Hello Everyone,
I’m in the process of making a new furniture piece made with Black Cherry and want to plan ahead. I want an in the wood finish, that will avoid the blotchies that is common with cherry.
I’m leaning towards shellac and would like any and all suggestions you may have to offer in terms of surface preparation. I want the best grain exposure and am looking for a finish schedule to promote a natural patina as it ages.
I think I have it down but I want to make sure.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 3/16/2007 10:10 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Replies
"...but I want to make sure." So you must have a stash of scraps you'll be trying your regimen out on, right?
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
forestgirl,
That's a big 10-4!
Perhaps I should have added to my original post that the piece is my Queene Anne interpretation, if I'm allowed that. I posted my design several months ago in the Project Plans discussion group. It will be used to house the entertainment equipment for our TV/Stereo.
Also, the wife just informed me that she wants a gloss finish as well! Guess I'm wondering how that might effect my desire for an in the wood look?????
My apologies to all who have responded thus far.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Shellac is usually used as more of a film finish. It is possible to apply it thin enough to get an in the wood look, but you won't get much protection out of it. My reccomendation would be a good dowsing with BLO, a few days of cure time and then a 50/50 mix of mineral spirits and Pratt & Lambert #38 or McClosky Heirloom varnish wiped on for 3 to 6 coats. That should give you a pretty close to the wood finish that will make cherrys subtle grain look real nice. Or you could mix all three together in roughly equal amounts and do the wipe on/wipe off trick. This will leave you with a real in the wood finish that will also look real nice on cherry, but won't have quite as much protection.
It all depends on the intended use of the piece and how close of a finish you want.
Rob
Hi Rob,
See my post above as I think maybe the parameters have changed slightly. The wife wants a gloss finish and I would like an in the wood finish??????????
Now I'm perplexed,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
on top of your current division between the wife and yourself, there will be some blotching with cherry. it will disappear with exposure to sunlight over a few months time.
Hmmmmm, that's good to know. Then it's just a temporary dilema. That intrigues me even more, sounds like a reaction of the wood.
Thanks,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
you stated in a previous post that you didnt' like the darkening of the cherry wood by oil. you may not want to expose your piece to sunlight as that will darken it over time. the blotching goes away as the color of the cherry moves towards a uniform reddish brown color. i love this feature of cherry wood, but if you don't then i'd try something other than oil. i've done box insides with shellac only and that looks nice without much blotching. it also imparts considerably less color to cherry in the beginning.
Bob,
Well you certainly do have a dilemma. Those two are pretty much opposite looks. However you could certainly use shellac to achieve your wife's preferred gloss look. So maybe you aren't as far apart as you thought. BLO, and garnet shellac will give cherry a headstart on the aging process and shellac always looks good on cherry or most any wood for that matter.
Rob
On the cherry projects I've done I gave them a wipe of tung oil then a rub with a green 3M pad. That really brought out the beauty of the cherry, and there was no blotching. That was followed by a good shellacking. They deserved one! Actually for the shellac part you should ask Frenchy,the master of that art.
Hi Everyone,
I guess I'm not understanding what causes the blotchies in Cherry. Could someone please explain this to me?
The cherry I am using has been kiln dried and has been stickered for nearly a year so it should be dry. I haven't checked it with a moisture meter as I don't have one and am not sure what it would tell me as the MC relates to the blotchies.
Thanks in advance,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
This answer is strictly based on book learning, but as I understand it the blotchiness of cherry is caused by variation in how easily the oil finish soaks in. A wash coat of shellac before the oil is suggested for this. The idea is that a 1 lb cut or so of shellac will soak in, leaving very little on the surface. More will soak in where the wood is more porous, so you wind up clogging up those pores more, evening up the porosity. After it's completely dry, you polish off the shellac on the outside with steel wool, and then apply the oil. Blotchiness should be greatly diminished.I'm pretty sure Frid and Fexner mention this somewhere in their books, and it's been independently discovered by others: http://woodworkstuff.net/KfinRude.html
Allan
From what I've absorbed so far, I have in mind a finish schedule. Please let me know if you think I've hosed it?
1. Properly prepare all surfaces thru 320 grit.
2. Apply 1# dewaxed shellac as a seal/wash coat to minimie the blotchies.
3. Apply Tung Oil to enhance/pop the grain. Would Watco or BLO be a better choice here? I don't want to radically change the natural color of the wood and have had success with Tung Oil in the past.
4. Then apply shellac, in several thin coats for a gloss finish.
I'm hoping that this will provide a good compromise between an in the wood finish and also a gloss finish.
I will try some test pieces,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Watco is an oil/varnish mix. BLO and tung oil produce nearly identical results but BLO takes much less time to cure than pure tung oil. 24 to 48 hours vs. weeks. The only difference is BLO doesn't have the Asian mystique of tung oil. If you do decide to go with tung oil make sure it says 100% pure or something similar somewhere on the packaging. Most tung oil finishes are oil/varnish or wiping varnish and don't have a trace of tung oil in them.
Rob
Hi Rob,
If I go with BLO, how should I apply it?
I used it on a cherry box I made in the past by flooding the surface and wiping off the excess after letting it soak for a while. This resulted in a VERY DARK finish that I don't want. It actually discolored the cherry to the point that I did not like and didn't enhance the color of the wood. I may have completely messed it up but by flooding it as I didn't know what I was doing.
Was I wrong in flooding it? If you think that using Tung Oil per my suggested schedule would be a better solution then I'm all for it as I don't have a problem with waiting for it to cure. We want to see the wood. We understand the aging process that will happen with cherry and want to embrace it.
Kinda let it happen so to speak. I guess that's what we're looking for more than anything.
Thanks for your help and look forward to additional suggestions. Finishing is a whole new world for me and want to get it right, or at least close. My usual approach to finishing in the past was to paint it! Now I'm intrigued by enhancing the qualities of the wood.
Who knows, maybe someday I'll learn how to bookmatch pieces! I can't begin to tell you how much I've learned from posting in here. I've got what some would consider the bare minimum of a shop and I'm having a great time! I'm having so much fun it's almost sinful.
Suggestions for a brand of PURE Tung Oil?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 3/19/2007 10:45 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
I suspect tung oil would have had only the smallest difference in making the finish lighter. A lot of the color darkening is just from "wetting" out the surface. (Compare the linseed oil darkened cherry with cherry darkened temporarily by wetting with naptha.) Cherry varies widely in its color depending on where it grew so you may have a relatively dark variety.
To maintain the lightest color avoid oil entirely. A super blonde shellac directly on the bare wood will darken less than the oil. Waterborne finishes will darken less than that (much to little for my tastes.) Neither shellac or acrylic will darken over time, while both linseed oil and tung will darken.
I don't think the flooding on of the linseed oil had much difference either once there was enough oil to wet out the surface and assuming all the excess was wiped off.
Edited 3/20/2007 6:15 am ET by SteveSchoene
Edited 3/20/2007 6:18 am ET by SteveSchoene
The reason I said my answer was from "book learning" was to help you distinguish my answer to your question from solid advice based on long experience. Listen to the other guys. If you want a very specific description of a finishing protocol, take a look at the link I gave above.
Let me make the following points:>> 1. Properly prepare all surfaces thru 320 grit.Sanding beyond 180-220 grit is non-productive. Beyond that you are primarily burnishing the wood which can actually contribute to uneven coloring.>> 2. Apply 1# dewaxed shellac as a seal/wash coat to minimie the blotchies.OK, but you should lightly sand the dried shellac with 320 paper to reopen some of the pores for the following step to work.>> 3. Apply Tung Oil to enhance/pop the grain. Would Watco or BLO be a better choice here? I don't want to radically change the natural color of the wood and have had success with Tung Oil in the past.Watco is a mixture of linseed oil and varnish. No need for it. If you have had success with tung oil, then OK. But be aware that pure, 100% tung oil takes a long time to dry and you will get little absorbsion because of sealing the wood surface with the shellac in the prior step. I would go with BLO as it will cure much faster.>> 4. Then apply shellac, in several thin coats for a gloss finish.If you can't spray, then the best way to apply shellac is to brush on the first application and then pad subsequent applications. With brushing,it is difficult to get a smooth application.Finally, I will restate strongly that you should test out your finishing plans on scrap from your project. No tears.Howie.........
Howard,
Very, very much appreciated. I will try your recipe, starting this evening.
As I have gone too far with sanding, should I rough it up with 220?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
While I absolutely agree with Howie about the risks of sanding beyond 220, it doesn't have to be a risky proposition. If the final prep is done with *fresh* sandpaper that is changed often then there should be no burnishing. The problem with burning of course is that it will cause the stain to be accepted unevenly. As long as the pores are still open then 320 is acceptable.
The bigger issue when working with wipe stain is color. You can tweak the depth of color somewhat simply by sanding to a different grit. Finer grits are going to yield a lighter stained surface whereas courser grits will yield a darker stained surface. To a lesser degree the actual color itself can be tweaked slightly *if* the pigments are not all of the same grind. So I would suggest making depth and quality of color your primary criteria and then go from there. This means doing some samples at the different final grits and decide which you like the best.
Have you made progress with your trials? I am not having a great deal of luck picking the finish for a cherry project, so I would appreciate a pic of yours for another idea.
Hi Brad,
Since my last post in here, my priorities took a rather large hit. Investigating a Stanley Type3, couple of issues with past clients and a shift to the wifes purchase of a new TV.
A current project, refinishing a gun stock, has me thinking that I might be able to accomplish both our original goals, those being an in the wood finish (my goal) and a gloss finish (the wifes goal). I'm going to give Tru Oil a go.
I did manage to get a dewaxed shellac wash coat and several coats of amber shellac that look real good. So far I haven't seen any evidence of the blotchies. I will post some pics when I get a chance.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I hear you about getting side tracked. My real job is getting in the way, go figure.
Thks
I don't think that you need to sand all the way to 320 grit. at least not on the bare wood. As long as you don't skip grits, you should be satisfied with 220 grit. If you are doing power sanding, you can go to 220 grit and then go back and hand sand at 180 grit. I would do plenty of sample boards so that you know what steps to take when you start the process. The Jeff Jewitt article in FWW is good and there is a lot of excellent information in Bob Flexner's book as well. Flexner's book is one of the books used as a text in the Wood Finishing Program at the Dakota County Technical College in Rosemount, Minnesota.
Good luck!
Alan gave a pretty good description of what causes it - differing densities in the wood. Although it can happen with any coloring agent, not just oils. And besides shellac, which is popular, there are a number of different ways of achieving the same basic function. Anywhere from thinned glue (called "glue sizing") to just about any kind of finish that's thinned way, way down and applied in a relatively light coat (called a "wash coat"), to various benign viscous materials, to simply flooding the surface first with a compatible solvent and then applying the stain before that solvent has a chance to dry out.
Essentially the idea is to force the stain to stay on the surface and all of the above mentioned approaches do that. Incidently, the same basic approachs can be used to keep endgrain from turning really dark because of how much more color it absorbs.
Also, Bob Flexner says that these same approaches are sometimes used before applying wood pore fillers to make the entire process easier and more effective.
Do you have spray equipment? If so then I would say that Sherwin Williams' KEMVAR "C" varnish sounds to me like it'd be the perfect match to what you want.
As a finish it's really a one-trick pony. All it's good for is an "in the wood" finish. And having used it on several jobs for an extremely demanding customer I can tell you that it is nearly impossible to detect that there is even a finish on the piece once it's done and cured, but also that it's far, far tougher and durable than you'd expect for something that soaked into the wood rather than forming a film on top of the wood.
Kevin,
If you call a Wagner spray gun spraying equipment, which I doubt. I do have another spray gun which runs off a compressor, but I have never used it and as such I have no experience spraying.
Actually I take that back, I did spray poly on an oak dining room set that actually came out quite good. At least the wife and I thought so. That was about 20 years ago and as fas as I know the set is still in use today.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
FWW #130 has an article by Jeff Jewitt (sp?) on finishing cherry and avoiding the problem you describe. As Jeff runs Homestead Finishing - a great resource on finishing as well as a good supplier of dyes, shellacs and other products, I suggest you check it out and see if it answers your questions.
I did go to the Homestead Finishing site as I have been there numerous times before. That's one of the reasons I decided on the finish schedule, i.e. the dewaxed wash coat to minimize the splotching, along with others responses. At least I hope I understood all the help that has been posted.
Both my wife and I like the look of natural wood. I have to consider this my very first solid wood piece of furniture. It's also the first piece that in any way embodies some classic furniture elements that I've ever made. I've still got more to do, but it's getting there as most of the major components are done.
You know, you work for so long on a project, mill/process all the pieces until you like the unfinished product. Fix some mistakes along the way. Then, while admiring all your hard work, you now realize that the finish is kind of like the final exam!
Yes, I will and am taking many quizzes along the way, that being trying different finish techniques on scrap pieces from the project.
You folks are most helpful,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
tjh,
I will read the article tonight. Sorry for the long delay in my response. Have had too many pokers in the fire lately.
Thanks,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
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