Replies

1. 
   Danford_C._Jennings | Nov 15, 2001 07:51am | #1

   *
   Bald,

   Yes, I've cut through dovetails on the band saw successfully. Haven't read Duninsky's book so, I can't comment on his methods. Having not used a router for dovetails, I can't comment on that comparison either.

   FWIW, I normally cut them by hand.

   Dano

1. 
   redplumjam | Nov 15, 2001 05:14pm | #2

   *bc-yep- through dovetails are a cinch on the bandsaw. use it to hog the waste when you're sawing them by hand.i've not seen the book you're referring to. check tage frid's book om joinery- there's a good dovetail section. I tried a d4 leigh jig for a coupla days using a bunch of different materials & found there was much more to worry about & fuss with- any mistake (usually rampant tearout) was magnified by the speed & power of the router. it's tough to toss that stock you've spent so long prepping..of course there are many who swear by 'em. i'd suggest choosing your jointing methods with your gut. how do you want to make your pieces?have funalex

1. 
   bcanada | Nov 16, 2001 06:48am | #3

   *I'm must be truly in the presents of the masters here. I don't have the skill, patience nor time to handcut. I would have thought the competition would have pressured even the best to some sort of automation here. What am I missing. At any rate his book is a mixed blessing in that this portion of his book, Dovetails, was rittled with typos and confusing and misinformation. It took me for ever to fight through all the mistakes. His concept in general was all he claimed, however. His jigs and spacer boards are the real timesavers eliminating any need for tedious marking. A very rudimentary math he worked out allows any size spacing and depth assuring 1/2 pins to finish all sides for strength. I'm making jigs for 7 and 10 degree cuts which should take care of all my needs except for blind dovetails (which I can live without). Best of all they have that hand cut look. I won't pursue this Duninsky's book any further. If I could get my hands on him I would ring his neck for all the confusing misinformation.Regards and thanks for the comments to both of you.

1. 
   Rob_Millard | Nov 16, 2001 08:38pm | #4

   *Sawing dovetails is the quickest part of the process of hand dovetailing. I have never used a router jig to make dovetails. While I find the bandsaw to be the most useful power tool in my shop, I can’t see how it could compete with my dovetail saw, for speed and accuracy. Far too much mystique is attached to hand dovetailing, all it amounts to is sawing and chiseling to a line. I taught myself to dovetail in a couple of easy trials. Anyone could do the same. I took a cheap Stanley saw and pounded out all the set, so it would track accurately. Scribe the base line with a cutting gauge. I start with the tails. Saw to the line (accuracy is not too important here, just don’t saw pass your base line. Chop out the waste, I use to use a coping saw to remove the bulk of the waste, but this is (pardon the pun) a waste of time. I use the special Japanese dovetail chisels, their keen edge, and tapered cross section permit rapid waste removal. When scribing the pins, I let the tails go past the base line a tiny fraction, as this insures a tight fit. Experience will tell you how much to let it project, but when joining softwood to hardwood you can get away with something around a 64th. On hardwood to hardwood joints about half this is good. Sawing the pins is where the accuracy comes in to play. Spend an afternoon cutting a series of joints, in hardwood with SHARP tools, and you’ll be well on your way to being an expert. Speed will come with repetition, and learning to work efficiently. The Frank Klause video from FWW is a great way to see how to work quickly and accurately. He is able to cut the joints for a drawer in 20 minutes, I can come close to that on through dovetails, but ½ lap ones, take me more like 45 minutes. Joints for blanket chests and the tops of slant front desks are substantially, for me at least, more time consuming.

1. 
   Danford_C._Jennings | Nov 17, 2001 06:35am | #5

   *Bald, as Rob alluded to it doesn't take a master to cut dovetails.Rob, actually the band saw competes extremely well against hand cut doves, an all counts and will blow your doors off in terms of speed. After all, as you said: i ...all it amounts to is sawing and chiseling to a line.Dano...Still cut's 'em by hand with a cheap Stanley...b :)

2. 
   Rob_Millard | Nov 17, 2001 07:37am | #6

   *Well, I hate to admit it, but the old Stanley was retired early this year, when I purchased a Lie-Nielsen saw. I did not add that piece of information, because strive to get the word out, that you don’t need a shop full of expensive tools or complicated jigs to make great furniture. I paid $9.95 for that saw, and it did hundreds if not thousands of dovetails, and still could be making them. I still use my $7.95 Exacto saw, for very small dovetails, nothing could beat it. I rack my boards in the vise and saw them in multiples, when doing the tails, so the cutting goes very fast, probably no more than a minute or two. Since the bandsaw won’t cut half lap dovetails, I’ll stick to my handsaw. Sometimes, I think those people who write books find ways to fill up the pages, with less than well thought out ideas, and dovetails on the bandsaw and table saw fall in that category, but maybe I’m wrong. The only way I could see that working is if you made a production run of something, otherwise, while your cutting shims and making these elaborate set ups, my drawers are done.

3. 
   Danford_C._Jennings | Nov 17, 2001 10:00am | #7

   *Rob,I hear you loud and clear and agree with all except the band saw thingee. Wasn't trying to covert you, just to inform you. FWIW only have two simple jigs one for hardwood one for softwood, can get 'em set up before you get that L-N out of it's place of honor.b :)Any who, thought you might be interested in something "new" and fast, knowing the pride you take in your speed.b ;)Dano...b Still cuts 'em with a cheap Stanley.....

4. 
   bcanada | Nov 18, 2001 04:07am | #8

   *My two cents:Mr Jennings, in this artical from Dininsky's book he calls for 2 jigs. One for tails and one for pins.I find far too many who aught to know better shying away from jig construction. Most jigs I find are well worth the effort once you conquer the dread of perceived extra work. Mr Millard, I could not agree more that some put a lot of filler in books. This one is no exception. I take exception to the part about dovetails, however. I'm not about to challenge ether of yours' opinions. I don't have the experteze. One thing I will challenge is for anyone to work their way through the mistakes in this article. I am extremely proud to have discerned and corrected Mr Dininsky's mistakes. Giving full recognician to his craft expertese, I do raise the question of both his ability to communicate who ever helped him write this book. The mistakes were unforgivable. I'm going to say that its it sound like a pretty close race between the hand cut and bandsaw when it comes to making a couple of three drawers. building more than that I believe the bandsaw will become unapproachable. I'm planning on making a lot of boxes, personally. 2 things intrigued me the most about Mr. Millard hand cut. I have to wonder how bad that Japanese chisel is. It's got to be mean. #2 Aren't your half lapped dovetails done completely with a chisel?PS I'M encouraged by both of yours statements.PPs did you have to hammer the offsets out your new saw?

5. 
   Danford_C._Jennings | Nov 18, 2001 05:08am | #9

   *Bald,My jigs are nothing more than "ramps" one has a slope of 1:5 the other has a slope of 1:8, each are used only for cutting the pins. Each ramp probably took less than 5 minutes each to fabricate, been so long ago when they were made I can't remember. Takes me, and this is just a guess, maybe 5-10 seconds to set the jig up.The only "automation" is the actual cutting, I merely substitute the BS for the dovetail, when longer runs for drawers are required. Less chopping is required but paring is not eliminated.As to a close race between a band saw and hand saw, not even. Try to imagine the human hand going back and forth with a dovetail saw at the same rate of speed as a band saw blade.DanoP.S. Please, Dano is fine....Mr. is far too formal.

6. 
   Rob_Millard | Nov 18, 2001 05:43am | #10

   *I read the book you are referring to, when it first came out, and I can’t recall my impression of his writing style, but I do remember thinking how unnecessary all those jigs and set ups are. As I said too much lore surrounds dovetails, so writing about how to in theory speed up the process makes for good reading. Sometimes this does not translate well into the real world. I will admit, and I alluded to this in one of my other postings, that if you were to do a production run of something, the jigs would certainly be worth the time. The kind of work I do, has always involved one of a kind pieces. On these pieces the overwhelming majority of the drawer vary in size, with no two being the same depth, so I’d have to make a separate set up for each drawer. Now, maybe I’m wrong, but while I’d be making those set ups, I think I could have sawn the joints by hand, especially when sawing represents only a tiny fraction of the whole time involved. The Japanese chisels are a sight to behold in use. I got one as a gift, because I was too cheap to buy one for myself, but after that I bought myself 2 others. I ground them to a 20-degree bevel, since the steel could take this shallow angle. They will chop through a pine or poplar drawer side in 2-3 whacks per side. (my drawer sides are usually only 3/8-1/2” thick.) I work with mahogany 99.9% of the time, and this wood can range from very hard to sort of stringy. When cutting half laps in the hard variety, I will, if I have several drawers to do, fire up the router, and hog out the bulk of the waste. I did not remove the set from the Lie-Nielsen saw, as it comes with very little set. I think the saw is over priced, but it is a joy to use. I work hard to speed up my out put, but I still fall short of the old-timers, who never heard of a router, table saw, or bandsaw, which tells me power tools aren’t always the final answer to speed.

7. 
   bcanada | Nov 18, 2001 09:09am | #11

   *The Duninsky jigs and spacer boards take all the tedium out of marking and eye hand coordination with rock solid duplication cut after cut. His simple math assures half size pins at start and finish on each piece at any thickness including an infinite combination of pin and tail sizes or ratios. Half lap are not possible though. limited to about 10 inches in width alsoOn second thought having to reset for each drawer size would be too labor intensive after all. I would still be better off free handing on the BS with Dano's pin jigs though.I think I've seen those japanese chisels in a catalog somewhere.

8. 
   redplumjam | Nov 18, 2001 06:03pm | #12

   *2 more cents (or a few more things)a bandsaw's throat opening will limit the possible width of your dovetails- so it's likely that you'll wind up sawing them at some point anyway.i've got one jig for pin set up that helps align the table tilt to 8* one way or the other. (it's a veritas dovetail marking jig, inexpensive, aluminum). i like cutting pins first. a marking guage makes quick work of establishing consistent shoulder depth. you can make one or buy it.japanese dozuki saws are excellent for this type of joinery as well. i've got a relatively inexpensive "z" saw from woodcraft with replaceable blades. http://www.japanwoodworker.com/index.html sells the chisels you're talking about. there's a pretty huge array- the least expensive are the store's own bench chisels. i've had good experiences with this place. have funalex