Hi,
What exactly is a back bevel? I’ve heard of secondary bevels aka micro bevels. But What exactly is the benefit of a back bevel.
If I want to change the primary bevel on a plane blade or chisel is it best to put a micro bevel on the blade first and then sharpen that micro bevel at the higher angle?
Is sharpening a bevel up and bevel down plane done exactly the same way?
I have a LV bevel up low angle jack plane that needs to be cambered slightly.. now that’s going to be a challenge! I’m trying to gather as much information about sharpening chisels and plane blades as I can.
wanda
Replies
Wanda,
Back bevels are used with bevel down planes. Their purpose is to increase the effective cutting angle (higher for grain changing woods).
Suppose than an iron is bedded at 45*. Put a 10* backbevel on 'top' and you have a cutting angle of 55*.
Best wishes,
Metod
On plane irons some of us sharpen the main bevel to 1000 or 4000 grit and then do the micro bevel at 8000. When you resharpen then you only resharpen the micro bevel 'till it gets too wide to save time and then you redo the bevel and micro bevel all over again.
Some of us use a back bevel, a micro bevel on the back of the plane iron, to save time preping the back using something called "the ruler trick". This is a method the folks at Lie Neilson planes use. There was a FWW article on it last year. There have been lots of posts here on knots too, pro and con. Don't use a back bevel on a chisel, only a plane iron.
here is one of the threads I mentioned above:
Plane blade - Flattening the backside
JBourgeois on Sat, 01/01/2011 - 04:39
in
Hand Tools
back bevels
Thanks guys for the info.
I have yet to try and sharpen a plane blade. Think I'll try out my Norton Waterstones and sharpen a a few bench chisels using the MK II honing guide. Since I don't own a grinder I won't be able to camber the iron on my low angle jack plane. Right now I have a 25 degree primary bevel on that plane blade. It's perfect for shooting but not so good for removing large amts of material. I think I would have preferred a bevel down jack plane. I like the way those bevel down LN planes adjust on the fly.
wanda
Cambering
Wanda,
Doesn't MK II come with (at least optional) convex roller, that could help with cambering. If you are comfortable, you can use a belt sander (60 or 80 grit) to quickly rough camber an iron. Great for removal of nicks and flattening the backs (of the irons, of course <g>).
Also: With a honing guide, you do not 'need' a hollow grind - so lack of a grinder might not be an issue.
Best wishes,
Metod
Hi Metod,
I own a Mark II honing guide but I don't have that accessory. I'll have to put that on my LV wishlist. :)
cambering a bevel down blade doesn't remove as much material so you probably could get away with just cambering a slight camber on a jointer or smoother.
Pretty sure Derek Cohen mentioned in one of his articles to camber the primary bevel using a grinder.. On a bevel up plane iron that would require you to remove more metal than on a bevel down plane.
Not sure if that could be done successfully using theMark II camber assessory and a 220 grit Norton stone...
time for me to seriously think about buying a grinder or a belt sander.
wanda
Ah, the camber...
Wanda,
Although LV does make a nice honing guide with a bunch of bells and whistles, you can find the old school eclipse style honing guides at most hardware stores and certainly at any Woodcraft/Rockler store near you. Its cheap ($9.99), holds the blade more securely than my LV guide (I used the MK.1 with the rubber pad and single plunger), and the roller is the perfect width IMO for cambering an iron.
BTW it is possible to camber a bevel up iron without power tools, it simply takes a bit longer. I cambered my LN LA-Jack plane starting with a 10" black DMT Dia-sharp in about 30-40 min... as long as I don't run it into a nail or do something stupid I shouldn't have to repeat that process for a good long time. Don't get me wrong, power tools speed up the process but they also lower the tolerance for error, i.e. drawing the temper out and removing too much material.
Personally, I prefer bevel down planes and I prepare several irons for my main workhorses several different ways - For my jack plane I use two irons prepped with a 5" radius on one and a lesser 9" radius on another ( the 5" is for heavy stock removal like a scrub plane and the 9" for general work), for my smoother and jointer I apply a slight almost imperceptable raduis on the iron (just enough to relieve the track marks) using only hand pressure on my water stones, starting with 800-1000 grit.
I have found it invaluable to have multiple irons for each plane prepped and ready to go before I start a project so I don't have to break my rythym and lose my train of thought mid-process. I actually have come to enjoy sharpening as a separate part of woodworking; I get a kick out of changing my setup to better suit various situations I encounter with my work, much like a racer tuning his car to perfection.
-Ian
Well Done !
Just when I thought all the hand tool people have gone.
Ian posted :
>multiple irons invaluable . . . ready to go before I start a project so I don't have to break my rhythm and lose my train of thought mid-process.
enjoy sharpening as a separate part of woodworking;
I get a kick out of changing my setup to better suit various situations I encounter with my work, much like a racer tuning his car to perfection.
Possible to camber without power tools ( Wanda: if not . . . one wonders how the Townsends and all ever got anything accomplished ).<
For the most part a back bevel on a bevel down plane is just an invitation to frustration. Best to get one of Larry's steeper pitched planes, a steeper frog for your existing plane or work wood that suits your tools.
Recently I wanted to use my little LN #1 on some relatively soft hard wood, camphor wood.
The plane had to be super sharp because I had steamed out a minor scratch on a finished project and I just wanted to clean up and blend the area with out removing any unnecessary wood.
I found I had a way steep set up with a back bevel on that plane blade; set up for cantankerous purple heart and bubinga.
I had to waste metal grinding it off for a better/sharper blade edge for the softer wood.
Just a waste of metal and time. Made me wish I had one of Larry's smallest planes at a steep bed angle (for my purp. and bub. wood ) so I could just keep the LN #1 at its intended angle.
I am not sure what the feminine version of Nah Dude Nah is but . . .
back bevels ? Nah _______ nah.
PS: I must admit I have only one blade for my little #1 I was pricing another one the other day but they sure are proud of those little blades. Price wise. I use the #1 very lightly, isn't like I am doing a whole board with the little guy.
Note multiple blades for my workhorse planes are the way I role but if at various angles then not the quick change that one had in mind. Pay a lot for many planes or many (many ) blades. Who said woodworking was simple or easy ?
I am rambling so I will stop now.
I lied . . .
PPS: You have planes, sharpening stones . . . etc . . . but have never tried sharpening . . .
. . . hmmmm . . .
. . . . . . huh . . . .
. . . unimaginable. I would have tried out the stones as soon as I got my grubby mits on 'em.
Who is Wanda REALLY ? Is this Lataxe pulling our leg ? Come onnnnnn
Who is this really ?
Hello Roc,
Yeah I will have to agree with you..It's best to have several blades set up at various angles for each plane in your arsenal. Naturally the Sharpening angle depends on the type of wood you're planing.
I have my #4 LN smoothing plane set up to take .002 shavings. It's the last plane to see the surface of the wood. One of these days I might purchase a higher angle frog for it. For cantankerous species I will give the bevel up smoothing planes a try. (62 degree effective cutting angle) otherwise I'll stick to using my #4 LN for smoothing. What a beautifully balanced tool. The handle fits the palm of my hand like a glove.
Like you I prefer the feel of the bevel down planes..I have somewhere to point my index finger! The ability to adjust the iron on the fly is also a plus. When planing the edge of boards I think it gives you better feedback.. You can actually tell when the plane is tilting to the right or to the left. I suppose the only disadvantage is the chipbreaker..It takes a bit of fiddling to get it just right. It's so much easier adjusting the mouth on a BU plane. You don't have to grab your screwdriver and loosen the 2 screws at the back of the frog in order to adjust the mouth opening.
wanda
.
Nah-nah
Roc,
"back bevels ? Nah _______ nah"
I am just curious why.
I built me a metal smoother with 55* bed. It work nicely. Few years ago I tried a 10* backbevel on my LN #4, and it worked nicely. That's from a standpoint of a hobbyist. Any more 'depth' to it? What gives?
Best wishes,
Metod
Guess I have a phobia about waste.
> it worked nicely. . . what gives ?<
Oh I agree ! Back bevels work totally great. Got me out of serious hot water after I bought a bunch of standard 45 ° bed angle bevel down planes and they would not work on my purple heart project.
The problems are two :
1. When needing to go to a blade angle that isn't going to crush more delicate wood fibers , like my camphor wood, I need to grind off the back bevel to get back to a shallower cutting angle. That is where the "waste " comes in ( or goes out ).
2. Once one has a back bevel one has to remember basically what it is and then always add that step to set up to duplicate it as opposed to just flat polishing the back on the stone. I write the angle on the blade with magic marker.
I went to touch up the back bevel to help remove the wire edge and wound up not resetting my Veritas gauge to the "green" range from the "red" range and ended up with even a steeper back bevel than intended. I was in some pain at the time and distracted. Unrelated to woodworking. OK now by the way. But it was enough to throw off my concentration on an overly complicated sharpening process. Then I had to grind back to correct the error.
Don't any one go off on hand sharpening and stropping I won't take the bait.
So YES back bevels work but for a novice, like Wanda, or some one who has had a very long day and just wants a simple quick sharpening back bevels are in the way.
PS: in case anyone cares I am getting the degree symble ( on a Mac ) " ° " by pressing shift option 8.
A matter of degrees.
Go figure.... I have picked up better tips on how to use my Mac from this site than any other, including that little gem about how to get degrees. Brilliant.
On a side note, it does seem like the hand tool folks took most of the summer off but I would expect (and hope) that with the return of winter to the northern hemisphere, we should see the usual suspects back in the shop and posting questions.
Long live the free exchange of ideas...
-Ian
Maintenance
Roc,
When it comes to the 'maintenance', I completely agree with you, that backbevels take a back seat (did I write back twice?<g>) to a higher angle bed. Thanks for pointing it out.
Best wishes,
Metod
Masking Tape
Wanda,
"in order to adjust the mouth opening"
To close up a mouth a bit, apply some masking tape on the bottom side of the iron. If you do not like the result, you have only lost a few minutes of time (and a bit of a tape).
There are top notch performing infills with fixed and not very tight mouths out there (in case you want a tight mouth). Personally, I believe (and practice) much more in sharp irons than micro-mouth adjustments.
Best wishes,
Metod
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