Replies

1. 
   TKanzler | Feb 20, 2003 04:55pm | #1

   "He tells me not to worry that this a common thing on 5hp 1phase Baldor motors."

   It's a common thing on 3/4 hp single-phase Baldor motors, also (mine, at least).  Pop off the belts, and I'll bet it still does it.  I've never cracked open the case on this particular motor, but it doesn't bother me enough to worry about it.  The bearings are tight, and it runs quietly, so I'm not going to sweat it.  I suspect the centrifugal mechanism is chattering where it pushes against the switch when the speed drops, and perhaps a bit of dry lube would be in order, but I just don't care enough to worry about it.

   I'm not saying it should do that, and I'd suggest you call Baldor directly.   Here's a Baldor motor service center locator: http://www.baldor.com/support/svc_centers_mtr.asp  If this is a common phenomenon with those motors, they should be able to tell you that over the phone.  If they tell you it isn't, I wouldn't let the dealer you bought it from sleep until it's replaced.

   Be seeing you...

2. 
   Timberwerks | Feb 20, 2003 05:09pm | #2

   I have a Performax with a 5hp Lesson and there is never any noise or vibration. A friend has a 5hp Baldor in his saw and this is quiet also. Maybe call a electric motor repair service in your area to see what they say.

   Dale

3. 
   davearnone | Feb 20, 2003 06:34pm | #3

   Is the vibe coming from the motor or the machine? 

1. 
   camel | Feb 20, 2003 08:17pm | #5

   Thanks for all the responses. To clear something up, this is a brand new machine, not even a week old. Also the guy on the phone said if I'd gone with 3phase I wouldn't experience this shudder as it winds down.

   Just for info., this is an Extrema 37" machine. Also this shudder doesn't last more than I'd say 1-2 seconds. It's hard to explain typing. But trust me, if you heard it you'd scratch your head and say"what the #$@%" like I am. I just can't see paying $4000.00 for a sander and having to deal with this #### sound when I shut it down. It's very irrating, and to make things worse, they're in Louisiana and I'm in Michigan.

   I'm about ready to scrap all these junk power tools and go caveman style. This is ridiculus.

   This company hasn't been nothing but a nightmare to deal with since the beginning. Other than this wierd vibration, the sander is excellant.

   Gotta eat and get back to work sometime soon. Thanks again.John E. Nanasy

1. 
   UncleDunc | Feb 21, 2003 01:29am | #6

   I'll endorse TAILSORPINS' answer. Motors of that type have to have a capacitor in the circuit to get them going when they start up. There's a centrifugal switch that cuts the capacitor out of the circuit when the motor is going fast enough, and when you turn it off, the switch closes again when it slows to that same speed. My bench grinder does the same thing. Apparently some makers can make motors that do it with less drama, but it's not a problem.

2. 
   bill_1010 | Feb 21, 2003 01:31am | #7

   YOu might consider trying those link belts.   COnventional v belts do have a memory.  This might be the cuase of some of the vibration. 

   Just a thought that wasnt mentioned.  But it could very well be what was mentioned above or combination of both to some varied degree.

1. 
   camel | Feb 21, 2003 05:32am | #10

   Hey Bill- After I tightened up the belt tension and that didn't work, the link belts were the first thing I thought of. The guy from Extrema told me the link belts wouldn't do any good. I think they'd help a little, but that's not the root of the problem. Thanks.John E. Nanasy

1. 
   mitch | Feb 21, 2003 09:59pm | #11

   i can't even guess why it does it, but i have 2hp baldor on my older inca tablesaw that has a milder version those exact same symptoms.  it runs like a top under power so i don't worry about it.  in a way, it acts as kind of a crude blade brake.

   m

2. 
   TKanzler | Feb 22, 2003 12:47am | #13

   By my count, that's two 5 hp motors, one 2 hp motor, and my 3/4 hp motor, all by Baldor, and all doing the same thing.  As I said in my post before (2nd from top), it doesn't effect it's operation, so I'm not going to bother with it.  I'm sure it's just chatter from the centrifugal mechanism pushing against the switch when it slows (similar to how a dry journal bearing can chatter, and generate huge drag in the process), and when it stops working, I'll either fix it or junk it.  I've got a pile of 'em, anyway.Be seeing you...

3. 
   Splintie | Feb 22, 2003 04:37am | #14

   Except i have a 5 hp, single phase Baldor on my drum sander (20 years old?) and it is smooooooooth. I guess i won't be in a hurry to "upgrade" anything.

   Edited 2/21/2003 8:38:51 PM ET by SPLINTIE

4. 
   TKanzler | Feb 22, 2003 04:53am | #15

   Don't get me wrong, I'm not making any judgements or generalizations other than the noise being a somewhat common phenomenon with some Baldor single-phase motors, and I've got nothing against Baldor.  I'm guessing it stems from commonality of parts in those small motors, across several frame sizes, and is probably nothing to worry about.  That old motor of mine has been doing it since I salvaged it from something in a scrap yard I used to work in, and it'll keep doing it until I either fix it or scrap it.  As far as upgrades, none of these motors are anything great.  They're just motors.  Be seeing you...

5. 
   camel | Feb 22, 2003 06:28pm | #16

   Tom- You're absolutely right. This is a common thing on the damned 5hp 1 phase Baldor motors. I talked to a number of Baldor service centers in my area, and they all basically said the same thing.

   So, I came to an conclusion. I can't live with the noise. It really annoys me. The guy from Extrema susprisingly has been very concerned with me being happy with my sander. I'm going to go with the 3 phase monday. All costs covered by Extrema. He said the 3 phase motors they use are ABB. Can you give an opinion on this brand? He claims they're German made and reliable. Thanks.John E. Nanasy

6. 
   TKanzler | Feb 22, 2003 08:29pm | #17

   3-phase motors have only one moving part (the rotor), to start with, and so are generally much more reliable than single-phase motors.  They are also much cheaper to buy (like 2/3, or even 1/2 the cost sometimes), especially in the larger sizes (5, 7.5, 10 hp).  3-phase is also preferred for smoothness of operation (the sum of the power from all 3 phases is a constant, rather than the pulsations of single-phase), if it's already available in your shop. 

   I only know ABB for larger motors and generators (1000's of hp), and they are also into big DC motors and controls (and a whole lot of other large-scale equipment not relevant here).  They are a world-class company in that business, like Reliance Electric.  They're not a household word in small motors in this country, and the motor they will provide for your machine is probably IEC standard (European), not NEMA, though electrically it may meet the NEMA standard (and be UL listed).  I don't think they make small NEMA frame motors.  Just make sure it is nameplated for your voltage (230/460V) and frequency (60Hz). 

   If they're going to change the motor only (rather than replace the whole machine), they could also simply replace it with a Baldor 3-phase motor of the same frame size, or any other domestic manufactured motor (of the same frame size).  That's the whole point of frame sizes and standardized nameplates; interchangeability.  The controls may or may not have to be replaced; sometimes the guts are 3-phase compatible, with only two of the three poles used.  But I'm sure they'll do whatever they have to do.

   But as far as the ABB brand name, I have no doubt the motor will outlast the sander, and it will probably outlast you and me both.  Any competent motor shop should also be able to replace the bearings, or rewind it.  But for the $200 to $300 for a new motor, it may not even be worth the trouble if it did go bad at some point.Be seeing you...

7. 
   fredsmart48 | Feb 23, 2003 03:23am | #18

   now all you need is to install the 3 phase into the shop or a converter to get 3 phase.  not a lot of people have it available.

8. 
   TKanzler | Feb 23, 2003 04:15am | #19

   You know, I almost asked him if he had 3-phase in the shop, but that sander is such a big beast (not a hobby shop machine, at least not my hobby shop), I just kind of assumed he has it.  I also assumed his salesman would have asked the question.  But you know what they say about assume....

   http://www.extremamachine.com/drumsanders/ds372.htmlBe seeing you...

9. 
   clampman2 | Feb 25, 2003 08:29am | #20

   Spoke,

   Unless you have 3 phase power already in your shop, I'd stick with the noisy single phase. If someone talks you into a static phase converter, then believe me, you'll have some noise, but while you're sanding and not just when winding down.

   Even rotary converters work better the more three phase motors you have running on the same circuit.

   I have three phase in my machine shop but only single phase in my wood shop. Since my drum sander is 3 miles from my 3 phase, I hardly use it since the static converter just doesnt give it the juice it needs.

   Good luck,

   Clampman

10. 
    camel | Feb 25, 2003 01:42pm | #21

    Thanks everyone for the info- I found out this last weekend that I don't have 3phase in the shop. Figures. I'm not messing with converting it right now.

    I will be building my official shop sometime this spring finally. I will make sure it's wired for anything and more. I'll just have to live with the noise, I guess. Piss on it, at least the performance of the sander isn't compromised. Thanks.John E. Nanasy

11. 
    T | Feb 25, 2003 05:32pm | #22

    Hey, this is kinda like what happens to me when I turn off my 18" Rockwell planer.

    It has a 5 hrs. sngl. ph. for cuttin, and a small prob. 1 hrs. for feedin. When it is windin down just before it stops it shudders alittle.

    I figured it was belts for all these years (8) I've had it. I didn't think much of it till the other day I had to replace one of the drive pullies on the feed(locknut got loose and it came off and bent the old one) and when I tried it out with the cover off I noticed that the shudder did a little more than just that.

    It seems that as it winds down it must induce a curent at the point when the reset takes place on the starter mech., and the current causes the small motor to turn a few times advancing the feed.

    I still don't think it is a big deal but it is kinda strange. The motor just says Rockwell and nowhere do I see Baldor on it tho it could be anyway

    .

    What ya think about them apples? I guess some of the real woodworker guys will figure out all kind of bad stuf that could happen to me and my shop as a result,like causing the ozone hole to get bigger and the rain forest to studder, but I figure it is just one of those funny little things.

    Edited 2/25/2003 4:03:36 PM ET by A.T.

    Edited 2/25/2003 4:04:34 PM ET by A.T.

    Edited 2/25/2003 4:05:54 PM ET by A.T.

12. 
    tailsorpins | Feb 26, 2003 01:31am | #23

    DUH!

    See message 5 again for explanation about what's happening (as intended) inside your motor.  This is why I visit this forum less frequently, and post less and less. 

    The Baldor motor you are bludgeoning is perhaps the best current production integral horsepower, single phase motor with the highest service factor available to any tool manufacturer.  Service factors above 1.0 mean it's still overdesigned and overbuilt, with more iron and steel and copper than necessary to develop nameplate horsepower.  Try that with a Sears motor, especially those hyped as "developing XXX horsepower"....check the actual duty rating (actual number of minutes every hour that it can maintain that output)  It's eye opening.  A tool manufacturer that specifies Baldor must look long and hard to find a  better brand.  If smoothness in spindown were important, they would have selected an across the line start motor, and external capacitors/switching to get the load up and running.

    You haven't been ripped off by a greedy manufacturer, you are a victim of your own impatience, having made up your mind before posting your first message.  The whole premise suggests you enter this forum with an open mind.  It's no wonder the motor service center seems less than cooperative.....you simply don't have a problem for them to remedy.

    Adios Amigos

4. 
   tailsorpins | Feb 20, 2003 07:35pm | #4

   I believe the sound and vibration you experience is the centrifugal starting switch resetting to it's start position.  Most single phase motors start with the internal windings electrically connected to provide a high starting torque, some using a capacitor for the extra kick to get the load rotating, then, at a predetermined rpm ("centrifugal switch"), the windings are switched to the running mode.  The most significant worry you might have in a woodworking machine, is IF the switch were prevented from accomplishing this action by a buildup of saw dust or tiny chips.  Vacuum the ventilation openings periodically, do not blast them clear with compressed air, as it will often serve to imbed the debris where it necessitates disassembly to remove.

   The motors are "in balance" at running speed, and may be somewhat out of balance as they slowly run down, thus the shudder you experience.  In some designs, this also functions as a magnetic brake, to hasten spin-down.   I'd worry only if it were overheating or vibrating at operating speed.  As different manufacturers have differing designs, it's possible others do not have this experience. 

   John

5. 
   Turbo | Feb 21, 2003 05:11am | #8

          Something isn't right.  I would refer you back to Mr. Tom Kanzler's thread.  I've used a number of motors, even pitched some.  Balador is one of the best motors I've found.  I didn't appreciate that they made single phase, five horsepower motors.  I've been communicating with them to develop a variable-speed grinder for various sharpening wheels, as well as grinder (higher speed) wheels.  I hope you stick with it until you have some good answers for your sander, or a replacement.

1. 
   camel | Feb 21, 2003 05:28am | #9

   Thanks for the response. Why didn't you like that Baldor made a 5hp 1 phase? You seem to be alot more knowledgeable than I am about motors, just curious.

   Although I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond, you seem to be the only one to really see what I'm trying to explain. You're right, something isn't right. I will figure this out, or get a new sander.

   I've really had it with these susposedly "industrial, high performance," companies producing junk and reaming every woodworker for they're every last dollar they can get away with. And then on top of it, the service sucks, the morons on the phone don't know jack about what the hell they are susposed to be representing and selling.

   This prospero really sucks too, you used to be able to swear and the old system would type it.

   I forgot, before I went here this morning, I went to Baldors site and the support and contact part wasn't working. Figures.John E. Nanasy

6. 
   Rdan1 | Feb 22, 2003 12:17am | #12

   I have the same motor on an old 12" Belsaw planer, and it does the same thing that you're describing.  I just had the motor serviced and the capacitor replaced, and the people doing the repair didn't indicate that there was any other problem with the motor.  I guess after reading the responses I won't try the link belts just yet.  Keep us posted if any new info. on this phenomenon comes up.  Dan

7. 
   AlanTurner | Feb 26, 2003 02:11am | #24

   Can I ask an "off-thread" question?  From a link, I went to the Extrema site.  The end view of the drums look an awful lot like my older 1987 Kuster.  I know that Kuster went out of business.  Did Extrema acquire them?  I seem to recall that Splintie has a Kuster as well.  Just curious.  Mine works fine, no complaints except the dust, which I am in the process of remedying.