I am trying this one some curly maple picture frames as an experiment. So if I understand correctly it's ...Dye....Bullseye Seal Coat....then Bullseye shellac?
Seal Coat IS shellac. It's a 2 lb cut of dewaxed, blonde (the natural red dyes are bleached out) shellac. You can use that for additional coats or any other type of shellac. Rich
I guess i don't understand the difference in the two.
Follow those links I gave you to the maniufacturer. The key is, Sealcoat is DEWAXED, and already thinned. If you get the straight Bullseys, you will have to do the thinning -- no big deal, but the fact that it is not dewaxed means that there is less certainty that your finish will be clear and unblemished.
Bob,Go here and read:http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/author/zinsser/shellac.shtmShellac is a natural substance produced from excretions of the Lac beetle. It contains wax, a dark red pigment and the natural resin itself which is soluble in alcohol. It can be used with the naturally occuring wax and with the pigment. Or the product can be refined to remove pigment and wax, resulting in a very blonde resin.Some think removing the wax makes the resin a less durable finish, but that's open to debate.Zinser's product, Seal Coat is a refined shellac product from which just about all the wax and all the pigment has been removed. Such a refined shellac will not yellow woods. This is a great benefit when finishing certain woods, such as maple which will yellow significantly under varnish and nitrocellulose lacquer. Many consider such yellowing to be very ugly.Other grades of shellac, such as Zinser's Bullseye Amber, contain some wax and some pigment. Shellac is also used containing its natural deep red pigment to impart that color to certain woods.The choice is yours. Shellac is a finish that can be used without any other "top coat." The finest example of furniture finish (in the opinion of some people) is shellac which has been applied using the technique called "french polish." Shellac is very durable and imparts a clarity to the wood which far surpasses that of varnishes. High-grade lacquers are the only rival in this regard. Shellac is not quite as durable as varnish or lacquer, but other than deliberate abuse or prolonged contact with water or alcohol is an excellent protective finish.Shellac makes an excellent sealer coat over which varnishes can be applied. Dewaxed grades of shellac (Seal Coat, for example) are used as "base coats" over which any type of varnish may be applied. Non oil-based varnishes will not adhere to shellac that contains wax.Oil-based varnishes can be applied over any type of shellac - waxed or dewaxed.Rich
Now i finally understand. Thanks Joe and Rich. Sorry for the thick headedness. Now one final question, will my Transtint dyes cover wood filler in nail holes?
Bob, In all probability, the wood filler will take the dye differently than the surrounding wood. It will stain, but there will be no doubt that it is a different substance than the wood itself and the difference will draw attention to the filled nail holes. An old trick is to use sanding dust mixed with shellac as filler. Then the differential staining is much less apparent, if at all. Rich
If you are using a water based filler, and there are a lot of them around you can add a little, very little, analine dye powder to a small amount of the filler and mix it to virtually match the color of the dyed wood. Just fill the holes AFTER you have sealed the dyed wood.If you are using liquid dyes I think you would dilute the filler beyond being useful.John
HI, I LIKE SHELLAC BEEN USING IT FOR YEARS. NOW, HOW DO YOU GET THE WAX OUT? I'VE BEEN MAKING MY OWN SHELLAC THEN LETTING IT SETTLE OUT SO THE WAX GOES TO THE BOTTOM, IS THIS THE RIGHT WAY?
Genevette,(please turn off your caps lock key)I know of 2 ways to remove wax from shellac.1. filter it through a "paint strainer" which is a paper filter cone with an open mesh at the vertex of the cone. The mesh gets clogged with wax quickly, so you'll need several cones, depending on how much shellac you'll be filtering.2. (my favorite method - removes pretty close to 100% of the wax) Mix the shellac/alcohol/wax mixture with an equal volume of mineral spirits or naphtha, in a plastic squeeze bottle that has a pointy spout and a plastic tip on the end of the spout. Shake the shellac/mineral spirits mixture vigorously, producing a milky emulsion. Use a big enough bottle to handle the volume of shellac you need to use for a day of finishing.Set the bottle down with the spout pointing downward and let it rest overnight. The mineral spirits and shelac/alcohol layers will separate from each other with a clear line of demarcation. The wax will be extracted by the mineral spirits and will be in the upper layer. The lower shellac/alcohol layer will be crystal clear (free of wax).Take the tip off the downward-pointing spout and squeeze the shellac into a container. Stop just as the mineral spirits/wax layer starts down into the spout. Rinse out the squeeze bottle with a little alcohol and mineral spirits combination.Rich
Bullseye = Waxed
Seat Coat= De-waxedCertain finishes, like poly and w/b, do not adhere well to waxy shellac. Hence, de-waxed seal coat is made as a universal undercoat.Like Steve Schone says, if you are mixing the dye in the shellac to make a toner, it's best sprayed. It is very difficult to get even coverage with a brush. Even if it looks good as you put it on, it can streak as it dries.You can get a small touch up gun for not much money that doesn't require a lot of CFM and it will work fine for your picture frames.As suggested, ,you can use the Transtint in water as a dye-stain first, then you can apply the shellac by brush or spray.
A better rule is :
Amber = waxed
Clear = waxed
Seal Coat = dewaxed
You will find Bulls Eye on all of the Zinsser shellac products, including Seal Coat, though the graphics make it less prominent.
OK all, I'm playing with my Transtint dyes today. I like the colors I'm seeing when i apply the dyes before i wipe it off. When I wipe of dyes the color is not near as strong obviously. Can i expect the wet colors to reappear when i apply my Bullseye Seal Coat?
Ohiobob,
The best way to answer that is for yourself. Take your samples through the complete finishing process and then you'll know forever.
bob,bg is right. People here like to help out and are very willing to share all kinds of experiences. But you need to answer these very basic kinds of questions by doing the steps on your own.Rich
Sorry Rich and BG, I am doing the steps as I go. It was just a question I asked in between steps to maybe avoid a a problem before it developed. I'm off to try the shellacing now.
i used the spray can of shellac on some some projects yesterday. the spray can is also de-waxed, it says specifically that on the label.
As for spraying with your compressor, go to the borg and buy a gravity-fed touchup gun. Costs about $30.
Dick
what is the borg?
Ok folks, I'm putting my Bullseye seal coat on a 4" by 12" test piece. I have 3 coates on with a 1" brush. Finding it very difficult to get an even application. I am going to try a 4 to 1 seal coat/denatured alcohol ratio on the next coat. Does this sound accurate?
Bob,The BORG is Home Depot. Resistence is futile.Don't worry about uneven application. Work fast but don't hurry. Try to flow on each new brushfull adjacent to a wet edge of the previous swath.You can put down several application in one day. Then, level the dry, hard, uneven finish the next day, with 320 grit on a sanding block (rubber or felt, gently, taking down the highest spots. Over several applications it will all even out.Rich
Ladies and Gents, I've had good luck spraying Bullseye Shellac on with a $1.99 plastic spray bottle from Walmart. Don't laugh. Try it. Works pretty good after you adjust the spray nozzle. I finished a Cherry small round table and two Cherry sweater cabinets using the Walmart spray bottles--I did these pieces about 10 years ago, and they still look great. I spray it on and make sure the surface is wet, but not so wet that it runs.
I've also used the spray bottles to spray auto enamel on my '53 Chevy convertible--you'd be surprised at the results a fellow can obtain after a small amount of practice.
Need some advice, I am applying my Bullseye Seal Coat to my test piece. I am getting a nice deep coat but I keep leaving edge lines with my brush. I thought by applying additional coats these previous lines would be dissolved. They did not disappear like I had hoped? I am brushing on pure denatured alcohol now to try and strip some finish off?
Hello Bob, I hope I do not come across as a purist here but I attended a wonderful hands-on class in shellac finishing with an acknowledged expert and twenty five of us had essentially the same experience using his methods. Assuming your test piece is final hand sanded with the grain to 180-220 grit paper and reasonably smooth grained (maple, cherry, poplar, walnut, etc) this will absolutely work. First, use only a high quality artist's watercolor wash brush (sable or sable & taklon bristle)-$20-40 at an art supply store-they are incredibly soft & smooth. Second, do not thin with denatured alcohol-too much water and other chemicals in it that seriously alters the properties of shellac. Use only ethyl alcohol-most commonly obtained at a liquor store as 100% grain neutral spirits-brand in my area is Everclear. Denatured alcohol is fine for cleaning brushes, container, work surfaces, etc. Dissolve 3 oz by weight of shellac flakes (blonde, orange, amber-your choice) in a lidded glass jar with 16 oz by volume of ethyl alcohol-will take a day or two or you can grind the flakes in an old coffee grinder and considerably speed up the process to a matter of hours. This will give you a 1 1/2 lb cut-perfect for building thin coats. On your 4" X 12" test piece load your brush and starting in the center of a 4X4 square quickly spread the shellac in straight line stokes with the grain-do not drag the brush over an edge-wipe off the edge of the board. This process 3 times will cover your board and on the first few coats the first square will be dry to the touch and can be immediately re-coated in the same fashion-do this three times for a total of three coats on the board and let dry for twenty minutes. Very lighty-no downward perceptible pressue-sand the surface with 400 wet/dry paper-use dry. A very slight whitish powder will appear where there were high spots that you could not even see. Wipe with a clean soft cotton cloth and proceed to add three more coats the same way-you will at this step begin building a perceptible finish coating. Again let dry for twenty-thirty minutes and repeat the scuff sand, wipe and coat again. During all of this dip the brush in the shellac and allow a second for any excess to run off-do not drag the brush across the glass edge-you want the brush fully loaded-it is still only very little finish that you are applying. Your stokes should be quick but soft-do not press or overbrush too many times-just even the load and move on. Immediately brush any drips that hit your surface or they will dissolve the underlying finish and create a "crater". At some point you will build the finish to where you may begin to feel a little "drag" on the brush. Each succeeding coat the alcohol partially dissolves the preceding coats to the point where you have finsh slightly impeding the bush. Unless your are very experienced in "brush feel" this is a good place to stop. In a non-humid environment( 40% relative humidity or less) allow your finish to dry for an hour or two to be safe.
Do not be concerned at this point if the finish looks somewhat uneven-you do not want to see, however, huge drag marks or lines in the finish. When dry you will "rub out" or "finish" the finish. With 4-0 (0000) steel wool put a reasonable dollop of paste wax on the steel wool and you will aggressively rub the wax into the surface. Our instructor placed both fists on top of the steel wool and centered his shoulders over the piece in order to exert maximum pressure and rubbed very aggressively with the grain of the piece. He said you even want to feel the heat of the friction on your hand-it burnishes and hardens the finish as well as evens out the surface imperfections that appeared before rubout. It took him about one minute to rub out a 24" square of veneered mahogany. Buffing with a soft cotton cloth will reveal a deep satiny finish. Sorry for the length of this but I can assure you it works. As in all woodworking it is one of likely very many ways to apply shellac but he was adamant about brush quality and avoiding alcohol with excess water and chemicals as the most deleterious to producing a good finish. My grandaughters first jewelry box attests to that fact and it was my first positive experience with shellac after many failed attempts. If you are getting dragging and uneven finish after only three coats I would suspect possibly you brush-even a very slightly stiff one will give problems. You could also be applying too much finish at one time and the denatured alcohol will not help. Stay with it, Bob-the results are worth it!
Just sand a bit with 320 grit, if the overlaps don't work themselves out. Trying to re-wet the shellac with alcohol is fraught with danger--it can work, or it can turn into a holy mess, with the shellac seeming to "rumble".
To avoid these "fat edges" from the brush application, add a good dollop of alcohol to thin the Seal Coat a bit. This also depends on the brush you are using. I like a watercolor wash brush with Taklon gold bristles. This has a very low reservoir--the opposite of a good varnish brush--and puts on very thin films.
Thanks, since I don't have a high quality brush yet I went ahead and applied the first coat with a lint free cloth and applied a very thin coat. I figured less shellac is better than more. I may have been putting it on my test piece too heavy.
I agree that less can be more.
Thanks very for your detailed and very readable instructions, they will help me imensely.
Hi rrausch,
I notice that there has been no answer to your post so far. That's because it CAN'T be that easy - pu-LEASE! (even on a small project). I'm gonna go out and try your method, and if it works, I'll not say a word. It would totally cramp my plans for an HVLP setup. :)
Mike D
Well... if a fellow is doing production woodwork for a living, it only makes sense to get a good HVLP set-up. But I don't do many pieces during the course of a year--and the ones I do are for me, therefore I couldn't see the sense in investing in HVLP. I like shellac, but I didn't want to French Polish the pieces--it would have taken too long, so I looked around at what I had... and I tried out the Walmart sprayer. I don't doubt people are shaking their heads at this idea, but if you only have a couple of pieces to do I suggest you try it. I can't claim that I am the one who thought of this first--years ago I read about an old hot-rodder who used to paint his cars with a bug-sprayer, and that gave me the idea to use a plastic sprayer. The plastic sprayer puts down a wet coat, and if I can help it, I only spray on horizontal surfaces to avoid drips.
Proving, once again, just get the shellac onto the wood, any way you can. Let it harden, level it (easy), rub it out (just a little harder). Beautiful.
Rich, I tried rubbing my pic frame out with the wet 600 grit and also tried the 0000
steel wool. Not much change. The surface feels smooth but if you hold the piece in the light i can see some drag marks from my cloth application. looks like I need to get that sprayer to finish the project off?
It sounds like the last coat of finish was not level sanded before "rubbing out." Level sand with 320. I consider anything above 320 to be "rubbing out." The last level sanding, always with a sanding block, can be done dry or with 320 wet-or-dry paper and lubricant. Once the surface is absolutely flat and uniform, then use successively higher grits of paper on a block with lubricant or use steel wool. Rich
I've also had very good results using an inexpensive($99) hvlp gun. I use the wagner fine spray. In fact I've even sprayed SW pre-cat laquer with it and have had results almost as good as with my Graco hvlp gun.
I've actually gone out and bought another one for a job were I need to spray seal coat tinted with transtint dye. Worked great. And there is an added plus, the plastic gun is so light your arm doesn't get tired from holding up a heavy metal gun.
The info has been flowing back and forth like wet shellac! I for one have learned a great deal reading all the posts.
I would like to share a shellac finish recipe with you all. The finish was called '' Old English '' finish by the finishing foreman in the millshop I worked at ( a while ago). It can be applied by brush or spray, but really shines when applied by brush. I will not get into the details that have been so well covered in the previous posts.
Apply the shellac of your choice. Think of it as removing the excess shellac rather than painting or putting it on the wood. Allow to dry and use fine lubri-silibide paper to remove the inevitable imperfections caused by airborne dust etc. Repeat the process until the finish is as deep as you would like it to be. Sand once again with the finest lubri-silibide paper you can find, and then rub out with industrial grade 4-0 steel wool (it is finer than the domestic stuff ) using boiled linseed oil as the lubricant (the oil can be thinned with mineral spirits if it is too thick). Wipe and polish briskly with soft uncolored cloths. Caution: follow the rules for avoided spontaneous combustion of the wet steel wool and cloths when you are done. The resulting finish is a beautiful deep satin finish that warms the heart and begs to be touched. If you want to darken the wood, apply a coat of oil first, rub off the excess and allow the piece to dry overnight. Scuff sand with very fine lubri-silibide paper and then follow up with the finish mentioned above. JL
Don't understand all the talk of gallons of alcohol and lbs and lbs of shellac. Shellac flakes have a very long shelf life as opposed to the short shelf life of mixed shellac (pre-mixed or home made). I buy the flakes and denatured alcohol and mix the quantity I need for the one project on hand; anywhere from a coup[le of ozs to a pint or more. It is ready in 24 hours with the density I need. I rarely brush it on and prefer wiping with a cloth pad. Its fast drying characteristic allows one to apply several thin coats per day and wip[ing rarely needs any sanding between coats.
Datow
Datow,
"Pounds of shellac to gallons of alcohol" are the units of measure used to describe "cuts" of shellac.
Any other units can be used which are the same ratio. For instance, while a 1 lb cut is technically 1 lb of shellac to 1 gallon of alcohol, so is 4 oz of shellac to 1 qt of alcohol or 2 oz of shellac to 1 pt of alcohol.
Rich
I think i'm going to try the Seal Coat first since this is my first shellac attempt. I do have a dye question. If after my first coat of dye and I would like a darker shade I will need to add more dye to the alcohol, correct? Additional coates of the same mixture does not darken the wood. Am I correct?
Additional coats of the same dye mixture, after the first has dried, will darken the wood, slightly. Additonal applications of a more concentrated solution, will, of course, darken the wood more. Rich
Rich, what is a normal drying time between dye coats . I am going to apply it with a spray bottle I think. Small project. Just a picture frame.
The best time to work out the dye concentration is on scrap of the same wood as the project. The wood must be prepared the same way as the project, and the colors can only be judged after a coat or two of the top coat are applied. This experimentation is the only place you you should have surprises.
How long between coats, if you must, depends heavily on the drying conditions. If you have warm, low humidity spaces then maybe as short as an hour. It should feel dry, and be at room temperature, no longer being cooled by evaporation.
There are certainly places for multiple coats of dye, often after one color has been partially sealed by a wash coat of shellac or other finish.
dooah,
My experiance has been in using gallons of 3# cut zinssers. The results so far exceeded my experiance with other finishes for ease of use and results that I couldn't believe it.. I don't make little boxes, I need as much as 5 gallons at a time.
IF all I wanted to do is little boxes I might be tempted to deal with the mixing of flakes, but since I can buy premixed 3# cut Zinssers cheaper than I can mix the same from flakes I'll continue to ignore all the advice about mixing my own..
Now if someone will please sell me flakes in bulk I'd certainly revise my decision..
Metod,
Yes, I think these LVLP units will work well with small compressors. I've been wanting to use a LVLP gun and I'm going to buy these. I won't be able to report on how they work with a small compressor for about a month. But even the Home Depot HVLP worked with my small compressor.
Rich
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