I build my wife a Stickley inspired cheval mirror for last Christmas. It was unfinished at the time. Since then I have worked on & off trying to apply a pigmented shellac finish with poor results. I cannot work fast enough to keep a wet edge around the frame. I recently tried spraying and that didn’t work either. So, I am in the process of stripping off all the shellac. I want to try again, but I’m stumped on how to apply the finish.
I live in Grand Rapids, MI … which used to be the furniture capital. I have tried to locate someone in town that works with shellac finishes, but all the current finishing shops I have talked with don’t use shellac anymore. If anyone knows of someone near me that would be willing to show a beginner how to apply shellac, I would appreciate the tip.
Otherwise, does anyone know how to apply the shellac or where I can research how to apply it ??? Yes, I have spent hours scouring the internet to find information, but nothing I’ve tried has worked yet.
Thanks,
Mike
Replies
There is an oil-and-shellac technique that may work in this situation. I first saw it described by Jeff Jewitt, but it may be older.
Apply a light coat of boiled linseed oil over the piece, let it sit for ten minutes, then wipe it all off. Now apply the shellac with a pad. The way it works is that the oil provides a bit of lubrication to the pad, even as the shellac begins to dry. In essence, it's quick-and-dirty French polishing. Of course, the appearance of the piece is going to be altered somewhat by the oil, so you need to consider that.
-Steve
Mike,
Looking for info. on shellac application. Simple, use the search engine here and enter either shellac or frenchy! You'll get buried in info.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 11/29/2007 3:03 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Do you mean you pigmented the shellac or you picked up a brown shellac or blonde shellac.
I have been using shellac for years. It is one of the easiest finishes to do.
I prefer spraying, but I brush as well.
If you are mixing flakes you must pulverize the flakes before mixing. This will allow you to use them more quickly instead of waiting days.
I heat up a mixed batch if I am in a rush. This will disolve them more quickly. I use either my car (sunlight) or my electric stove (on low).. top unscrewed.
I really thin the shellac tfor the first couple of light coats. Then I will go thicker depending on the results. I mix different color shellacs for the desired color.
BTW zinser is a very good shellac too. So you don't have to mix your own. But to get colors other than orange and slightly blonde you will definetly need to mix your own.
If you are adding a TINT make sure it is compatible.
Shellac makes the wood pop like nothing else.. (ok maybe over stated)
It's simple, safe, quick (if not french polishing).
Mike,
I'm pretty sure I understand your problem.. very common..
You see, you're trying to be too neat!
As you discovered it's nearly impossible to keep a wet edge with shellac..
Unless,..................
you do the Indy 500 of painting!
Here's how I approach shellac, see if it works for you..
first I over thin the shellac.. At most I want a 1 pound cut. Use a lot more denatured alcohol than they call for.. That makes a really watery mixture that runs like crazy.. Use that!
Flood the first coat on.. I mean really flood it on and let it run since it's so watery it will flow right out and not leave those little drips we associate with runs.
Do it really quickly and don't worry about getting everything.. Flood it on faster than you think you can. If your nature won't let you, pull a Tom Sawyer and get some kid to slop it on for you.. ;-)
Do Not ever go back and get missed spots! just let them be. What happens is the next coat melts into the first coat and levels everything out..
If the shellac doesn't dry inside of 15 minutes you have too much shellac and not enough denatured alcohol..
now when it's dry take your hand and feel the surface.. Those little nubs that are raised are normal but you'll want to sand them off.. use 220 grit sanding block please don't use your hands!
I'm serious as a heart attack on that subject.. always, always, always! use either a sanding block or a sanding sponge.
It's really quick work! about a second to a second and a half per sq.ft. Don't try to"fix" things because you're wasting your time.. the next coat will melt the first coat and the third coat will melt both previous coats..
Careful around edges.. It's extremely easy to sand thru them. this is real lick and promise kinda sanding.. lightly please!
check now to ensure that you've removed all the nubs and then do another indy 500 of painting.. I mean flood it on just as fast as you can !
don't worry about runs drips or errors..
flood it on.. quickly and never go back over I'll repeat that.. never go back over!
This coat will take 30 minutes to dry. When it's dry check for nubs again and if you find any just sand them off. You don't have to sand the whole thing.. Just for information a single sanding sponge lasts me about 500 sq.ft. so it's well worth your money.. it will conform to curved surfaces easily and still not leave the tell tale grooves that your fingers do..
Then flood the final coat on just as fast! It will take an hour to dry.. At this point you decide if you're happy or you'd like more..
Let me tell you more is not better!
Shellac starts having issues as you build up coats (not to mention each coat takes twice as long to dry so it's one hour, two hours, fourhours, eight hours etc.. )
You have a choice though here.. you can accept it as is, either color sand the finish, or you can french polish it..
French polishing yields the finest finish of all while color sanding will yield a great finish in about a zillionth of the time..
That's it.. speed is your answer! speed and thin..
let me know..
PS if you have plenty of shellac on your project you might just take some denatured alcohol and flood it smooth.. just try dipping a nice clean soft brush in denatured alcohol and flood it on.. it'll smooth down enough to decide if you want to strip it or go on with color sanding or french polishing..
Frenchy,
I know you have said before that you have never had shellac go bad on you but, if any coat of shellac that you applied is taking an hour or more to dry, much less 4 or 8 hours, then your shellac is to old and will not provide nearly as much protection as fresh shellac would. I could apply a 4 pound cut as a fourth coat (not that I would) and still have it be dry to the touch in 15 to 20 minutes.
Rob
Edited 11/29/2007 7:04 pm ET by Rob A.
Love your method of shellac application, but what is color sanding. Thanks
"Color sanding" is a term apparently used in autofinishing. In woodworking we call it "rubbing out", a much more descriptive term.
truck8
Steve is right, it comes from automotive finishing. It's the process of smoothing out the finish. You start with 320 and sand until you have a uniform matt finish (no shiney spots) you absolutely must use a sanding block or sponge. Then grit by grit you resand the matt with finer and finer grit untill you reach your final grit (4000)
Do not skip a grit! each grit takes less and less time, Imagine that you are sanding down the mountains. The first sanding 320 grit gets the mountains flat, now each grit flattens the peaks left by the previous grit, you don't want to sand any deeper than the valley's left by the first sanding. As you get towards that 4000 grit the paint will once again start to take on a sheen and eventually a shine.
Once you've reached this stage you can polish the paint or as Steve says, rub it out.. same procedure is called for, start with relatively coarse polishing paste and work towards your application of wax.
The advantage of color sanding is that you will wind up with a glossier, deeper shine than you can get with just a regular application of shellac.
It's like the differance between a glass smooth lake and one that has slight ripples on it. If you are looking down thru the water you can see deeper with a glassy smooth lake than one which has slight ripples on it.
One thing, though. You have to build a fairly substantial thickness of the shellac film before you can go through the full rubbing out process, especially if you run through all the grits from 320 to 4000. If that's the plan, and it does yield a very nice finish, use a heavier cut to build that film. Trying to get there with shellac at under 1 lb. cut will take almost forever.
I usually am able to start sanding for rub out at about 400 or even 600 grit if the last couple of coats have gone on well. I also recommend skipping a few grits--it will take a bit longer, but you will take off less material. (It wouldn't remove less if you stopped sanding exactly when you had just reduced the scratches from the previous grit to the same as the ones from the next finer grit, but most of us over do it and end up removing more material.)
There is also no need sand all the way to 4000. Past about 1200 CAMI or ISO/FEPA of 2000, or even a notch coarser, you can shift to a polishing compound to achieve higher gloss. I'm old fashioned and generally use rottenstone for the final gloss.
Steve,
Shellac seems to be one of those things which engenders conflict about the correct method.. I've known people who would go toe to toe with you regarding their technique (differant from mine) with shellac. They Insist that their's is the only way it can be done.. trust me they are equally offended with my technique! ;-) Many people insist that shellac from flakes is the only way to shellac and others while they use Zinsser's shellac demand it be heated to near boiling before application..
I've done exactly the technique I describe everytime I color sand shellac. I personally feel that it is flawed to skip grits because that will not yield a really flat surface without going deeper than the original cut with 320.. Perhaps that is why you need a higher build?
I also go to 4000 and wax from there.. But wood working is filled with differances and as the french say Viv la Differance
Frenchy, I can see that both of you are correct, "dependre de la pression au papier de verre".
Thanks for all the good info on color sanding, and thanks Frenchy for info on the thinned shellac Indy 500 method of application. I use it today on a cherry cradle I just made and it worked slick. Do I understand that the 3 thinned coats will be OK to color sand now?
truck8
Tentative yes.. it's easy to oversand if you don't know how much to sand, the technique calls for a first sanding with 320 to produce a matt finish. From then on the sanding is very light and does not go any deeper.. all you are doing is flatening the peaks left from the previous grit. Use great care at corners, I try to avoid them as much as possible because it's so easy to go thru.
I've found more success when I wait 30 to 60 additional days, the shellac seems to get that much harder and it's not only a faster job but the sand paper doesn't clogg.
The one nice thing is if you over sand just add some more shellac. New melts right into old!
I suggest you give the extra thin "system" a try and report back with your results. Use a large enough scrap for the test to get meaningful results and prepare it carefully like you would do for a real project.
In my opinion, the chances of avoiding cut through during the rubbing out process are nil starting with such a very thin finish. Shellac of 1 lb. cut--a bit heavier than the cut Frenchy recommends--is only 8% solids. (Brush on varnish is between about 40% and 60% solids.) Assume that through some magic you could apply 4 mil thick wet films, about the same as with a full strength varnish. After three coats, and assuming that none of the solids penetrated below the surface level of the wood, after three such coats the total dry mil thickness would be approximately 1 mil or .001" thick. For comparison, the average grit size of P320 sandpaper is 1.8 mils and 320 CAMI paper has grit of about 1.4 mils.
Here is a link to a web page that will tell you all you need to know about shellac application. You can try Frenchy's method if you like, I admit I have never tried it, but you should know that it is unorthodox as hell and plenty of people have applied shellac successfully without over thinning.
http://johnjacobmickley.net/Shop%20Pages/Finishing%20Frame.htm Click on the shellac link under the "Finishes in my shop" header on the left hand side.
Rob
Rob A.
I don't doubt that you've never tried my approach and frankly I don't think you'd like it or need it..
Please note the last part Need ? You can do a nice job painting on shellac because you are skilled (gifted) enough to be able to do it as you are.. Good for you!
I can't, nor can many people. Few will admit it but if you were to quietly ask most oil users they use it because it requires rags which they feel they can control a rag much more than a brush..
My method takes the control issue away.. Is it a crutch? Sure but it works! and hopefully people will use shellac over oil because of both it's perminance and the protection it offers.
I also like the quality of a shellac finish over a oil finish but I accept that's a personal matter..
I think we are both in agreement that the ultimate finish would be a French polish finish, but Few have that sort of dedication to perfection that they would go through that effort to achieve.
I will accept that I'm out of the normal and in a perfect world everybody would have your level of skill and experiance.. Hopefully a few will use my approach instead of settling for an oil finish..
I really don't understand the problem with applying Shellac with a brush. I am far from an expert on this but I have gotten quite reasonable results. I use Zinzer Sealcoat straight out of the can, without any thinning, etc. Actually, it gets thicker as I get to the bottom of the can (evaporation of thinner over time). I then dump a little of the alcohol I use to clean my brush in into it and stir it up. Everytime I use it, I get an excellent finish. I can see a few brush stroke, occasionally ... so I sand them out and put on another coat. If I want a really really nice finish ... glossy but not rubbed, I buy a can of spray Zinzer and give it a thin coat. Looks great!! Simple to use.
Barry in WV
Edited 11/30/2007 9:08 pm ET by Anderson
Edited 11/30/2007 9:09 pm ET by Anderson
Edited 11/30/2007 9:10 pm ET by Anderson
I like starting from flakes. I use a super thinned out version. about a tablespoon of flakes to a pint of denatured alcohol. I mix in a glass drink bottle like a Snapple bottle. I simply put the flakes in then the alcohol and let the flakes dissolve, about an hour or so. Any remaining junks on the bottom that havenn't disolved yet I simply shake the bottle and let it sit a while longer. When it is all uniform I grab about a 6" square section of clean white T-shirt and fold it over into a 2"" square several layers thick. I heavily wet the pad and go at it. Usually in rows with the grain across the surface rewetting the pad as I go along to keep it pretty damp (but not dripping wet). It's not uncommon for me to apply the shellac in this manner upto a couple of dozen times and over the course of 3 or 4 days, each time waiting for at least an hour before applying again. BTW, I sand after the 2nd application and again as needed if I fill any nibs. By the time I've put the stuff on for the 6th or 7th time I usually don't need to knock it back anymore. When I'm happy with the build I stop and let it cure for another day and then I apply abeeswax finish.
I've tried the stuff out of the can on occassion but much prefer flakes.
Hi Mike,
There's lots of ways to properly apply shellac. I like to try more than one way of doing many things as part of my continuing education into the joys of woodworking.
To that end, I recommend Frenchy's method to you as part of your education. The very nice thing about his method is that it allows you to gain a pretty intuitive understanding of the medium, at very little risk to your project.
Simply put, Frenchy's way is very forgiving. Screwing it up - - doesn't screw it up. Let it dry, sand it lightly, and go at it again.
And, if you follow it through, for about 4 or 5 successive steps, I think that you will be pleasantly surprised at the end result.
If, on the other hand, you just hate it - - you won't have to "strip" (chemicals, scraping, bleah!) it - - just take it outside with a couple of gallons nice, fresh denatured alcohol and wash it off.
At that point all you'll be almost back where you started before you started finishing, except that you'll have a nice even seal coat upon which to build whatever does please you.
Enjoy!
Mike D
Mike,
You've gotten a number of replies here. Actually I'm surprised there aren't more. Shellac is the favorite finish for many of us, and we all have "favorite" ways to apply it. There are many, and each will work, once the shellac realizes you know what you're doing.
Rather than try to give you some special instructions that I think are foolproof, and rather than your trying to decide between a bewildering variety of suggestions, it would be best for you to tell us what went wrong with your attempts.
You said that you could not keep a wet edge. That's a very common problem, and it's easily overcome. But you also said you sprayed. Spraying is the only method I use. I think that once someone discovers how to spray finishing material, he or she will never use any other method.
But what exactly went wrong with your job? What shellac did you use (mixture, color, etc)? What was it about spraying, or the other techniques that did not result in the look you wanted? Runs, drips, sags, unevenness, blotching?
It's very possible that you can completely (and easily) correct the problems without removing the present shellac film.
Rich
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