I’m building a display cabinet for our local Historical Society, and want to know what type of stain and finish to use on the inside of the cabinet for archival purpose, that would be best to use. Oil based or water based stains? Poly emits gas so should I use shellac or is there a better product, that has stood the test of time? They might be displaying paper documents and or metal objects I’m not sure what will be displayed.
They have a low budged and would like it to look like walnut to blend with other shelfs they have, I’m wanting to help them out, so I’m thinking of using Maple and stain it walnut. Is there a better wood to use.
Anyone have knowledge in this area please advise me.
thank you
Replies
I don't think it much matters what type of stain and finish you use. I've worked in the exhibit/display industry for 11 years now and I've never had a museum stipulate a particular type of finish for archival purposes. All of the finish work I've done has been either a lacquer product or a conversion varnish if that helps. But as I say, none of them have ever stipulated a particular finish except to meet environmental issues like a visitor's center I did a couple years ago that is in Northern Alaska and the finish needed to be able to cope with the extreme temperature swings.
As for wood types... I'm fond of Alder as a medium for making something look like another type of North American hardwood. Maple is certainly a more durable wood. But it's also more difficult to stain for the same reason - it's hard and dense. Particularly if you're trying to get it really dark. It's certainly doable! Just a bit less user-friendly. Of course I'll happily defer to someone who has experience creating a Walnut look-alike. I've never tried it. Plenty of other woods, but not Walnut.
Hope that helps.
outyonder,
If you need to match existing walnut, why contemplate using maple and trying to stain it to match (which will never really happen)? Use walnut.
As far as a finish to use inside a cabinet, the best, and safest finish is shellac, as you assumed. Any stain under shellac will be sealed by the shellac, so there is really no need to consider the type of stain, but I would stay with water-soluble or alcohol soluble dye.
Laquer such as nitrocellulose can outgas for a long time, as can oil-based varnishes and a closed cabinet can have residual solvent odors for years from these. Catalyzed lacquers or varnishes are better, but there's no beating shellac for the interior of a cabinet as an inert finish.
Rich
Shellac is by far the better finish for inside since it is best at sealing the natural wood acidic fumes. (I believe some two part polyurethane finishes may work OK, but that adds about $60 to the budget right off the bat.) And, here is where some film thickness really does count. This can be particulary important for papers and for fabrics.
Walnut (or butternut or mahogany) is the only thing that will really look like walnut. If you do need to darken some other wood use a water mixed aniline dye. After the water evaporates there is no binder to continue curing and outgassing.
Metallicized dyes use a binder? That's news to me.
Aniline dye was meant to be generic to include TransFast and TransTint. 0I don't know that any of the Lockwood or Arti are truely aniline derivatives anymore. My intent was to rule out stains. Even waterborne pigmented stains have binders that have a chemical curing process.
Ah... got ya. You're right about wipe stains too. They all have binders or one sort or another.
Thanks for all your input, I posted to Peter Gedrys, he suggested mahogany or red gum, as for color and finish to use water dyes with a shellac finish on the inside of the cabinet.
I'm going to take another look at my qoute to see if it would be more cost efficent to use walnut and save on the finishing labor.
Don
Then why did you even bother asking here? That's exactly the advice you got in the second reply to your question. Rich
Rich you are correct that is the advice you gave me and due to your response it made me stop and look at why am I trying to use another wood. From other responses I've seen on this board not everone who post here is as knowledgeable about different subjects as you are. For future reference, should I delete my posting when I get a answer from you or not try to go to the ask the experts section. I'm trying to help the society, and at least brake even for my labor. As for using an interior finish I honestly wasn't sure what effect shellac would have the object the society would display in the cabinet and was there another product that would be better. I came back and posted what Peter had answered for any who might have an interest in archival finishes and should have given you credit also. If I offended your expertise please for give me.
Don
Don,
I didn't ask for credit for the advice I gave and I don't consider myself an expert, although I don't give advice unless I'm pretty darn sure I know what I'm talking about. I'm pretty darn sure I knew what I was talking about in answer to your simple question.
How reassuring, that after you got advice here from people who gave it just because they were interested in helping, you, you went to an "expert," then told us amateurs about the "real" information. Did you think you were educating us? Think about it, Don. Kinda rude. But that's just my opinion. I'm not speaking for anyone else.
For the record, your "expert source" has no fountain of knowledge beyond that which you got from the other kind contributors here.
Have fun.
Rich
Hi Rich,
Concerning your response to Don;
I don't think he meant to get under your skin by relaying the info I posted to him. I'm sorry to see that happen as you always come across as level headed and knowledgeable.
I was wondering why you attacked me though. I never professed to be the "fountain of knowledge". I do feel I have a decent grasp of the subject though. There are many times I see some interesting dialogue going on and I'd like to add a technique or two, but I stay out of it just so not to come across as the authority. Quite frankly I've learned some interesting variations by reading this forum. Educating people is what it's all about. It gets boring when you stop learning.
Anyways' hope to meet you in July in Las Vegas at the show.
Regards,
Peter Gedrys
Peter, I didn't attack you. This has nothing at all to do with you. Why would I attack someone who has completely agreed with me? It makes no difference to me where he got his "expert" knowledge. What bothered me was that he cheapened the advice of all the contributors here by collecting their offerings, then announcing he had gotten more dependable advice from an "expert." I have always been taught, that if I ask for help from others, to accept it graciously and to keep to myself any disagreement I may have or opinions that may seem to show up the person who has generously offered help. It would have been totally different if he had said, "I've been advised to use shellac and water-based dye for this project, I'd appreciate knowing if anyone else has any other ideas." Yes, I plan to be at the Las Vegas show in July. Be prepared for 95 degree heat at 11 pm. Rich
I personally took no offense at Don asking around. He's not the first and surely won't be the last to ask the same question of multiple sources and then compare the results.
Heck, as far as I can tell none of the rest of you who responded to Don in this thread have the background that I have with museums and not a one of you agreed with my advice. Which doesn't make you wrong, btw. I already have anecdotal evidence that some of the pencil-pushers our company deals with know nothing more about finishes then they could discern from something like the AWI standards. I even had a client (federal government, no less) spec out a "clear stain" once. Now if that didn't prove her ignorance then I'm not sure what else she could have done to better demonstrate it.
All of which is to say that just because I've never had a museum ask for something more appropriate than my usual finish doesn't mean that the usual is good enough for every circumstance.
You gave good advice, Rich. And you had it backed up by another knowledgable source... namely Peter. Meanwhile the guy who spent the day today painting exhibit components for the Naval Undersea Museum - me - learned something about archival finishes. Which ain't saying much I suppose since I didn't even know there was such a thing. But I can assure you that it's a nugget of info that I'll treasure and likely search out more detailed info on. In any case it's sure to impress the pencil-pushers who sign my paychecks with the (cough, cough...) vastness and breadth of my knowledge.
It's all good.
Edited 2/15/2007 7:42 pm by Kevin
Kevin,
I agreed with your advice for a pre cat or conversion varnish finish. It's probably what I would have done.
Speaking of museums, I had a dream job last year at this time. The Morgan Library and Museum ,Madison Ave @ 36th St in Manhattan, underwent a major renovation.This was J.P. Morgans residence, office and library. I got the job to restore a number of pieces (12) of furniture for the period rooms. I talked them out of shipping it to me and and did it there. I did the job with another restorer that was from New York. We worked hard but every once in a while we just stopped and smiled and agreed it was the best room we ever worked in. The library is an amazing room. There are three levels of bookcases that ring the room with some of the best inlay and french polish I've ever seen. The ceiling is spectacular with gilt work and paintings. One of the tables we did is used to exhibit a Gutenberg bible.
It was quite a privilege to do this job. These are the times when I just love what I do. It was kind of funny when I brought my wife there after it re opened. She stood in the library looked around and said "You got to work in here, stay in New York for the week, eat great food.......... Life is good isn't it" I know how lucky I was to be in the right place at the right time.
Take care,
Peter
Peter,
That does sound like a dream job. One of these days I'd love to apprentice myself to a competent professional restorer and learn by watching and doing. I'm good at what I do but I've never done a legit restoration and have only done refinishing (as opposed to restoring) of lower quality antiques. I've had the odd opportunity to refinish high end stuff on the side. But I've been watching the Keno brothers long enough on The Antiques Roadshow to know that shiny and new isn't necessarily doing the owner a favor. I mean, can you imagine seeing a really sharp antique Highboy be valued at $75k and know inside that you are the reason it's not worth the cool half million it would have been if you'd not touched it? I'm pretty sure that would suck, but I hope to never find out just how much.
Anyway... one of my favorite self-deprecating lines about my museum experience is a good news/bad news joke. The good news is that I've done finish work for the famous Chicago Museum of Natural History. The bad news is that it's not in the museum enshrining some important artifact or fossil... it's in the gift shop. It was actually a fun piece to do. A nice curly Maple case custom color-matched to their existing cases. But alas it was really nothing more than a glorified store fixture.
In fact most of my museum work sounds much more interesting than it really is. With this current job we're doing exhibit work in an area that's supposed to look like the control room of an old submarine. Which means that I'm spraying latex paint on MDF panels, casework and an assortment of metal pipes and flanges.
The fun stuff for me has always been visitor centers rather than museums. That's where they indulge my love of higher end finishing more often than not. Unfortunately I only get to do one or two of those a year.
Regards,
Kevin
Kevin,
If you can hook up with someone at some point, even if it's part time, you'll be surprised at what you learn(both good and bad)
I got my start in this quite by accident. I was working in marine construction as a dock builder and hard hat diver. I did that for eight years. I got laid off one winter and needed work. I was knocking on doors and an antique dealer hired me to strip furniture. They wouldn't let me do anything else. They also went out of their way to make sure I didn't see much. A fair amount of dealers have no knowledge of finishing but this old Hungarian and son did. I kept my mouth shut and my eyes open. I went back to work soon but the furniture bug bit me.
I decided to try my hand at refinishing and did a few pieces for me and my girlfriend ( now wife) Friends started asking me to do things for them and I made a few bucks.
That's when I decided I had to really learn and started asking people in the business questions. I would hear of a technique and try it. Sometimes I didn't like what I saw and would ask someone else and would be met with"That's not how you do it......" Get my drift?
I read everything I could get my hands on concerning coatings, resins, formulas, etc. To be sure, learning by trial and (lots of) errors taught me what NOT to do. That's one of the reasons I've been teaching for the last ten years, both at woodworking schools and college. I enjoy shortening someones learning curve. When I see that light bulb go off in their eyes and I know they get it, it's pretty gratifying.
Stay with it, you never know where you'll end up.
Peter
I enjoy shortening someones learning curve. When I see that light bulb go off in their eyes and I know they get it, it's pretty gratifying.
That I can definitely relate to. Within my own sphere of expertise I most enjoy training an assistant. My philosophy is that the closer he is to me in knowledge and skill level the more valuable he is to me. Which I know runs directly counter to the old way of doing things. I've worked for old-timers who refused to pass on anything they considered to be valuable knowledge. Being something of rebel, my chosen way to rebel is to be as nearly opposite to that mindframe as I can be.
About a year or so ago I started working with a new helper at work and one of his greatest liabilities is that he overthinks stuff. As anyone who has done production finishing or painting knows, spraying is a definite skill set all it's own. And I was trying to teach this guy how to spray inside corners so that he didn't stop too soon and not get enough finish in the corner, or stop too late and potentially cause a run or sag on the adjoining piece of wood. He kept spraying slowly and very, very carefully... and having problems with inside corners despite it all. So I decided to change tact and told him that it is easier if you go faster because then your subconscious sorta takes over and your native eye-hand coordination solves most of the issues.
So anyway one day we were both spraying in opposite ends of my giant 40' wide spraybooth and he came over while I was in the middle of spraying a piece and excitedly said, "I get it!" At first I was irritated because I didn't have a clue what he was talking about and besides that I was wanting to concentrate on what I was spraying. When I finished I asked him what the heck he was talking about. Well, he'd been practicing going faster and sure enough his difficulties had resolved themselves and his triggering technique was working flawlessly for him. LOL I loved it! The light had come on, not just intellectually, but experientially too, which is by far the more important of the two! He was just about beside himself with excitement because this had really been bedeviling him for a long time and he'd been massively frustrated at his inability to think his way through it.
Don,
Don't ever be afraid of asking a "simple" question. This forum is about sharing ideas and techniques. It was too bad you were roundly chastized for seeking a variety of opinions, even though you were already given "the" answer.
I look forward to meeting you in Atlanta.
Peter
I have a limited amount of knowledge in this field....... enough to know that the wrong decisions are dangerous, but far more than the average wood-wacker. Offgassing is a real problem in museum display cabinets. One is dealing with an enclosed space and very fragile documents/materials. Shellac is a safe product to use as far as it's own off-gassing, but it does not very effectively seal wood to prevent the wood's off-gasses from reaching the enclosed space. Wood emits acids and manufactured wood products emit forms of formaldahyde. Both of these substances are damaging. I would continue researching this if I were you. Consult with your clients conservator. The Canadian Conservation Institute has a wealth of information. Try: http://www.cci-icc.gc.ca/main_e.aspx
You are being wise to be cautious.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled