The more I read about the dangers of using a table saw the more concerned I become about using it. I am wondering if a band saw,and router could replace the TS? I have a cut-off saw to cut to length and a jointer to clean up the BS cuts. Anyone have experience and/or opinions as to whether this setup would work?
Sometime I sits and thinks and sometimes I just sits
Replies
some do just as you describe.
but, it'd be hard to match the efficiency of a tablesaw with that of a bandsaw.best to learn to use a ts safely, and understand exactly why kickback occurs, so that fear is replaced by knowledge.
Expert since 10 am.
Up until recently I have not had a tablesaw, only a 14" bandsaw and RAS. I found the bandsaw to be a safe, and fairly accurate method for working with solid wood, particularly breaking down thicker/larger stock. That said, if you are going to do any casework, ie: working with plywood/melamine sheets, you should consider a tablesaw.
I find that I am rethinking my use of the bandsaw and it may see less work in the future, in light of the new tablesaw. If you are doing solid wood projects only, you can do quite a bit with a bandsaw and jointer (or even hand planes). BS Blades are a constant cost, as carbide TS blades last much longer.
Cheers, Nathan
I just purchased a bandsaw, and its great. But like Nathan said, its strong point is working with solid stock. I wouldn't give up my tablesaw, but you have to appreciate the dangers when using it. For the first time ever I had a piece of mdf throw at my stomach. Made me stop and think. Another option is the Saw Stop, lots of dollars but many here really like them.
I have gotten by without a good table saw for a year or so. I think that a router and a band saw can pretty much take the place of a table saw. Some things are just a bit slower.
With that said I just this morning put downs some sweet mulla on a Delta 36-717.
I have a bandsaw, a jointer, and hand planes. I don't have great options for crosscutting, other than a portable circular saw, so with a cut-off saw you're one step ahead of me. :@)
WIth the small size of my shop, and the type of work I'm planning to do, I found that I had to make a choice between table saw and bandsaw, and came down on the bandsaw side. I think that getting clean cuts on plywood has been a little more difficult (but not impossible), but other than that I have not found that I've missed a table saw.
I have a Bandsaw/ Radial arm and Tablesaw. And the tablesaw gets used about 80% more often that the other two put together. Respect the tablesaw and learn it's quirks and you will use it more often. I remember my first chain saw and the horror stories I heard about them and was very shaky about using it till I became the master with time and experience. ALL power tools are dangerous to one extent or another.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Just remember what a butcher uses to cut meat - a bandsaw.
Right about the Butcher ! And He doesn't get a glue quality cut either ;-)Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Guy Gadois,
Having owned both if I had only one to use I'd pick a bandsaw.. Very little that is done with a Table saw couldn't also be done with a circular saw and a pair of sawhorses.
Once people figure out that a straight edge turns a circular saw into a pretty fair table saw, the reall value of a band saw becomes apparent..
Now a cavot!
I don't know it to be a fact but an emergency room doctor told me that he saw many more injuries from bandsaws than he did from tablesaws.
That screaming whine of wood being sliced by a spinning blade tended to create care. whereas the relitively quite bandsaw blade has people putting their fingers much closer to the meatsaw er bandsaw than prudance demands..
>>That screaming whine of wood being sliced by a spinning blade tended to create care. whereas the relitively quite bandsaw blade has people putting their fingers much closer to the meatsaw er bandsaw than prudance demands..Maybe so, but I bet most of the severest woodshop accidents (fatalities especially) are kickback accidents that could only occur on a tablesaw, not a bandsaw.
Though I'm sure there must be freak accidents that kill or maim people with just about any tool.
I use all 3 of the tools you mentioned for different functions. I suppose I could get by without a TS but I wouldn't want to...as mentioned, it is quite efficient, and definitely more accurate than a BS. The BS does seem intuitively safer, and I suspect statistics would support that theory.
I'm not positive that the router is any safer than the TS though. Statistically, the TS might have a higher number of accidents, but I doubt that the ratio of injuries per use is significantly higher...I'm just speculating out loud, but if you dug into the facts behind the stats, I think you'd find that there are just more people who use a TS, therefore a higher total # of accidents. Also, keep in mind that there is a high number of cheapie, poorly tuned table saws operatated by inexperienced folks, which contributes to the high number of accidents. More weekend warriors have table saws than have routers, but I'll bet the stats get skewed by us zealots who own 3-5 routers each!
They both have their purpose. One just needs to understand their limitations and dangers. That being said, I would say the bandsaw is probabley the safer of the two.
Paul
I suppose I might as well be the one to suggest that more and more folks are eschewing a table saw in favor of one of the circular saw guided systems:
Scroll down to the bottom of this page, and you will see the various packages that are available:
http://www.eurekazone.com/products/index.html
And the other:
http://www.festoolusa.com/category.aspx?ID=3
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I just thought of something that I'm not sure how to do with any tool besides a TS....how would folks make a large cove cut without one?
"...how would folks make a large cove cut without one (a table saw)?"What about a shaper or moulder? Either one seems better than running stock sideways against a table saw blade.
Knotscott,
the way they should be done, On a shaper!
I hate the idea of coping on a table saw! I can spot it about 3/4 of a mile away and my eyesite is beginning to fail! (not to mention the danger!)
Coping on a table saw. I can't believe that some shops still allow this. There are more dangerous things you can do on a TS, but this is right up there.
Talk to a blade manufacturer about using a blade in this way and they will strongly advise against it. And for once, such advice is not just the CYA variety.
Rich
I have cut coves on a table saw numerous times and there is nothing about the technique, when properly set up, that makes it any more dangerous than any other cut on a table saw. The technique has been described in numerous articles and books for years and so far as I know, no blade manufacturer has ever come out with a recommendation against it.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
You folks have discussed why the low traffic on this form. The above post is an example of the type of sanctimonious reply that turns new folks off. Maybe the fellow is having a bad day, or he has trouble expressing himself, I'm sure to meet him he would be a nice fellow, but that is the way to discourage discussion.
Or maybe it's me.
His reply looked perfectly reasonable and informative to me. The only thing that puts me off the FW forums is the way the forum software operates, but the content is very high quality.
I guess sanctimony like many things is in the eye of the beholder. I always feel that when I see fonts such as that, the author is trying to say "look at me". There may be other reasons for the author to use such a font that I am unaware of.
I agree, the content of the forum is of high quality, but lacking in volume.
Fonts and Forums
John was never one to draw attention to himself, so I'd guess the enlarged font was more likely attributable to strange behavior of the forum software at the time. (Yes, it has behaved even more strangely than it does now.) But, one would need to be familiar with the history of FWW and Knots to be aware of John's personality and contributions here.
FWIW, John is a real expert on shop machinery, and his book, "Care and Repair of Shop Machines" is an excellent addition to any shop library.
http://www.amazon.com/Care-Repair-Shop-Machines-Troubleshooting/dp/156158424X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1343915581&sr=1-1&keywords=John+White+shop+tools
Hi Guy I had a radial arm saw for many years it was great new but.... it finally got hungry for flesh and it was partly my mistake, I got rid of it and bought a table saw and it is great I do have a bandsaw also but the TS is great you can make a lot more different cuts and it is as safe as the the person using it wants to make it.Practice with it with soft wood first, like everything else don't get over confident and respect your tools. Have Fun Guy
Mark PS. The way you describe would work also but having a TS is great.
I've worked in production shops for some time, also kept my own smaller shop going at the same time. Can't imagine doing without a decent shop tablesaw. Just the quickest way to make most cuts, especially bevels, dadoes, rabbetts etc.. not to mention the basic rip cuts, accurate miters(with sleds),on and on.
But, I absolutlely love a well tuned bandsaw and am looking to buy a decent one for resawing, and for upgrading from the hand jigsaws I've used forever.
my vote is to buy a tablesaw, a hand jigsaw and keep your eye out for a used bandsaw sometime down the line. Far easier to do without a bandsaw than a tablesaw IMHO.
I have a TS, a band saw, and a sliding CM saw. Of the three, the band saw is a distant third in use. While one can do a lot of things with any tool that is not normally done, the question that goes begging is why?
If you are afraid of the TS and can't get past it, then I suppose for you that doing what you can on the bandsaw is the appropriate thing.
I hope you get it all worked out.
Thank you all for your valuable advice and comments regarding this topic.
I have purchased a Powermatic 2000 table saw which has a quick release riving knife. I am also considering an overhead blade guard. Looking through the archives it appears that the Excalibur or Penn State guards would work. I have searched the archives and all users recommended the guards. I also have a Jet 18" BS,horizontal and vertical router tables and a jointer, so I now have no excuses not to build something!
Sometime I sits and thinks and sometimes I just sits
Edited 2/13/2007 11:15 pm by Guy Gadois
Wow, That decission for the PM 2000 didn't take very long !! Enjoy ;-)
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Guy
The best way to overcome fear is with knowledge. It's been said here already, but safety is required when using ALL power tools, and hand tools as well. The very moment that you disrespect a power tool, (especially) is the moment that you put yourself at risk.
You can use your bandsaw to make your table saw safer. Take some scraps, and make yourself different sized feather boards and push sticks. Don't allow yourself to perform dangerous tasks, and don't let your hands get within 6 to 8 inches of the blade. This can easily be avoided with push sticks. And, if all else fails, and you still have fear, invest in a power feeder for ripping operations.
Knowledge is power, and it should help you overcome your concerns with the tablesaw.
Walnutz
Thats good advice Walnutz. You touched on a point that I was about to make about the number of possible safety techniques with the TS vs the BS. I have always felt safer using the TS over the BS mainly because of the larger amount of safety options there are such as a blade guard or push sticks. The best way I've found of protecting yourself against injury with the BS (atleast in my past) is to just keep your hands away from the blade and making sure that the blade is tight and plum.
Also like someone has already mentioned before, I have a bigger problem getting too comfortable with the BS and getting my fingers WAY TOO CLOSE to the blade. A lot of times I use the BS to cut smaller pieces of wood at very irregular shapes so my concentration level is at an all-time high and I just lose track of where my fingers are. I just don't have that problem with the TS I guess because #1 all of my cuts are just straight cut, #2 I understand how dangerous it is and #3 how easily things can go South in a hurry.
Cheers with the new TS though :) I'm looking for one now that I moved out of the shop I used to work in.
Nice to hear that you have ordered the PM 2000. I have one setting in my shop waiting for assembly. I took delivery about three hours ago.
The riving knife will vertually eliminate kickback. I have been using a Delta contractor saw for a long time. I have had a few kickbacks. Only once was the kickback violent enough to really get my attention. I have to confess that I removed the blade guard on the contraactor saw. I am going to give the blade guard and Riving knife a try and see if it is not too restrictive. I just hate those efforts to "save"me.
So far, I can report that the quality of workmenship on the parts I have examined so far has been impressive. I am going to absolutely love the fence.
I hope you thoroughly enjoy your new purchase.
The most dangerous saw in my shop WAS my radial arm saw. Having said that, it wasn't the saw that was dangerous. It was the manner in which it was/is used. Technique is what determines safe from dangerous with any tool that is in good repair. Any tool can be used in an unsafe manner. As example, anyone ever slice themselves using a chisel incorrectly? I tried to use my RAS to rip boards and it did it, but I'm lucky to have not been injured. THAT was scary. The closest I've recently been to being injured is with a bandsaw, even though I was following proper procedures. In fact, it was the fact that I was following proper procedures that I didn't get hurt when something unexpected happened as I was cutting. My tablesaw is a wonderful tool and is used on every project I work on, as much as I love my bandsaw, I wouldn't be without my tablesaw. I also wouldn't be without my bandsaw. The RAS is history!!Bottom line, work safe, use accepted procedures and use proper safety equipment. Don't work when you're tired, and don't get in a hurry. Follow these rules and you won't get hurt, with ANY tool.Jeff
I dont' yet own a tablesaw, and use my bandsaw for all ripping. I find that the only
drawbacks are the surface quality of the cut, which needs a little more planing than a TS cut, and the fact that I can't do buried cuts for rabbets.
My advise, if you go this route, is to get a good wide (3/4" or wider) blade for your BS. The "Wood Slicer" from Highland Hardware (Highlandwoodworking.com) is very good, and is what I use. It is $40 and stays sharp for a long time. An even better option would be a blade with brazed on 'carbide style' teeth such as the laguna resaw king blade. At $200 or so they aren't cheap, but they last a REALLY long time. (longer than a tablesaw blade because they have many more teeth) This style blade produces a very fine finish on the cut as well.
This leads me to one last gripe. If you use the bandsaw to rip and to do curves, you will have to change blades between operations to get decent results.
Guy, the bottom line is that all power tools are dangerous if you don't know how to use them with care, competence and confidence. I have all the tools you talk about and use them regularly. The table saw is inherently no more dangerous to ME than the band saw, but is capable of much greater accuracy and precision for certain types of cuts. I wouldn't want to do without it. Yes, you can do most table saw cuts in other ways, and figuring out how is one of the pleasures of woodworking.
IMO, the router is by far and away the most potentially dangerous tool I have, especially in a table. It's potentially dangerous because when it goes wrong, it goes very wrong and it happens so instantaneously. I am very much more careful and aware when I'm using a powerful router in a table than with any other tool, particularly if I'm hand feeding.
Go and do an introductory course to the table saw before you make any decision (e.g. the ones that W**dcraft run). Some hands-on experience is much more informative and confidence inspiring than many hours of reading other peoples' opinions. Both a carefully set up and tuned table or band saw is a delight to use, so learn how to do this properly and stop worrying about it. Don't be tempted to buy a cheap and cheerful saw, of either type. As with all tools, quality tools will repay you more handsomely in the long run.
Eoin
I could not agree more to what you said Eoin. Any tools must be handled with safety and caution all the time. Learning how to use the tools properly will go a long way. Always have that presence of mind and stay focused with what you are doing. Knowing when to stop may very well save fingers, hands or any precious part of the body.
Any tool or machine poses danger to our safety. For me, a band saw is as dangerous as a table saw when an attitude of lack of caution and imprudence is present when handling it. Extra caution, deep focus, presence of mind and ability to learn when to stop are keys to efficient tool handling.
Old post
xx
You are responding to a 5-year old post, but the underlying issue remains valid, as does the need for proper training and tool safety awareness.
I'm reminded of the story about the woodworking shop instructor who would repeatedly take new students to a butcher shop next door, allowing the students to watch the butcher cut up sides of beef on a band saw, slicing through both meat and bone. Although the butcher shop seemed to have little to do with woodwroking, on the third day or so a collective light went on over the students' heads.
Guy,
My $0.02.
I have a Shopsmith and you want to talk about respect for a TS, try cutting a bevel on a machine where the table tilts 45 deg and your hand passes over the blade using the miter gauge.
A TS accident occurs every 9 minutes. Strangely, the person most frequently injured is the professional who uses the equipment daily.
Your fear is very good, as long as it's a healthy respect for the tool and not a paralyzing fear when the blade begins to spin. Use it to assure you are never injured. Get a good book on the TS, or DVD, or take a hands on seminar.
Cabinetmakers for years had no tablesaw. So there are alternatives. I just can't imagine never having one.
All that said, I have 3 young children and I plan on purchasing the Sawstop for their safety. Although it could happen to me, I am very cautious around machinery that can injure someone. But I will gladly invest 1.5 - 2x more for the safer saw — even though it means I have to do something else right now.
I have never had anything but mediocre results with the Shopsmith cutting hardwood. I use a clamp-n-guide, a square, and an 18V cordless circular saw to rip sheet goods. It cuts 3/4" ply very well — square & straight. It does take more effort than using a TS, but it can be done.
In the interrim of purchasing the Sawstop, I have considered a Festool TS55 circular saw and rail to cut sheet goods. I am buying a bandsaw first, and will use it for rip cuts under 15.5 inches wide.
Hope this helps.
Edited 2/22/2007 1:51 pm ET by Cincinnati
Why not Track Saw and Bandsaw?
I also dislike using the tablesaw - I'm sure in part because it is a cheap contractor Ryobi. But with my TS-55 Track Saw and bandsaw, I fiind the only thing I need the TS for is narrow rips - usually ripping 5/4 x 6 decking in half..
The TS-55 is perfect for all sheet goods work. It is great for wide crosscuts I can't do on my chop saw.Absolutly no need for a TS sled. It is accurate enough on rips over 4" and maybe up to 48" or so in length without hassle. Plus, when necessary, I can do rips up to 70" or so in my 16' shop - all inside - without having to push the stock out the door. .
The bandsaw is used for anything really small and/or short.
I own both and have a strong preference for the table saw. It's fast, precise, and easy to use. The biggest drawback of using a band saw is that the quality of the cut is rough and needs to be addressed before glue up, so plan on an extra step for every cut. Precision is also lagging compared to a TS....you can get close with a BS, but it's just not in the same league IME. A TS is easily capable of making glue ready cuts that are within a few thousands of an inch of aim.
Any cutting tool can injure and/or amputate you. A TS can be used safely with some precaution and use of safety devices like a splitter/riving knife, featherboards, push sticks, correct choice of sharp blade, good alignment, straight flat lumber, and a saw that has sufficient operating space, mass and stability, which generally means a full size saw (contractor saw, hybrid, or cabinet saw).
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