Bailey vs Bedrock – What’s the diff?
thx1138
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
Lately I have been looking to upgrade my planing skills. I have an older (but not too old) Stanley no. 4 and am looking to get a no. 5 or 6. I have been looking to eBay to see what I should expect to pay and I see a huge diffence between Bailey and Bedrock style planes. Can anyone explain to me what the major diffences are between the two styles? I understand that newer ‘higher-end’ planes by Lie-Neilsen and Clifton are both Bedrock style, but I really have no idea what that means.
Replies
I recently got involved in hand planes buying mostly from ebay and hate to admit it but got carried away on wanting more and more and down the slippery slope I went.
Bedrock design are early Stanley and are higher prices simply for the demand by collectors. In my opinion a person cannot tell the difference between an early stanley and a bedrock in use. I am sure there is someone more knowlegeable about the difference than me but that is my .02 worth.
dave
The Bedrock is a superior tool to the standard Bailey (if they are in good condition).
The bedrock has essentially the same castings, but frog has more metal and machining done to create more surface contact with the frog and blade. THis reduces chatter and provides a little more mass. The throat adjustment is also easier, but not really a big deal.
Bedrocks were only produced from 1898 to about 1943 or so. They were more expensive than the Bailey line, and never as popular.
Definitely read Patrick Leach's Blood and Gore pages here: http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html The older I get, the better I was....
I agree with Patrick here: http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan15.htm
In a word, overhyped.
Regular Bailey's perform very well in everything I've ever asked of them. BedRock is not a bad design; in fact, it's good. I can see why Lie-Nielsen uses the design. In my opinion, however, the Baley design is absolutely fine too.
So I guess that makes my $15, garage sale, 608c just another plane. Sorry, I had to brag.
"Guys with new tools need to prove they can use them."
To whom?
Get over yourself...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
The Bedrock design supports the frog more securely and with more surface area than a Bailey design. The benefit is less blade chatter. I think the difference between the two types is significant. Another feature is that you can adjust the mouth opening on a Bedrock without removing the blade, but in my opinion, this is not the reason to buy one. You can get more information on Patrick Leach's Supertool site.
I have never, repeat never, had a cap-ironed plane chatter. I ditched electricity years ago when my artistic side finally won the battle over my macho, factory worker side.
Old Stanley Bailey is great stuff. Well machined and solid. The Bedrock design does save you about 20 seconds vs. a Bailey when making a frog adjustment to close or open up the mouth clearance.
Patrick Leach is right about the hype.
"I have never, repeat never, had a cap-ironed plane chatter".
You have to listen very very carefully for this phenomenon. On some days it can barely be heard above ever increasing cacophony of myth sayers pre-occupied with this subject.Philip Marcou
Pro, old Leach there might be taking the mickey out of Bedrock, but I see that this supposedly more difficult engineering design has been copied by The SUPERIOR Works for their #1.
As an aside, I have long wandered what use is a #1, apart from looking nice in a display cabinet.Philip Marcou
I will agree with the hype and the "mystique", but all thing being equal, the question is this:
Take away the hype, take away the cost, take away the fact that a lot of Bedrocks are older, and often not in the finest shape, and require tuneup (so do Baileys)-->
If I offered you a choice of a #5 Bedrock or a #5 Bailey- in equal condition, at the same price, which would you choose?
Exactly. The rest is a personal choice based upon circumstances.
The older I get, the better I was....
> As an aside, I have long wandered what use is a #1, apart from looking nice in a display cabinet.<
Does it share some design characteristics with those fishing lures which are designed to catch fishermen (by their wallets), instead of a significant quantity of fish?
(Ducking and running)
Of course you are right Philip. The only planes that chatter on anything like a regular basis are old wooden planes with only a wedge securing the iron. I have one and it can really scream at times.
I'm not tearing down wood planes, but the tensioned cap iron really WAS an improvement in the history of plane making. Anybody disputing that would not have my ear very long.
A lot of blokes insist on using planes, particularly a smoother, when the stock is telling them it's time for the scraper. I don't have time for that foolishness. When a well tuned smoother won't hack it I put it up and grab a scraper.
No plane in the world can take a shaving as fine as a well setup scraper. Especially on figured stock. But scraping is work and a scraper is, well, just a piece of steel.
How sexy is that? Not very. I can't go on to a woodworking website and 'gloat' (most ridiculous thing in the world to me) over a simple section of steel now can I? Hey man, you ought to see my new $7 Sandvik scraper!! Not quite the same. Not quite the same.
As an aside, I have long wandered what use is a #1, apart from looking nice in a display cabinet.
Probably worthless as a tool, but you still want one don't you :)
Anyone care to ellaborate as to why the Bedrock design is harder to mill? Seems to me it'd be exactly the same as a Bailey.
Steve
Phillip -
I have a Stanley #1 setting in my plane cabinet. It's tuned up, ready to go with a scary sharp blade in it. However, It rarely gets pulled out except to show to customers that come by for a cup of coffee. It even has a thin curl of walnut setting in it.
They would be a great little plane for model or violin makers. But, with the current going price for #1's most model makers opt for cheaper alternatives. Have you ever seen a set of violin makers planes? Some are only 1" long but still look like a micro miniture version of their bigger cousins.
You ever seen a #1 Ohio plane? About like the Stanley #1 but only 5 or 6 are rumored to exist. They go for $15K plus.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
You ever seen a #1 Ohio plane? About like the Stanley #1 but only 5 or 6 are rumored to exist. They go for $15K plus.
Even rarer, how about that Chaplin #1 sized plane?
Steve
Edited 9/30/2005 11:28 pm ET by dirtstirrer
The major difference between a Bedrock and a Stanley is the means of attaching the frog to the body . The Bedrock method is more secure and less inclined to distort the body, as it does not rely on screws tapped into the plane body; it relys on the wedging action of the two screws with tapered fronts to pull down the frog onto its bed. This is why Clifton and L/Nielson have copied it.Philip Marcou
Edited 9/29/2005 10:15 pm ET by philip
Well, might as well throw myself on the pile. In my not-so-humble opinion, the ability to adjust the mouth opening without removing the blade is an enormous advantage. I find Baily-style planes a monumental pain to adjust; but then I'm really fussy about the adjustment of my planes. So that,combined with the added stability that others have mentioned, makes for a noteworthy difference in the two designs--at least for me.
Charlie
a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,
program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.
- Robert A. Heinlein
I propose a new rule for discussions about tool "quality". In order to post an opinion, you have to post a picture of the project completed using said tool.
This is of course in jest but I the point is clear. Look through the old b&W FWW back before $250 planes and it seems they had no trouble producing fine work.
I was reading a thread here about someone wanting to learn to use their new lathe and everyone was recomending expensive chisels. I can just imagine some newbie attacking his grinding stone with an expensive sorby wearing the damn thing out when he could do just as good work with a well sharpened Harbor freight chisel, which has better steel than almost any pre 1900 chisel. Of course it won't hold an edge as long but when he learned how to sharpen and got his technique down he would appreciate the improvement of a better chisel.
I love nice tools, I even have a few but I know far to many people who make stuff far better than I with tools I wouldn't pick up for anything other than scrap. That is why I call most of the current magazines "tool porno" because they cover tools and jigs most people will never have or build, it is all fantasy. Like HS kids sitting around talking about which car has more HP but being stuck driving in rush hour traffic never taking it out of 2nd gear.
I am in the gun business and you hear the same BS. Guys bragging about who's gun is more accurate and yet neither have ever taken it out shooting and couldn't hit anything with it anyway.
There is no doubt modern steel holds an edge longer but in use, how many pieces of furniture can you make with a an old plane verses a new one? How much time do you really save because you "sharpen less"?
I have a fairly complete set of "using" planes (stanley's and Miller Falls) that I picked up for less than the price of one beautiful super fancy plane. Mine don't look as pretty but they more than get the job done.
Hey Michael -
I make my own lathe chisels out of A2 and more recently out of high cobalt steel blanks. I only use scrapers so they are fairly easy to make. The high cobalt steel will last 5+ times longer before sharpening than A2 for highly abrasive woods like Cocobolo. With A2 my chisels were running $2 or $3 apiece to make. With the cobalt steel maybe like $6 or $7 each. I still use A2 for my hand held chisels but use the cobalt ones for my duplicator. This requires less frequent sharpenings and the subsequent re-registering that is necessary.
I agree that most expensive tool you see on the market today carry a LOT of salesman HYPE in the price.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Glad to hear about people making tools! Doing gunstocks, I haven't had to do a lot of mortises but am starting to do more furniture and wanted some mortising chisels and was thinking of just making them using Starret air hardening die stock. Where do you get the A2 and high cobalt stuff? McMaster Carr?
In my last gunstock making class at Woodcraft, I showed them how to make scrapers from screwdrivers by heating the shaft and bending them and took the temper out and then rehardened them. Not industrial quality heat treat but fine for what we were doing.
You should post some pictures of your lathe chisels!
I'm now getting them from MSC Industrial Supply. I used to get the A2 from http://www.onlinemetals.com .
Here's a pic of some of my home made chisels. My objective in making them was to achieve functionality and to save money. The handles are IPE and the brass ferrels are compression nuts. I only do small stuff, so I wanted them short with short handles. I also don't turn a wide variety of stuff - mainly just plane knobs. When ever I get into a new kind of cut, I make another with whatever grind is needed.
The only commercial made chisels i have are the 5 that came with the lathe. Don't think I've used them since the first day or so I had the lathe. Really pieces of junk.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Well said!! The tools don't make the craftsman, the craftsman make the tools.
Charlie,
I can't understand why people see the need to adjust the plane mouth so often. Obviously for quality woodworking one has a smallish gap-just enought to admit a thinnish shaving without balling up.
I think it is far more important to ensure that the area immediately in front of the opening is in contact with the wood i.e not raised above it.In fact all of the area around the gap should be flat on the wood. That's what I look for first when I , er , rub the occasional plane posterior on some abrasive.Philip Marcou
"I can't understand why people see the need to adjust the plane mouth so often"For my way of working, I sharpen quite often. Only takes a couple of minutes, and drastically improves the quality of the surface. Then, I adjust the plane to a high degree of accuracy, testing the cut on a small (1/2") piece of wood clamped into my side vise to ensure that it is perfectly adjusted laterally and that the mouth is set exactly as before, judged by the thickness of shavings taken on the left and right side of the plane; a very tiny variation makes a big difference, and I find such variations fairly often once the iron is removed and replaced, especially if the cap iron is disassembled from the iron, as with sharpening.I was taught to plane this way by Deneb Puchalski, a Lie-Nielsen rep and educator. He is a wonderful source of knowledge on this and other issues relating to hand planes. Ease of adjustment is a large part of the entire process, which isn't to say that it can't be done with any other plane, and with practice--like any other task--it becomes easier, I'm sure. I suppose that I've always been impatient, but after I sharpen, I want to get back to work quickly, so quick simple adjustment matters a great deal to me.Now, this gives me an opportunity to plug the low-angle set up. I like the adjustable mouth, like a block plane. Makes mouth adjustment even easier; yet another thing I learned from Deneb: there is no more versatile--and no more easily adjustable--plane design than the low angle design with the adjustable mouth.CharlieA human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher
a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,
program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.
- Robert A. Heinlein
One difference is in the mechanism for securing the frog to the plane.
If you cabn get a copy of Garret Hack's book on planes it will show you.
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