thought some of you would find this interesting – I’ve been working getting firewood while gathering logs to Wood-mizer – – I had taken three Ash out of a field margin for some easy quick firewood (wood shed renovation meant I didn’t have my normal supply) – then moved into the woods – I’ve cleaned up some deadfalls for logs/firewood and today worked on a downed Ash – near as I can tell, it stood dead for a while and then fell (uprooted) a year ago or so – 24″ diameter @ 4′, 20″ @44′ – – started to cut up the remains of the top, split the first hunk and was amazed at the color – almost looks like Redwood –
here’s a couple of pictures – the white hunk is wood from the fencerow, it shows 15 growth rings – the red/brown piece is from the downed forest tree -it exhibits 130 growth rings – hard to believe they are the same specie….I had planned to cut a bunch of 2X6’s out of this (and other Ash trees) for framing lumber – may have to revise my plans in regards to the 4 logs from this tree….
Replies
How dense is it? There is a species called pumkin ash that is very low dansity with a lot of heart wood.
I had about the same thing here in N.Mich - cut and milled 2 ash trees that I believed were white ash. They were in my neighbors front yard - growing 20 yrds apart, same age 95 yrs, same leaves & bark, 24" across. One was all white except about 4-5" of dark brown heart same as I've always seen it. The other was all dark heart except a white layer of about 2" under the bark. Thought maybe I had one black ash but it's not supposed to grow around here according to my book.
Go figure -
Dave
David, how certain are you that the darker wood is ash?
David, how certain are you that the darker wood is ash?
well, 98%, not 100% - - the tree is down without any bark - the characteristics of form are consistant - the weight/density is in the right range - the grain is appropriate, this was a very slow growing speciman - - Jim and Dave make the point about different specie of Fraxinus - - according to Deam, there are 7 possibilities for this area, for definative identification I would need leaves/fruit - -
when I split that first round and observed the color, my first thought was 'Kentucky Coffee' - and there are some in the immediate area - but tree/trunk is quite a bit larger than I would expect from Gymnocladus -
I considered Chestnut, not sure I could recognize it if I saw one - but it was always rare/uncommon in our area (NC Indiana) and the chance of this speciman surviving until a couple of years ago has to be remote - there are no suckers -
I'd welcome your speculations or advice on identifying - I have stereoscope and microscope -
David -
I got some Kentucky Coffee Bean trees that are 2' diameter at chest high. Suckers are about 100' tall. Been there over 100 years. I've never cut any of mine but I've seen the lumber and it looks a lot like ash. Makes good furniture/cabinet material.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Kentucky Coffeetree is completely underutilized. It makes great wood and I don't understand why I don't see people use it more often.
Not enough around to be commercially feasible.
Sweet Gum makes nice lumber too.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
>>"when I split that first round and observed the color, my first thought was 'Kentucky Coffee' - "
Mine, too.
What a treat if it were an un-blighted chestnut tree. I'd drive over from Chicago to take that off your hands...!
Regardless of what it is, it must have been a pleasant surprise to see the quality of material once it ws revealed.
tony b.
looks like the experts are leaning toward Kentucky Coffee tree - - in any event, I think I'll have to do something other than make 2X6's out of it -
...a pleasant surprise...
can you believe that I have mixed emotions about it? - - it was quite the feeling when that beautiful color was exposed, but I have been calculating materials and I'll have to fell another tree or two to make up for this one - and I'll have to figure how I want to saw this, into what dimensions, and I'm thinking that I might like it best quarter-sawn - have to find a place to stack and sticker several hundred board feet - - oh, how I suffer!
well, just have to make the best of it... ;>)
David,
I think I can see rays and some vague flecks on the dark wood. Could you take a picture of a clean, smooth cut end grain shot? You might want to wet the end grain prior to the picture.
Dale
here's two picts, one of a round in the field under sunlight - the other under a magnifier, tho the light leaves a little to be desired - - for reference, the light piece is a piece of slow growth ash I cut today...
here's todays work on the farm...
David,
Your 45KB pic of the log's end shows no rays that I can see. Your other picture, 35KB, appears to have rays. If my memory is correct, rays in ash are very difficult to see with the naked eye balls. So, I don't think the 35KB pic is ash. By a smooth cut, I mean with a sharp block plane. We use single edge razor blades to prepare a wood sample to inspect. So, could you do some other pics, with a "smooth cut" one dry and one wet. As you said, better light would be helpful......Dale
sharp plane, huh? - - gotta remember who your talkin' to - here's this pict - I can see it great, getting a picture is a real challenge...
one more time - coming up against the quality of the camera, I'm afraid - - can't believe someone would loan me such a dog... <G>
Thanks for the pic David. I can't really tell from your pic but, I'm still pickin up on rays and flecks. If you'd like to send me a sample I'll take a peek. I'm sure Jon will be willing to pull out his razor and 10x for you. If I had to take a WAG I'd lean toward mulberry.
here's a picture of the log(s) in place and the Kentucky coffee trees in the immediate vicinity
David, judging by photo 45KB in post #11, I think you can write off chestnut. Your earlier posts left me wondering whether it might be Kentucky coffeetree, chestnut, red elm, or ash. However, if you look closely at photo 45KB, you'll notice patches of parenchyma cells (lighter colored tissue) in the latewood (can't tell from the photo, but I presume they surround the latewood pores.) This is more typical of ash that chestnut. As one final clue, look at the pores as they transition from earlywood to latewood. In chestnut, these pores tend to be oval or egg shaped...and they taper, or stream out in radial chains, creating a flame-like pattern. I don't see this in the photo.
Judging from the width of the earlywood pore band (it seems to be multiple pores wide), it's doubtful that the wood could be red elm. Also, it doesn't display the tangential, wavy pore bands in the latewood that is typical of elm.
...So, this leaves us with ash or Kentucky coffee tree as the likely suspects. Now, look at photo 40KB in your next post. You'll notice that the sapwood is extremely narrow, while the heartwood accounts for virtually all of the center of the log. This is not at all typical of ash. It is more associated with either one of the locust-like legumes (this would include coffeetree or honeylocust), or possibly catalpa. Catalpa can be quickly identified by scent. It has a very strong creosote-like odor and it is also much softer than ash or any of the locust-like legumes.
...That's about as far as I can take you on the basis of these photos. I'd need a sample to explore other anatomical clues...since they involve ray structure...and I can't make out any rays in the photos.
Edited 1/15/2004 8:46:09 PM ET by Jon Arno
Edited 1/18/2004 7:45:11 AM ET by Jon Arno
Jon, thank you for your consideration - you're a great resource of the forum - -
Catalpa is an interesting possibility - - there are actually some small ones in the fence row 100' away - I also have a huge old snag right by my front door - I've cut and split enough to be familiar with it - the grain appearance is similar, but color is wrong, and weight is too heavy in my judgement - -
I suppose I could cut another (living, positively identified) tree and compare - there is one outside the fence row that my neighbor farmer would most likely prefer disappear - -
as a practical matter, I think I'm going to have to do something with these logs other than making framing lumber - I'll bet a woodmizer could get 8-900bd ft out of those logs -
thanks - DOUD
That is what is called "american Mahogony" a brown ash, I had this converstion with Jon a few weeks ago..really good stuff..I will Buy what you want to sell..EMAIL ME.
don't know exactly who to address this to, hopefully the interested parties will check in - - I dug into the woodshed and found a piece of catalpa (for Jim) and I brought in a piece of mulberry yesterday (for Dale) and I went out and cut a piece of Honey locust from a small tree I had girdled that is located next to the orchard -
usually I have quite a bit of honey locust in the woodshed, but circumstances are such that I don't right now - the HL speciman is a little deteriorated compared to the others, but the heartwood color is about right for comparison purposes -
so here's a pict - Honey Locust on the left, Mulberry in the middle, Catalpa on the right - -
and Jon, you'll be proud of me, I ordered both of Hoadley's books this morning (Understanding... - Identifying...) - now if I can just stay away from this computer long enough to study them....
Catalpa or Paulowinia is good too, lousy firewood..they use it in Japan for dowry chests beause it is fire resistant..great for solid body guitars..lightweight and a good tone..I still want to land some even if it ain't the ash..
>>"and Jon, you'll be proud of me, I ordered both of Hoadley's books this morning (Understanding... - Identifying...) - now if I can just stay away from this computer long enough to study them...."<<
David, I'm sure it is Bruce who will be the happiest to hear that. He wrote those books back when Taunton's royalty arrangement on books was something to behold...and hold on to. :O)
Both Understanding Wood and Identifying Wood are excellent for beginning woodworkers. Bruce Hoadley is/was a professor at UMass (he's an old guy like me and I think he's either retired or is trying to)...So he writes from the perspective of a teacher, bringing the reader along like a student...a step at a time, assuming the reader has no prior knowledge of the subject. Bruce is also a skilled woodworker/carver (as opposed to just another academic botanist or wood technologist)...so, he thinks of wood as a craft material...and doubtless he's made all the hands-on mistakes it takes to understand the subject from our perspective.
You'll enjoy both of these books.
David,
I received your wood samples today in the mail, my wife thought I won something on Ebay! Anyway, my first thought was brown ash then I notice the ulmiform pattern in the late wood, zig-zag pattern, typical of the elms and hackberry. After comparing the pores and tyloses present and the zig-zag pattern on the tangential surface and some ray flecks that is showy on the elm radial surface I'm going with red elm, AKA slippery elm, Ulmus rubra, I think that is the correct spelling.
The only thing that is odd, the longest sample was about 9" in length and it split very well. Maybe red elm splits easier than American elm, once again the samples were quite short in length. I water soaked a sample of this wood and could smell something similar to a pig pen??
Jon, maybe I missed a picture but all the pic above looks like quarter sawn or edge grain and that is what David mailed me.
I've been after my sawyer to get me some red elm. After messing with this sample and seeing it, I will remind him of my wishes.........Dale
Edited 1/23/2004 1:00:37 AM ET by Dale
Dale, it could be red elm. The color would be right. Check the earlywood pore band. If it's red elm, it should be only one to two pores wide. However, the key clue with the elms are the latewood pores. They form in fine, continuous, concentric bands in association with the latewood parenchyma, giving the lines a lighter color than the background tissue. I couldn't see this in David's photos and the earlywood pore band seemed wider than two pores...but with a sample in hand it would be difficult to confuse red elm with anything else.
Dale and Jon - -
well, it's too much like winter here to work out and this conundrum beats the hell out of working on taxes... so I pushed everything to the back of the table, plugged the stereoscope in and with Hoadley, Deam, and Metcalf/Flint close at hand prepared some samples -
one of the mystery wood, one from an elm that I felled tuesday, and one from a piece of forest grown ash - not sure of the species of either the elm or ash
I feel like part of the problem analysing the mystery wood is the feeble nature of the speciman - growth was so slow and rings so close together that magnified features offered less than adequate information...
I scrounged around and found a piece of firewood where growth around a couple of big knots had resulted in wider growth rings, and cut a small block from that area - I found a comparable area a cut a speciman from the elm, ditto on the ash -
one macro feature that makes me doubt the mystery wood (MW) being elm is the lack of any galleries of the elm bark beetle - common on dead elms, none to be found on the MW - perhaps weathered off...hers's a poor quality pict of one of the many galleries on the elm specimen...
...as to what I observe under the scope; the ash is consistant with Hoadley's description and photo, the nature of the late wood pores are particularly different from the other specimans -
the elm is not consistant with the book or Jon's description in regards to the earlywood pores - instead of a single line, the layer is 4-5-6 rows deep - the latewood pores do exhibit the concentric bands - the width of latewood/earlywood is roughly equal - I am confident of the genus identification - perhaps the earlwood pore feature varies among species?
the MW specimen exhibits earlywood pores mostly two rows deep - the late wood pores do not form concentric bands, rather broken wavy lines - the late wood pores are assemblies of 2-3-4 pores -
I'm still observing the specimens, as I have not done this since college it will take some time for me to analyze and compare the various features -
I would welcome comments from anyone....
I would welcome comments from anyone....
SAve ME a Bunch....LOL..Duane, Thanks David <G>
David, if you'll send me a sample (needn't be any bigger than 1/2" thick X 3" wide X 6" long (that's the standard IWCS sample size), I'll compare it to my samples. I have all of these woods in my collection.
As for the earlywood pore band in the elms, most of them (especially American elm; Ulmus americana) normally have a single complete row of earlywood pores. Red elm sometimes has a band two rows wide...but I've never seen a species in the entire elm family (Ulmaceae) that gets out to 4 or 5 rows.
...and there is this color issue - I've cut a lot of elm over the year of several species and have never seen this color - here's a shot of elm up against the MW...
Isn't catapa more greenish brown?
No, catalpa usually has sort of a cinnamon brown color, sometimes with a grayish hue, but the low density and the scent make it virtually impossible to confuse with ash.
...Also, Dales's thought that it might be mulberry, is another candidate you'd have to consider, given the location and the fact that it's a ring-porous wood...But mulberry is usually a bright yellow in color and even it's long term patina remains sort of a golden amber. The photos David has posted suggest that this wood has more of a reddish brown color. Both Kentucky coffeetree and honeylocust lean more to the warm pinkish brown color. Also, the pores and surrounding parenchyma in mulberry's latewood form radial chains that tend to connect and then tip (as the growing season progresses) into a chevron-like pattern of bands...hard to explain in words, but the latewood in mulberry appears to be "busier" and the rays are clearly visible. The clearest of David's end grain photos doesn't suggest this pattern. The latewood pores seem to be isolated or in small ash-like clusters associated with the parenchyma (the lighter colored non vacular tissue in the latewood.)
If it's either ash or one of the locusts (coffeetree/honeylocust), one of the better clues would be the appearance of the ray flects on the flatsawn (tangential) surface. The rays in ash are fine and virtually impossible to see, because their color pretty much matches the background tissue. In the locusts, they tend to be barely visible in that they are a bit larger and darker than the background tissue. Also, while the locusts are ring-porous, the earlywood band is usually thinner and the demarcation between earlywood and latewood is not as abrupt as in ash. But these are judgement calls and it really helps to have comparative samples of both on hand. There are also microscopic differences, but you usually don't have to take it that far to make the determination.
Edited 1/18/2004 8:38:24 AM ET by Jon Arno
David,
If you can send me a twig sample I can probably Identify the tree. Leaf scars are opposite for ash trees as well as maple,dogwood,horse chestnut, and adjacent for most other N. American hardwoods that you are considering for this study. Instead of going microscopic, I would go macroscopic. I only had a couple of quarters of dendrology in college but we had twig quizzes where we had to identify species from twigs and bark no leaves, flowers or fruit. So identification can be pretty certain from a few good twig and bark samples. However if it is ash, be aware that there is a new pest that poses a problem for N, American ash trees. The emerald ash borer has been found in ash trees in Michigan, Ohio and Indiana. This insect kills all host treees within a few years after infestation so look carefully at the wood,especially if it is ash, and see if you can find any insect damage or active larvae in the wood itself. If so see if you can locate a local agricultural extension officer and report your findings may help stop an epidemic since there is at present no known way to stop this unwanted pest. Sorry I seem to be rambling , but the identification should be quite simple as I said before with a couple of good twig samples.
J.P.
...twig sample....
if I had one, I think this would be a simple ID - - the tree had been standing dead for sometime before it uprooted and fell - - bottom line, nothing left less that 2" in diameter -
the tree was in a rather inaccessable location - I had to build a bridge and get permission from the neighbor to get to the area - as I was scouting, I saw this tree laying down and said to myself - 'that's an ash' - I would have bet money - and I guess it still could be, but this micro examination makes me think it is not -
I'm thinking I will take a 10" Kentucky Coffee tree that is growing in the fence row and see if it matches the this mystery wood - personally, I think that's the most likely now - it's been too cold and windy (and icy) the last two days to get back to the woods - maybe tomorrow -
I am aware of the emerald ash borer, it saddens me to think we are going to lose another important part of our midwestern ecosystem - this globalization thing has a lot of down sides - - a tragedy...
Edited 1/23/2004 8:12:48 PM ET by David Doud
I meant to attach this photo, but forgot - here's what I looked at in the field...
David,
Take a look at this site: http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publications/pbfiles/PB1692.pdf
Notice the drawing of "ulmiform" . These are found above the spring pores in your sample, common to elms and hackberries......BTW, if someone wants to buy it as ash, sell it for ash prices, : ' >........Dale
...if someone wants to buy it as ash, sell it for ash prices...
well...ash right now is rather uncertain to depressed - - with michigan trying to contain the borer, there is a large supply in the close by market right now.... - -
...all depends on whether your buying or selling, doesn't it? a seller would stress that this is much more rare than common ash - -
nervous yet, Duane? <G>
Awe, shucks. You KNOW we're KIN, now right?..Ash prices notwithstanding, it has to be worth your time, and only you can be the judge of it. We'll wheel, we'll deal..Gonna cost me a zillion $ in gas..here it's up to 162....and climbing.
We also got ice comin' you might be more snow than us..staywarm.
well, after some time off to deal with real life, I did a little more work associated with this conundrum - - it's been nasty around here and we are sliding around on a sandwich of ice/snow/ice/snow/ice/snow/ice - - this stuff is gonna be around awhile - - suspended operations in the woods, comin' down the hill is just too exciting...
but I did go out today and brought in a couple of hunks of 'Kentucky Coffee Tree' - I tree that I an confident of the ID - I wish I could say that I put the matter rest, but it is still ambiguous - - the grain would seem consistant, the color is quite a bit different, as one would expect since todays speciman is living and the mystery wood is aged/oxidized - looking at the end grain under a stereoscope, the earlywood pore numbers and distribution is consistant between the samples, the latewood pores tend to be fewer and not in as distinct of bands in the Coffee tree - - on the basis of that, I would say the samples are different species - which basically leaves Elm - but I have a hard time accepting that - just have never seen elm with this color and grain, not to mention 'splitability' -
I'm anxious to see some boards...
here's a picture of the Kentucky Coffee tree on the left and mystery wood on the right-
Jon,
While I was messing around with the "elm" sample I searched on the web for red, AKA, slippery elm. And talking with a good friend of mine it seems red elm is easier to splint than A. elm. I personally never have worked or busted red elm to my knowledge, but once again I'm anxious to get my sawyer to get me a sample load of the stuff.
I don't think Dutch elm disease bothers red elm as much as American elm.......Dale
Dale, yes, because red elm has a broader band of large earlywood pores it tends to be easier to split than American elm. This feature also gives it a little stronger figure on the flatsawn surface. I think it is the nicest of the elms for cabinetwork. All of the other elms range from blonde to sort of a dirty tan, but this species has a darker, very attractive reddish brown color...so you don't have to stain it. Also, it's a little denser than American elm and doesn't dent as easily. None of the elms are praiseworthy for their stability, but red elm is the best of the bunch in terms of lowest overall shrinkage.
...As for David's mystery wood, he sent me samples and even with the wood in hand, my first inclination was that it was one of the legumes...either Kentucky coffeetree or honeylocust. But after getting a good look at the end grain under magnification the alignment of the latewood pores and a few other anatomical features sure does suggest that it is more likely red elm.
Hard to say from the photo but looks like there is not much bark left either. I have never seen Kentucky coffee tree sold as boards. I would be interested to know if that is what it is and how it works. Good luck on your search.
J.P.
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