Here is my attempt at a ball and claw. It could be considered either my first or second try. I got about 1% of the way in on what was technically my first try before abandonment. It is practice and made out of poplar. It took approximately 4 hours.
There are a few changes that I will make on practice #2/3. I welcome (and am in need of) all criticism. Thanks
Matt
Replies
Mind-blowing for your first one. Perfectly useable in a project. Tone down the knuckle joints just a wee bit. Just a wee bit.
Don't get rid of all the tool marks. They are perfectly acceptable, expected, and you'll save some time too.
Edited 10/15/2007 4:38 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
I agree with what you point out. The knuckles were what I was hoping somebody would comment on. I was hoping somebody would say 'too much' or 'just right'. I haven't seen enough of these that are on something other than Ethan Allen's.
On to the tool marks: I actually sanded them off because I wanted to see what the difference was. I will probably only scrape it in the future. It is too clean. It's not just taking those marks off, but it's going back and fixing all of the slight irregularities that these marks hide. 30 minutes lost making the ball better. 12% longer.
Thanks for the input. These changes will be made. I was happier with the final product than I had thought that I would be.
Matt,
I've seen worse efforts from "pros".
Couple suggestions/ observations tho, if you don't mind.
1) I like to"roll" the ankle a little more, above the rear toe. Think of a curve beginning above the rear toe, rounding down and over to each of the side toes. This means you will remove more wood in the rear of the ankle, above the back toe, and then the rear toe will angle back out from the undercut, to its first knuckle.
2) the transition from the first, to the second knuckle on those side toes is a bear ain't it? Try cutting a little off the tops of those first knuckles, in lieu of just rounding over the surface left from the bandsaw.
3) I like to undercut (round "under") just slightly, the toes where they meet the ball, instead of letting them meet the ball at a right angle. It gives the impression that they are separate from the ball and grasping it, rather than being of a piece with it.
Of course, all this does depend on the particular foot you are trying to duplicate. Some are more dragonlike, some birdlike, some blocky. Some balls are spherical, some eggshaped, some like a squashed tomato, being squeezed between the toes.
Well done, I wish my first ball and claw feet looked that good!
Ray
I thought of suggestions #2 and 3. #1 I hadn't considered as much. I plan on making 4 practice feet before taking on the feet for my project and will use each of your suggestions at one point. I am making two of the Queene Anne side chairs that Gene Landon reproduced in a recent FWW mag. This is way over my head. I have no desire to make anything for which I have the necessary skill set going in, however. Wish me luck. I will post the finished project in 6-8 months.
Edited 10/15/2007 7:09 pm ET by MattInPA
Matt,
Absolutely beautiful!
Might I ask which tools were required, especially the chisels? I'm trying to get the chisels I need for carving embellishments on 18c. furniture and the B&C is one I want to try.
I'm getting reasonably comfortable making cabriole legs and the embellishments are the next step I wish to take.
Again, very well done. Thanks for the inspiration.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Nice work! If I tried that it would take me a year to make one!
Sure wish I could carve something.. ANYTHING..!
Will
Carving starts somewhere and builds up. The guy that got me started was from Europe and very dogmatic. Everything was his way or the highway. I was OK with that because I wanted to learn no matter what was presented. I think he was a "hard-head" because that's how he learned and that's the way he thought it should be transfered.
Bottom Line: all carvers must learn to carve the volute. There are a million volutes and lots of ways to do them but... they define the sweep of the tools that will define your work. I won't get long here but study some volutes and carve a few in scraps you have around the shop. Its amazing how fast you will learn to capture shadows and crisp lines.
all carvers must learn to carve the volute..I never have made one of those. I can carve a 'bit'. However, I cannot
make two or more carvings for furniture that look the same.I guess in my mind carving is like Art. You either 'have it' or you do NOT! I have taken some art classes (long ago) where they said "anybody can be taught to draw Etc.". Wanna' bet!I am no carver or artist but I DO love the look of carved objects.
Even if it is a old wooden Troll on a house step.To me 'real carving' is something I saw on the cover of Lee Valley Fall 2007 mini catalog.Cover Photo: LOVE carved by Mohammed Taheri .. Woodbridge, OntarioOr a old Carrousel....But then again I think the girls arm is to skinny in that beautiful carving.
That's good Will. I'm glad you quoted me and I see my tone can seem.. a bit assuming.
Carving a free standing bird is very different from carving a shell on a leg or a daisy on a rifle. Its very intimidating to the untrained but schooling will make it a whole lot more understandable. Over the years I have met so many guys who have been so impressed with carving but it doesn't inspire them- on the other hand it discourages them. That stinks to me.
Yes I know lots of guys who just grab a pencil and draw these unbelievable patterns on a piece of wood and take off. Many you are seeing for the first time have sketched that pattern 1000 times. Don't give up just doodle. On a trip to Williamsburg a few years back I had a chance to shoot the .... with Mack Headley(master at the shop). He talked about how many times he sat at the bench during his lunch and sketched roccoco designs and acanthus foliage until it flowed. He told me his early stuff was so ugly, he burned it so nobody would find the cumbled up pieces of paper in the next century. Its not magic you just have to relax and doodle. Don't try so hard at times and it seems easier.
Back to the Volute: The volute is fun to carve and it helps you decide what tools do I want to start out with and what grind will feel good for you?? Take out a pencil and get the flow going. Let go of the 90 degree world, jigs, and .000002 cutting edges.
Photo attached: Larry Gardners' patchbox. This guy does this kind of detailed artwork and he couldn't tell you a honing jig from a diamond stone. Larry lets the brass in with an exacto knife and a 60watt bulb. He zeroes out all the laws of high tech or bust. It inspires me and makes me go home and grind old files into carving tools. Tools that are just right for the job. Yep the one I am doing not LV.
later.
Danmart,
I don't know if you just started posting pictures or if I just haven't noticed them in the past. They are all awesome! They are beautiful and are a welcome derivation of what we often see. The physical execution, carvings and the finishing are inspiring. Thank you.
Matt
Edited 10/21/2007 6:46 pm ET by MattInPA
Dan,
YIKES again!
Your words are as meaningful as your pics. That post just opened up a whole new beginning for me. Thank you very much.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
The work in Dan's photo is wonderful, but his words are worth their weight in pure gold. The guy who did the work didn't use the best and most expensive tools available. The guy didn't focus on the tools or on the techniques that others have developed. He figured out a way to get a fantastic job done with a $2 tool, and it works for him.The answer in woodwork is the same as in music. Practice, practice, practice. Here on Knots, we more often take the approach of talk, talk, talk. Or in the Cafe, they argue, argue, argue. I believe that the professionals here want the rest of us to keep talking so we won't be practicing and thus becoming so good that we can give them a run for their money. (I am a conspiracy theorist.) :-)MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Another funny thing about Larry is: he's left handed. When I watch him carve I'm twisting and turning my head all the time.
Additionally, I like to carve using the mallet and I also use a small hammer to engrave little features in the brass. Larry just pushes these little gravers around like a duck swimming figure eights in a pond. Yep I get frustrated at how easy he makes it look. I have seen Larry engrave while he's talking to his grandson eating a cheeseburger.
What can you say? Back to the bench I guess? I have to draw file a barrel and finish installing the little barrel lugs/tenons. Yea they are dovetailed in. Can't take the little woodhead anywhere.
Dan
Edited 10/22/2007 4:58 pm ET by danmart
WillGeorge,
Another reason that a volute is a great place for a beginner to start is that it will quickly teach you about grain direction, since you'll have to carve a full 360 degrees or more.
Matt
Another reason that a volute is a great place for a beginner to start is that it will quickly teach you about grain direction, since you'll have to carve a full 360 degrees or more.
Now that's what I really meant. Ha. Well said.
later
osl
Looks great, especially for a first.
FYI Gene Landon sells plans for that piece (I think) and several others, I don't have any first hand knowledge but they could be invaluable.
http://www.oldemill.com/pub-drawings.html
mousejockey
I bought the plans for the chair from Olde Mill. They have been taped on the wall for a few weeks now. The pieces have been roughed out and are just acclimating to the shop while I practice. soon...
Hi Matt,
Try this link for some great pictures. I find that looking at the originals really help. You should date that copy and set it on the shelf. Sort of a badge of honor.
Keep up the good work
dr
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/WebZ/initialize?sessionid=0&next=html/search.html&bad=html/search.html&dbchoice=1&active=1&entityCurrentPage=Search1&javascript=true&dbname=DLDecArts&style=DLDecArts
Edited 10/18/2007 11:30 pm by bluejay
Nice work! I don't know about toning down the knuckles. I think that I like it. It gives it a bit of "creep".
Best,
John
Matt,
You have gotten some great feedback from some great woodworkers. Of course, you also got some other feedback. The problem on Knots is to figure out which of the pieces of feedback is best or most useful to you, or something like that.
What I am about to say is said in seriousness, but others will not think so. I am about to disagree with some of Knots' best. So if I were you, I would pay attention to them, not me. After all, what do I know? But if you want to open the discussion just a bit for a second, try this.
When I first saw your photos of your Ball and Claw feet, I thought they were were wonderfully artistic. I still feel that way. I knew that they are not "traditional". You got some great feedback on how to make your B&C feet more traditional.
BUT my question to you is, Is that what you really want to do? I like yours better than the those with a traditional look. Yours have an artistic flair. Yours have an exuberant enthusiasm. Yours are DISTINCTIVE. If you entered them in a contest judged by traditionalists, you would surely be marked down. BUT suppose you entered them into an art contest in which the judges were not traditional woodworkers? They might just love it.
Who is to say that the way it was done traditionally is the best way or the way you ought to do it. My approach would be to develop my own style. Your approach ought to be one of your own choosing. BUT what you did was, IMHO, beautiful, distinctive, and of a high order of excellence.
There, now you should be completely confused.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Standing ovation.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Are you crazy? You agreed with me in public! Ray and the other respondents to this thread are going to be upset with you. You'd better retract your rash statement.
:-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,
I bet if you were a teacher, all your students would turn out to be above average. ;-) Of course you are right in that judgement of all artistic endeavor is subjective. And if no one dared diverge from tradition, there could be no (or at least very slow) progress.
I hope that my post and critique of the original poster's work was not seen as passing judgement of the quality of his workmanship; rather as pointing out areas of divergance with tradition, and regional variations within the scope of traditional work that could be explored.
Is there a difference in one's approach being non-traditional, from ignorance of tradition, vs flaunting a known ( having first acquired a mastery of) tradition? I wonder.
Ray
Ray,
I took pains to insure that I would not be perceived as disagreeing with you or the others who gave feedback on how to do traditional Ball and Claw carving. You gave VALUABLE feedback. It was detailed and easy to understand. I read it four times. To me, the best way to break the chains of the past, if one wants to, is to learn the ways of the past, and learn them well, not in a cursory manner, and then truck on. I have carved an Easter Island God, yet I asked your advice on carving traditional shells, and you gave me great advice. I am actually more interested in traditional forms than non-traditional. I do like to keep one foot in each camp. That allows everyone to find something or mine to criticize. :-) By the way, I entered three pieces of chip carving in the Capital Area Woodcarvers contest a few weeks ago. They were the first three chip carvings that I have done (all this year). I entered them in the intermediate division. I took First, Second and Third place. Are you impressed?If you said you were impressed, then you didn't know that I was the only entrant. Next year, I plan to enter something more traditional, or maybe something made with one of the long knives. :-)Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I certainly appreciate your responses. I am not looking to necessarily break new ground at this point. Mel said it best by stating "the best way to break the chains of the past, if one wants to, is to learn the ways of the past, and learn them well, not in a cursory manner, and then truck on." I have made another and plan on two more with features more along the lines of what you and Charles said, not with the shape of the ball but with the undercuts (not completely undercut talons), heel, toned down knuckles and no sanding.
When people make the jump to creating their own line too early they often, from what I have seen, end up with a piece that they too aggressively forced their skill set upon: very good craftsmanship with too many contrasting species, ogee feet that don't seem to flow, excessive drawers to show off dovetails, etc. I digress...
I will be probably post a few other parts that I practice on down the line. Please tell me what you think of them if you see the thread. I will certainly consider it and probably even dedicate several hours to duplicate it, but it may not end up in the final piece, no offense. Thank you
Matt
Thank you for the response. I surely appreciate your input. I will probably take a few suggestion from the above and pass on others for the final piece. I have the luxury of not having a deadline so I will be able to make a few others and choose what I like best. I am looking to make a close copy of the original. Except where my skills fall short, those places will be my interpretation of the original. Like driving off the tee on a split fairway, I won't tell you which way I'm going. You'll just see the outcome and can assume that it was intended...
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