Hi, hope you can help with this one. I am repairing a drawer front on a dresser drawer. The drawer front is curved, preventing a good “pressing” of the oak veneer. I was thinking of using contact cement. I read some web sites that say not to use it because it leads to delaminating, bubbling and many other problems. I should mention here that these were the problems with the drawer front which led to the repairs. I have read some books on veneering, and they indicate that contact cement is okay. Anybody have any experience to share on this subject.
Any thoughts would be appreciated, Thanks, John
Replies
Contact cement does not create a hard enough glue line bond to work well. I’ve seen articles that recommend contact cement but think they do a great disservice to the reader, it really isn’t suitable for this sort of thing and will likely (but not always) lead to failure. I strongly advise you to use something else.
PMB
http://benchmark.20m.com
I guess now I am leaning towards "BetterBond" cold press glue. I just can't figure a good way to clamp it during the drying time. I don't wan to disassemble the drawer, and with the front of the drawer curved, not sure about how to clamp it good enough.
Thanks for your advice, John
I am not a veneer guy, but a glue many of them seem to prefer is Unibond 800:
http://www.vacupress.com/veneerglue.htm
However, it is generally used with a vacuum press, so unless you have one, you would have to see if there is some other way you can come up with a clamping system for your application.
Try also Constantines Wood Center. They sell veneers and a variety of adhesives, including a contact cement that is supposedly made for veneering.
Their web site is pretty much a listing of products with very little info about each, so it might be best to phone them. Here is the page on veneer glues:
http://www.constantines.com/search.asp?7=veneer+adhesives&6=9
This may be a great time to learn about hammer veneering with hide glue. The curve would pose no problem, but the glue can be messy. You could read the Taunton book on veneering, Tage Frid had an excellent article on it. This would take care of it, I believe.
I have looked at Constantines Wood Center,at the contact cement that is made for veneering. Looks interesting, a possibility?
Anybody have any experience with it?
Thanks for all the help and advice, learning a lot here....
John
Hot hide glue would be best. There is another way that I have not tried. A friend of mine uses yellow glue, applies glue to substrate. Lets glue dry and then applies veneer with a heat gun and formica roller.He saw this method in a woodworking magazine some time ago. I would try this on scrap first, I do not reccomend contact for veneer. I have used it in the past with poor results.
mike
I have a little (good) experience and a lot of notes (that I cannot find at the moment) about using PVA glue (white or yellow carpenter's glue) for veneering.
Either glue is thinned slightly, then a couple coats are painted on both surfaces and allowed to dry. Heat us used to reactivate the glue and press the veneer into place. White glue can be reactivated multiple times, and uses a lower temperature (as I recall, synthetic on an iron), yellow glue is best reactivated just once, and at a higher temperature (as I recall, cotton setting). A friend who does a lot of veneering uses his press for the flat surfaces, but uses this iron-on technique, with an ordinary household iron, for edge banding around curved edges.
My limited experience suggests that the temperature of the iron is less important than the amount of time that you press.
Most woodworkers I know aren't allowed to use the household iron (I have occasionally and have not been caught - it doesn't hurt the iron). But remember that you can buy a cheap iron for almost nothing these days. ________________________Charlie Plesums Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood
Okay, did some more re-reading on hammer veneering. I missed it the first time I read the books. So, no clamping, sounds like what I need to do. Now, the only problem I see is that this drawer front is still attached to the drawer box. I really do not want to risk disassembling it, it doesn't look that sturdy to withstand it. So, if I go with the hide glue, how do you clean up the squeeze out? Does it wipe up fairly easy while it is still warm? Sounds like the yellow glue, reheated also works, sounds like this would less messy. Creekwood, you mention an article to read up on, what is the title, where can I find it? Is it in the Tuanton book? Do you know the title of that book? I am having trouble finding it.
Thanks for all the input, John
John, the book is Fine Woodworking On Marquetry and Veneer. The article is from Fine Woodworking, (spring 1978) 10:52-54. Also, I was wrong on the brand of hide glue I use. It is J.E. Moser ground hide glue. The ground hide glue is what you want, not the pearls. Good luck.
John, like most have said, I would stay away from contact glue. I have used the yellow glue technique mentioned here, and it worked great (so far). It was needed for a certain application, so I tried it. But I still think hide glue is the way to go.
Okay, I hear ya, no contact adhesive. But with the hide glue, doesn't it require pressing and clamping during setup? Will the sand box technique work with the hide glue? Could you give me some brands of hide glue that are tried and true favorites?
Thanks again, John
John, the hot hide glue is applied to both surfaces, the veneer is placed in position, and a hot iron is used to reheat the glue. The veneer hammer is best explained as a squeegee. You press it to the veneer, with alot of pressure, and slide it up the veneer, squeezing out the excess glue. The veneer adheres when the glue cools, and you have gotten of the extra. It is messy, as the hot glue comes out the edges, but the results are worth it. You don't have to clamp it, it takes some practise, but you can learn it. I would suggest you get the article on this, I learned from it. It does take a glue pot which keeps the glue at a constant temperature, runs about 95 bucks. I believe the glue I use is Behlens granules. This really opens up alot of different possibilities in your work. Good luck.
A $9.99 Rival crockpot does makes a cheap substitute for the electric gluepot. Bought it at Target. I put about three inches of water in the pot , then place a plastic tub with hide glue inside. Keeps things cleaner. When done for the day I remove plastic tub, let cool and refrigerate until next use.. You need a candy thermometer to check temperature. Crockpot gets too hot after about two hours. I pull the plug for awhile until temperature goes down to 125 degrees.I removed knob from glass top, put it in a mdf top , drilled a 3/8" hole for thermometer , and cut a 1"x 1" notch for brush.
mike
John,
I used Constantine's contact cement in 1991 to glue rosewood veneer to mahoghany. A very old, very experienced, cabinet maker told me I ught not to do that again.I never had a problem with it.
I also used Charlies PVA flat iron technique which also works quite nicely.
Frank
Thanks, Mike. If my glue pot ever goes on the blink, I'll know what I can do.
To anyone interested,
most thrift shops are an excellent source of old crockpots with and without lids and if you ask nicely and tell them what it is for they might save you one, especially one without a lid. just a thought
dave
John,
Prepare to duck! Or at least I will.
I've used contact cement a number of times for veneer and plastic laminate. I've probably used it on veneer more often than laminate. Anyhow:
I've heard of the kinds of troubles the others have written about, and I certainly bow before others superior knowledge and greater experience. (Stand by, here it comes!) But I've experienced none of the problems listed.
INCOMING!!
N.B., my experience is not all that great; I've used contact cement on veneer only about ten times or so.
One thing I don't like about contact cement is its instant grab. There's no second chance (DAMHIKT). For that reason alone I might not use it for a complex surface, such as something with a redoubled bend. It's way too easy to ruin everything.
Alan
Alan, I've used it also in the past. But from what I understand, the biggest problem is twofold. 1) The glue joint never really hardens, and can creep, and 2) Contact cement has not been around long enough to stand the test of time, wheras hide glue has been around since ancient Egypt. It is also fixable, as in reversable. I too am no expert, but I've read alot on this, and this is definitely the consensus from the experts.
Just a thought
I have used the iron on technique with fair success on very oily and dented curved surfaces. They are absolutely the worst surface to try and it still works fairly well. I have done it a couple of times on good surfaces and it works like a champ.
I use paper backed veneers so I don't know what the bleedthrough of the glue would be like on thinner veneer but if your restoring an old piece the veneer should be thicker.
Okay, I am looking at all my options here. Using yellow glue and the iron on method, do you put it on the substrate, or applied to both sides.
Thanks again, appreciate all the info. I got a lot riding on this project. Wife insists that I ruined the drawer front pulling off the old veneer (that was buckled, chipped, and looked horrible) and there is no way I can make it look right again. I would like to wind up with a perfect match and prove her wrong.
John
John,
You apply it to both sides and wait until it has dried so it is clear, say half a day or a day.
I would practice first on scrap. Practice getting a thin even coating. Learn to not get it on the front of your veneer because it will show. If this is a long piece, make sure that you lay it on straight or it will run off of one edge.
I don't know if you are trying to reaply the original veneer or new. Sometimes heat will reactivate the old hide glue but that is WAY out of my field. If it is new veneer, I would also test it for bleed through.
Another issue is thickness of your replacement veneer and how that will affect the look of the piece, just something more to worry you.
Best of luck winning your argument!
Michael
Edited 7/6/2004 6:41 pm ET by Michael
I've veneered curved shapes by making a fairly accurate caul from shaped and stacked and glued particle board layers. Then, I use two sided tape to apply one or two layers of thin packing foam to the business side of the caul, glue the veneer, and clamp. The packing foam spreads the clamping pressure enough to make up for some (inevitable, at least for me) inaccuracies in the clamping caul.
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