Greetings,
Well, I am about as green as they come. I am in the middle of my very first woodworking project ever! I have a general question about assembly and finishing and the order in which things can / should be done.
I am buliding two small rolling cabinets for the workshop and have cut all my pieces to size. The sides of the cabinets are frame and panel construction. I am about ready to glue everything up, sand, and finish it. It imediately seems to me that it would be easier to sand and finish the parts while they are apart and I also want to finish the panels differently than the frames that hold them. I foresee two problems at least…
1.) If I sand the edges that comprise the joints (in this case stub tennons) I am afraid that the sanding will ruin the integrity of the joint where the two pieces meet.
2.) I am afraid that the gluing process will either ruin the finish on some of the parts or, worse still, the glue wont hold at all.
Does anyone have any general advice about how or when to decide to finish components of a project in advance, what to look out for, what to be sure never to do, etc ?? If I desire to stain the frame but not the panel what’s the best way to do that?
Regards,
G
Replies
Saucyg,
I'll take a stab at some of your issues, I'm sure others will chime in. First of all congratulations it sounds like two great cabinets your building there.
Others may correct this, but when you say 'finnish' I think of a four step process...staining, sealing, finishing, polishing...you don't need to do all or any of these steps but it helps to communicate if were both on the same page.
I do most of my sanding by hand. Wrap a square block with some sand paper and sand the stiles and rails that way...it'll keep your edges sharp....sand to 180-220 grit.
Use a water based stain and you'll have no problem with glue. After staining put on a coat of shellac (sealing) and keep away from the joints where the glue will go (this is easier than it sounds. Then do your glue up ( I use the fense on the TS to help keep things square). Removing any squeeze out is easy because its sitting on top of shellac. The next step is Finnishing....what ever you'd like.....then the rub out and wax....good luck
Sand and stain/seal the panel before assembly. Avoid glueing the panel tight in the frame, and after the frame is dry, sand the joints flush, and finish.
Thank you kindly Dave and BG.
I am encouraged to hear that it is at least not completely insane for me to want to do some of the finishing in advance. Both of your suggestions and the detailed response from BG was a big help in easing my uncertainty.....Cheers,
G
"Never Look outside of yourself for the blame." - Depak Chopra
G,
It's unusual for a novice to anticipate this kind of problem. You are either very perceptive or obsessive-compulsive. Having occasionally been accused of the latter, welcome to the farm.
But you are correct in your observations. There are times when the mutually-exclusive requirements of the job make the project harder than first imagined. Since you have a lot to learn, be prepared to find that many of the wheels that we use have already been invented, there's no need to re-invent them. That is, there is generally a very good way to do something and a lot of "other ways." Hopefully, you will learn the good ways quickly. But making mistakes and doing things the wrong way is also a learning experience.
Then there are situations which have no pre-determined "best way." These situations require the craftsman to logically work out a series of steps unique to that project. The sequence of joinery/gluinig/staining/finishing is one such situation. In fine work, it is often necessary to meticulously tape mortises and tenons while applying finish, BEFORE gluing pieces together. Or to tape surfaces meant for finish while gluing to prevent glue from maring the surface. Or a combination of those steps.
Often, the inside pieces of drawers or cabinets will be taken to final finish before the item is even assembled.
However, these methods are something you should put off until well after you have mastered joinery and finishing techniques, to say nothing of design. If you pay too much attention to these fine points now, you are really picking nits. And nits will defeat you.
It's good that your first project is something you will use in the shop. Certainly don't be sloppy, but I recommend devoting your efforts to the construction without excessive concern with the finer points of sanding, finishing, etc.
For frame and panel construction, yes, finish the panels (both sides) before assembling the frames. And let the panels float. But glue up the frames and other parts as a unit, learning to avoid excessive glue and glue drips. Learning how to correctly remove drips.
Sand and finish the parts as a unit to experience that process.
And since you haven't developed any prefences for glue yet, use hide glue for this first project, and you'll be a life-long hide glue devotee!
VL
Venicia,
That struck me as a rather sagely response and I appreciate your insight. I have also been accused of obsessive compulsive behavior however I'd like to think that it and keen observation are not mutually exclusive. Besides, I assume that most woodworkers and certainly many great people are, and have been, "obsessive/compulsive". It's easy for me to take such a remark as being complimentary though I do also see the value of "choosing your battles" when it comes to what to concern yourself with.
I appreciate you taking the time to share those thoughts with me.
As for the "Hide Glue", I did a quick search on the net that revealed (other than the ground rabit skin glue) a mix yourself heated variety and a premixed liquid variety such as Titebond(little R-circle thing here)s. Which of these were you suggesting ?Cheers,
G
"Never Look outside of yourself for the blame." - Depak Chopra
G,
Do a Google search for hide glue. You'll find more than you ever wanted to know.
Animal hide glue is one of the oldest glues known. It was used by the ancient Egyptians at least 5000 years ago. It remains in current use by the furniture industry and the musical instrument industry. It is one of the most versatile glues and has a bond strength unsurpassed by almost any other.
No glue is universal, but hide glue comes close. It is infinitely repairable because it can be redisolved in water. Or it can be made waterproof (permanent).
Traditionally it is suplied as "pearls" or granules. There is a wide range of "gram strengths." The highest is the quickest setting, the lowest, the slowest. General woodworking hide glue is about in the low-middle of a 60-600 scale. Pearls are a good grade. Granules are stronger, but quick to set up (very short "open time.").
The dry glue lasts almost indefinitely. To use it, you "add water." A quantity of dry stock is covered with water and allowed to sit for about 6-12 hours. It absorbs water and becomes a rubbery mass. The rubbery mass is then heated in a glue pot to between 130-150 degrees F. It is the right consistency when it runs in a continuous stream off the brush (doesn't break into individual drops).
An hour or so after application, drips can be peeled away like rubber cement. When fully set (24 hours), the glue is as hard as glass. It doesn't react with finishes, sands well, stains well, fills gaps somewhat, does not creep. What's not to like? (Well, as I said, it's not for everything. It grabs fast and complex setups can be a nightmare.)
Liquid hide glues are available (Franklin). They are made liquid with the addition of urea which also makes the joint more elastic and decreases the joint strength (a little).
FWIW this is the website for, arguably, the center of the known hide glue universe:
http://www.bjorn.net/
I'm sure others will add their experiences about this remarkable product.
VL
Just wanted to mention the use of hide glue when doing a crackle finish.A shop is a terrible thing to waste...
To the good advise you have already received I would add that you should do a dry fit up of all the pieces to make sure they fit together properly BEFORE you break out the glue.
As others have said, finishing prep (sanding) and even staining and final coating is frequently done by professional woodworkers. In the shop I was involved with, the finisher was involved in the engineering and assembly planning so that the items could be built in a way that maximized the finisher's efforts.
Always do sanding as soon as you can. For example, whenever I do stile and rail construction, I will sand the face of individual pieces, then sand the glued up frame. Interior panels in frame and panel construction should always be sanded and finished if they are solid wood. That way, unfinished areas do not show when the panel contracts in dry weather. I generally glue composite panels into the frame but I still sand the panel face before assembly.
Another point, for things like cabinets, always consider sub-assemblies. Not only does this simplify glue up but finishing is much easier. I never attach a back panel until the finishing is done. That way I have better access to inside surfaces.
Good thinking. Too many rush to cut and glue without considering the sanding and finish aspects.
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