Architectural elements in woodworking
Morning Folks,
I want to know more about this subject.
I sense that architecural elements are deeply rooted in woodworking, especially furniture. Do these elements also influence artsy fartsy stuff? Most books that I’ve read on woodworking make more than casual reference to architectural elements in many designs.
What tripped my trigger is building our new entrance door and watching an episode of This Old House. A visit to the Parthenon in Memphis by the host and a good look at a Greek Revival built by an architect got my mind thinking.
Now I want to make an Acorn to embellish the door, nothing too fancy. I’d really like to hear more, especially methods of incorporating these elements into designs.
Mebbe I should explore making a Greek Revival birdhouse for Mark,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Replies
Hi Bob ,
For your new entrance door , as in the main front door yeah ?
Here is the deal , the part you see first do best that would include the door and surround if any . Advise you stroll to the library or book store and have a gawk at some of the architectural stuff and find your style or follow a theme once you find one .
Where most designs are gleaned from is a big question but for your front door balance and good design with the pediment or head or crown or more then just a door .
how bout a b 4 and after for the scrap book ?
dusty
Hi dusty,
For your new entrance door , as in the main front door yeah ?
Yup.
Right now there are two doors - the new one and to be removed old one that came into the kitchen. Right now it's snowing so removal will have to wait til spring. The new one is kinda roughed in at this point and am still wrestling with the final look but making progress.
The sidelites have raised panels so would like to meld that detail with any other embelishments I make. Will have some fun doing some architectural millwork this winter. I have a good supply of rough sawn white oak so that will most likely get the nod for the material.
Up here air lock entries/mudrooms are just about a necessity. One thing has been decided - there will be an acorn pediment on top. Wonder where/what that architectural element came from? An acorn?
Which reminds me - I haven't seen Chip lately...... A chipmunk began frequenting the woodshop for a while when the weather was turning to cold. Almost had him taking sunflower seeds from my hand.
Hope he wasn't a victim of Fuzzball the cat.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 11/17/2008 7:02 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob, I think a book by Graham Blackburn might give you some ideas. If you can't find it, I will loan you my copy.Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
Hi Frosty,
I was in the library the other day and asked the librarian about books on architecture and picked up The Architecture Book by Norval White. They had quie a selection so didn't know what to get. It's filled with definitions of terms - boring so far. :-)
In my research about doors I run into things like architrave, archivolt, vollutes, etc. Just seems like there is a lot more than a casual connection to woodworking. Just read that cabinetwork is the most elegan level of carpentry. Hmmmmm, mebbe I should email Normie?
:-)
Regards,
Thanks for the offer and as I now have a name, I'll go searching for books by Blackburn. I like delving into things like this. Who knows I might get sum culcha on the way...............
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob, For you, I went to the shop to double-check on the Graham Blackburn book. "Furniture by Design" is NOT the one I had in mind and I don't think that book will answer the question you had.I'm sure I've seen another book of his that covers the sort of details you want - but I don't have that one. It dealt with the origin of the Golden Ratio and all of the Greek architectural elements that found their way into furniture.Don't get too much of that "culcha" thing. The neighbors might start to shun you.Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
dusty,
how bout a b 4 and after for the scrap book ?
Oh yeah, will do. Right now it looks like, is it behind door #1, door #2 or door #3? The weather is gettin cold and I'm not all that excited about making a big hole in the wall tearing out the old one right now. It'll have to keep til spring.
The neighbor thinks I'm making a house out of doors! Fire department likes sit though!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Another thing to consider. The acorn--along with any other symbol--MAY have a historical connection to superstition, religion, heraldry, and the like. It may have a regional history to early settlers in New England.
For example, the rooster is a symbol for food--or fine dining--in French tradition. So you might see an image of a rooster in the kitchen or dining room.
Gargoyles protect the house from evil spirits, and so on.
I would love to know of a reference book on the subject.
doorboy,
Interesting - I'm hungry for more. Will do some Googling tonight. And all this time I thought acorns were a gesture of goodwill to chipmunks........ Gargoyles scare the wife so most likely won't have any of those.
I shot the only rooster we ever had - but not for food. The dang thing woulld attack me when I went to the coop for eggs.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
What else would you expect the rooster to do! You were in there stealing his children to be!!! :)
Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
Hi Bruce,
Well all I can say is that dagburn rooster otta know he shouldn't bring cockspurs to a gunfight! Reminds me of a scene from Indiana Jones - Raiders.
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Wineman,
Yup that's what I think too. Now I want learn how to relate the two together. Perhaps a better statement would be how to incorporate architecture into design of furniture?
Still larnin,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
You are about to slide down another slippery slope!
I would recommend both "Classical Architecture: a comprehensive handbook to the tradition of clcassical style" by Robert Adam ISBN 0810931664 and "The Builders Jewel; or the youth's instrucor and workman's remembrancer: explaining short and easy rules made familiar to the meanest capacity for drawing and working" by Batty Langley and Thomas Langley republished by Kessinger publishing http://www.kessinger.net
The Adam book has better explanations, but the langley book is better in how to use the classical form. Just be aware that the langley book was written back in the days of f for s in printing so it is slow reading (or flow reading).
Mike
Bob,
If you are interested in Phi, or the golden ratio;
I would suggest "the Golden Ratio" by Mario Livio ISBN 0767908163
Extremely readable, even though it is a book on mathematics.
Mike
Mike,
I pretty much make things using a 1:1.6 ratio which I believe approximates the golden ratio. That whole thing seems kinda fluid to me cause I seem to eyeball it then make adjustments anyway but 1:1.6 gets me close.
Then along comes that Fibonacci (sp?) character and I lose it all. He was into sizing drawers wasn't he?
Regards, Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,I have a great book called, "Carving Architectural Detail in Wood" by Frederick Wilbur. It is a very nice book, and has a lot of historical background on architecture, and how it influenced woodwork styles. Of course, it also shows you how to do some of the carving. YOu can buy this book on Amazon, or you can send me a large bag of hundred dollar bills and I'll send you my copy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
YOu can buy this book on Amazon, or you can send me a large bag of hundred dollar bills and I'll send you my copy.
Ahhhh, how 'bout a lifetime supply of Granite Flakes? Or better yet, I'll send ye all our extree eggs!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Yeah, Fibonacci relates to drawers summat, but, for graduated drawers you dont need math at all, just two layout dividers.
Say you want four drawers in your carcase. That means 3 drawer dividers right? Okay, now often the drawer size increases by a divider as you go down, so the top drawer is 1 drawer tall, the second is 1 drawer plus 1 divider, the third is 1drawer plus two dividers, and the fourth is 1 drawer plus 3 dividers.
Total is 3 + 0 +1 + 2 + 3 dividers, or 9 dividers. So take a set of dividers, the layout type, set them to the drawer divider width, and from the top of the carcase walk down 9 spaces. Then using a second pair of dividers, adjust them till the remaining carcase space is divided by 4 (the number of drawers) - this space is the top drawer height.
Now, take the drawer height divider, and mark the top of the first drawer divider (dont you just love the english language?), then take the divider divider and mark the divider width. then one additional divider width and a drawer divider and you have the top of the second drawer divider.
Mark out the second drawer divider with the divider divider, then take two more and follow with the drawer height divider and mark the top of the final divider and mark the divider width with the divider divider. The remaining opening, for the fourth drawer will be three divider dividers plus a drawer divider high.
Voila! Graduated drawers!
Harder to write than to do.
Mike
Jeeeeeeesh, do you work for Bayer aspirin or sumpin!?
I think I might start drinking again.
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hi Mike,
OK, one thing I'm looking for are examples of elements that are used both in architecture and woodworking. Perhaps some info. also on how they can be applied which might be difficult and best left to ones imagination - don't know.
Some examples: A vollute. You might see them atop columns on buildings and adorning one of the ends of bonnets on clocks. You also might see acanthus leaves carved in columns as well as on some period forms.
The cabriole leg; is there an architectural element relating to this form? Yeah I know it came from some old coot watching goats right!? Never did care for goats all that much. They stink and eat everything in sight.
Did furniture makers adopt architectural forms in the furniture/woodwork that they made? I pretty much know the answer to that one - but why? Why the forms that they chose as opposed to some other form or element?
So many questions rattlin around in my cranium. Where did the egg & dart come from? Dentil molding is seen in many different places, not just on buildings, but on furniture also.
To me it seems more like an elusive slope. But that might be another story.
The acorn thing is driving me nuts - pun intended. I want to know how to make one. Can I use MDO for a backer board and mount the elements to it and then nail the whole thing to the wall?
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I think furniture makers followed the building design trends of the time they were in ,thus the Frank Lloyd Wright and Greene and Greene and Gustav and Leopold Stickley and Craftsman style all flow in similar way and were all part of a style .
dusty
Bob,
The volute is based on your old friend phi or 1.6 or golden section. In fact drawing a set of golden section rectangles, and running half circles thru each box is how you layout a volute. The Adam book covers it well, so does the Livio book.
The acanthus leaves are covered in Adam, they are used in the capitals of both corinthian and composite orders.
The cabriole leg is really nothing more than an enlarged cyma curve - again from the classic orders.
Mack Headley wrote an article for FWW wherein he used the classical orders to proportion and build a small table. Came out just like the ones the old guys did in the 1800's - Remember Chippendale recommended a study of classical orders in his "director". More evidence that study of the classical orders was part of the "mysteries" of the craft that were passed from master to apprentice.
Dentil molding is again part of the orders. Egg and dart not directly, but Adam relates them to the orders.
But your acorn has me stumped. I dont know what you are talking about, are you sure it is not a pineapple? That was used in Colonial times as a sign of welcome. Got a picture of one?
Mike
Hi Mike,Good to meet you last weekend.Yes, Chippendale suggested studying the classical orders. I've studied them as represented in his book and other books. I don't find a single mention of the golden mean or printed ratio of the golden mean. In fact, I haven't found it mentioned in a single old text. If one looks at a sector, the drawing instrument used by early designers you won't find a mark on it that represents the golden ratio. One of the key uses of the sector was determining proportion.The ratios of 3:5 and 5:8 are common in old texts and in Chippendale's Director but they're not the golden ratio. They're close but clearly represented as what they are. The golden ratio is a very specific number, usually represented in a form that goes out at least three decimal places. A rectangle either is or isn't a golden rectangle. The Oxford English Dictionary doesn't show a single reference to the golden ratio used for furniture or architecture before the 19th Century. If someone wants to use the golden ratio as a design tool that's fine. I found trying to use it a futile struggle but others are a lot smarter than I am. I do hate to see the perpetuation of the myth of a connection to the classical orders or any early work. But then, maybe someone knows of some early documentation I haven't been able to find.
Edited 11/18/2008 8:18 pm by lwilliams
Larry,
Yes, I agree that the golden section is NOT used much, if at all in furniture or architecture. Mario Livio's book is quite good at debunking that myth.
However, Adam does use it to lay out a volute on page 86 and discusses it further under proportions on page 116. Livio gives the mathematics behind the volute using a nautilus shell as an example. If you want to stretch a point to bending, since phi is used to compute a pyramid, then you use phi when making those chamfered through tenons (grin) since they are basically a truncated pyramid. But really, who lays out a chamfered tenon?
The golden section shows up in paintings, and in nature - five sided symmetry, etc. Simple ratios are most often found in furniture, or to be more accurate, furniture most often shows simple ratio proportions.
Furniture design is interesting, and one can read more into it than is there quite often. The trick is to know enough to work with confidence, and not so much that you are in paralysis by analysis.
It was a pleasure meeting you as well,
Mike
Mike,
Yes, I agree that the golden section is NOT used much, if at all in furniture or architecture.
Uh oh. Guess it's back to the drawing board!
Now I'm really confused. Why was I thinking that the golden ratio IS used?
Are you saying that the QA piece I'm making is all boogered up cause I used it? Well phooey on you. I'm gonna make it anyway! :-)
Mike, I'm just kidding with that last paragraph. Seriously though, as I've said I've seen a lot of pieces that all seem to follow the ratio.
Your divider thang is getting better all the time,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Well Bob; as a design tool, the golden ratio is clumsy and difficult to use. A regular pair of dividers and a rule well easily work for other proportions like the 3:5 or 5:8 that do show up in the Classical Orders and other early texts. Good design is difficult enough, why complicate it with awkward math?There are other issues with the golden ratio. If all desks were designed with it, they'd all be basically the same size because they all need to be about the same height. The same thing with tables. If a case piece is designed on the face with a golden ratio, the sides will be square and a square is usually avoided in furniture design.The idea of designing by the golden ratio has gained a lot of traction because of a bogus claimed connection to the Classical Orders. Maybe I've missed it in Vitruvius, Palladio, Chippendale and other references on the Classical Orders. Can you point me to something that shows a connection? The results of working to 3:5 or 5:8 are close to a golden rectangle but they're not golden rectangles even though some would claim them to be. I don't care rabbets organize their sex lives around the golden mean or anything else. It doesn't make it part of the Classical Orders and I can't find any connection to them.
Oh, dear, a truly ancient and hoary argument, that of the Golden Ratio. Simply put, there are relationships and harmonies that appear to exist in nature that when modeled in mathematics seem to approximate the Golden Ratio. There are also various works of art and architecture, and even furniture, and appear to employ the ratio or at least approximate it. Lots of these things are not based on single Golden Rectangles, but on multiples in different sizes, some inside, some derivative.So, it wouldn't be necessary for all desks to be the same if they used Golden Rectangles, so long as they didn't just stick with the simple shape.
Larry and ALL,
Can you point me to something that shows a connection?
OK, let's suffice to say that I don't know what I'm talking about. My intent in starting this discussion was to find out about architectural elements in woodworking only. If this topic also involves the Golden Ration well is it possible to separate the two? Should I have asked How does one use the Golden Ration in the process of incorporating architectural elements into woodworking?
And please everyone, I'm not trying to start a debate over the two. If I've stumbled onto a topic that makes folks fur stand on end well then I say let the fur fly!
I see hints all over the place that they (architectural elements) are used, or seem to be used, to me. I'd like to know more about how they are incorporated into woodworking. Should I be thinking architectural elements = Classical Orders?
Do the classical orders involve the Golden Ratio? This question might be considered absurd on my part. I'd just like to focus on the elements not the Golden Ratio. Maybe it's not possible to separate the two.............
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Chippendale recommended a study of the classical orders in his "director".
Mack Headley has written, designed, and built pieces to a classical order (there are five).
The Golden section, or phi, is NOT in the classical orders directly - ONLY in that the volute, which is found in the Ionic, Corinthian, and Composite orders, is most easily APPROXIMATED, using dividers and the golden section.
Beyond this use in marking out a volute, the golden section is not regularly used in furniture design. Not to say it does not occur, but a proportion of 8 to 5 is easy to layout, and is 1.6 to 1. The golden section is 1.618... to 1. Very close, and consider how precisely, to how many decimal places, you built your last case? It is possible that wood movement alone would blut the difference between the two ratios, and the solid numbers are FAR, far, easier to layout.
But having said all that, it finally comes down to what appeals to your eye. Over time these classical orders have been a good GUIDE to what appeals to many.
There was a famous boat designer, Olin Stephens I think, who stated that a "boat should not be too pretty, it should have one feature that clashes, to catch the eye"
Dont design by numbers, sketch what appeals, and if necessary, refine using tried and true proportions.
Its only wood!
Mike
Great post Mike , and I fully agree that regardless of the numbers or where the bubble is , it's best to do what pleases the eye .
regards dusty
If fiddling with fractions leaves you cold, LV sells some Phi rules that do some of the work for you: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=57625&cat=1,43513
Jim
Hi Larry,
I've seen references to the appearance, perhaps very subtle, of the classical orders of arcitecture in in a magazine called Interior Design by Abercrombie Stanley (whoever he is).
In architecture it's sometimes quite obvious but I wonder if there is any connection to, let's say furniture? Perhaps I'm being vague but it is not intentional but rather more from ignorance with respect to design.
Proportions to me are nore toward what is pleasing to the eye rather than strict conformance to a rule/ratio. I usually start with a ratio of 1:1.6 and may not end up exactly there but usually pretty close.
With that in mind should parts within a case piece also maintain that same rough proportion? I've looked at many classic furniture forms and mst are pretty darn close to the golden ratio it seems. If I recall the golden ratio is 1:1.618 so I figure I'm close enough.
Please forgive me if I seem argumentative but that surely is not my intent. Guess I'm a dumb old country bumkin but am trying to learn more.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hi Mike,
But your acorn has me stumped.
It is a form of pediment for an entrance door. If you go to http://www.architecturaldepot.com they have several different ones. My pukey dial-up connection is so slow.
When cleaning out the woodshop the other day I stumbled upon an old Ethan Allen mirror that has one on its top. I'll get a pic and post it here for ye.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 11/20/2008 6:08 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,
I see, it is an inverted vase with/without crosshatching on the lip.
No idea of the significance, a pineapple generally means "welcome", but an acorn?
The stylized smooth versions show lower on the page, I have seen, but simply considered them finials.
I assume you are going to make one that is applied to a flat surface (your door)?
If so, I would begin with a split turning, then embellish with carving tools. That would also leave you a spare for practice (or the back door).
I would be interested if the acorn has any significance beyond attractive.
Mike
There are so many "meanings" attached to the acorn that you can pretty much take your pick. The oak was sacred to many major gods, including Jupiter, Thor and a number of Celtic gods. The acorn specifically was associated with the Greek Artemis and the Roman Diana, both emblems of chastity, though the acorn was also a symbol of fertility.
It was a motif in Roman architecture. You can find it on finials in Westminster Abbey and in English medieval churches though it isn't nearly as common as the ubiquitous oak leaf.
Thor the god of thunder was said to have sheltered from thunder under an oak tree, and Thor's oak was a specific tree in Germany used as a sacred site until Boniface cut it down in the 8th century to promote Christianity. Putting an acorn on your windowsill is supposed to protect your house from lightning. Carrying one in your pocket is supposed to bring good luck and prolong youth. It's a symbol of patience, because it takes so long for the tree to fruit. And so on. Personally I think it's used especially in finials because like the pineapple it lends itself to carving and looks good, but I'm a cynic.
Jim
Dear Bob,
This is a very good book on why architecture is what it used to be. : http://www.amazon.com/Old-Way-Seeing-Architecture-Magic/dp/039574010X
It has been out of print for a long time. I was introduced to me by the owners of a "Wedding Cake Victorian" whose home we were working on. I found it very interesting in that it is almost a philosophy... the older way of architecture.
Best,
John
Bob,
Contact the Society of American Period Furnituremakers, http://www.sapfm.org. They seem very knowledgeable in the line of questions you are asking, and they seem generous with their information. I went to one of their displays in Savannah, and was impressed!
Now that you are snowed in you will have plenty of time to study. It will be frigid here (SE GA) tomorrow morning, 28 predicted-one of the coldest days in years. It last snowed in 1989.
Pete
Edited 11/18/2008 9:33 am ET by PCM
I have been working on a design for a front porch and found a great book on architectural elements and their use. The book is Get your House Right by Marianne Cusato. The book has an excellent section on the five orders of architecture. While the book is primarily for classical residential architecture, many of the ideas on proportion and use can be applied to furniture design.
Robert
Robert,
Thanks, I've added that to my research list. Winter is coming so will be reading much more than usual, and carving and working in the woodshop making the acorn for the front entrance door.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
No designer here. I just wing it.
Maybe something in here.
http://pergatory.mit.edu/2.007/resources/FUNdaMENTALS.html
Fun read anyway.
AND maybe..
http://bellcr.com/wp-content/FurnDesignProcessBook.pdf
I may even read this one.
And if you are like me.. I would look here and scale from what 'I liked' that I found.
http://www.greenbridgedoors.com/asp/at-a-glance.asp?PageNum=1&PageType=Entry_Doors&SubType=Wood_Doors&gclid=CLf3-pbvhJcCFRJdxwod7WF9dQ
I wound NOT copy the design. However I would use the basic design for scale and proportions.
EDIT: I was looking at the doors in the link above. I have made replacement doors for very old houses. I doubt I could even have come close to the links prices just buying the raw wood. Much less the glass and whatever. Then I would have to make and finish it for free!
Edited 11/20/2008 6:16 pm by WillGeorge
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled