I’d like to make an oak chest in the style of the Barnsleys – like that on page 42 of the Rodel/Binzen A&C book: (I can’t find any other web image).
I can find nothing at all about this chest and its construction – nothing on the web and nothing on the CD I purchased from The Cheltenham Town Museum, which contains scans of all the surviving Gimson/Barnsley drawings from their Cotswold days. Nothing in any of the books I have about the Cotswold school.
Does anyone have any knowledge – or even some educated guesses – about how the carcass goes together? I can see the proud DTd and the through M&Ts, as well as the curved frame & panel lid and the heavy chamfers. But the rest really would be guesswork on my part. I suppose it’s a challenge.
Any knowledgeable help appreciated.
Lataxe
Replies
hi lataxe,
when i click the page button to try and get to page 42 it goes as far as 38 and then jumps to page 50. more than likely, i am doing something wrong.
eef
went back and looked. it says that pages 39 to 49 are not included in the online version.
Edited 12/7/2009 4:18 pm ET by Eef
Eef,
If you can get the front page of the screen-book, use the "Contents" button to get the drop-down menu for the book. Choose "Cotswold" entry (Page 40). After it jumps there, scroll the webpage down a little bit 'til that chest comes into view.
I will be grateful when you have figgered the construction approach and rendered it into a nice pencil drawing on graph paper for me. :-)
Lataxe
lataxe,
perhaps you blighty boys get to view what we in america can only hope for. the contents page has bold, accessible headings and wimpy faded ones that are inaccessible. page 40 is of the latter variety. can you somehow upload at your end, from the online book, and then post it to knots?
i am scaring myself with so much computer talk...i am not good at this. but would very much like to see that chest.
eef
Can't get past page 24.
Alan - planesaw
If you google "Arts & crafts furniture: from classic to contemporary", you can click the link directly to the google book. Then all the chapter headings are ungreyed. Don't know why.
Nice chest. Very nice.
The powers that be can delete this post if they find it objectionable. Here is the chest in question.
Wow! That looks like an interesting piece to build. I can't wait to see your progress reports and the final.Is the lid hinged? Is the top a frame?
Bob,
Thank you for that handy screen print. I confess that I was in the process of doing the same thing but you beat me to the postbox. I don't know who has this chest in their collection. However, there is no web image of it that I can find, other than in the Rodel/Binzen googlebook. (I recommend this book to anyone who is an A&C fan, incidentally).
I do have a book about Gimson and the Barnsleys in which the half-made chest appears in a workshop scene. However, this photo is a small and obscure B&W thing which reveals little. The only significant construction fact is that the two end pieces - the proud-DT'd parts - appear to have been made first, then the rest of the carcase+lid built and attached atween them.
****
Dave, I was hoping you would tell me how the thang is constructed. :-) I don't want to copy it verbatim but rather use the motifs and design-elements to make one of my own, with a few variations in size, proportion and function. I like the proud DTs, the heavy chamfering and the curved frame&panel lid, as well as the through M&Ts and over-engineered / agricultural aspect.
Lataxe
The combination of an interest and limited information leads to interpolation, if you will, best case, in the style of, many a cup of coffee and time studying.
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Don
Don,
Just so - interpolations derived via the medium of some old graph paper, a rubber (I mean eraser) and pink-settee time with the cat: this is a time-honoured method for rough copy-guessing from a distance. Also a fine excuse for lazin' aboot. Shall I make some Yemeni Matari or is Hawian Kona the best brew for jump-starting the little grey cells? Ah ha! I shall gulp both.
Anyroadup, I have sharpened the drawknives and mortise chisels. The Very Best QS Anglish oak planks have been selected from the hoard.....................
Lataxe, very much looking forward to making another Cotswoldy piece.
Lataxe, old chum,
Not knowing the least bit about Cotswold, Barnsley or A & C furniture in general, I've held off til someone knowledgeable (Sgian) would step in with all the answers.
But, when has a lack of knowledge ever slowed, much less stopped a discussion here on knots??
Were I asked to build this chest, I'd frame the ends and float that panel to which the lift is attached. The front "panel" appears to be tenoned and pinned into the end frames' stiles, making them more or less like breadboard ends- or "clamps" I believe you Anglishers call 'em. I'd glue and pin the topmost tenon, and let the other tenons float in their mortises, with their pins in slotted holes. Let the bevelled bottom edge of this breadboard/ panel float in a groove, normal fashion, in the bottom rail.
Looks like the case bottom might be composed of three panels, floating in grooves worked in the edges of the intermediate rails whose tenon ends you see protruding thru the front lower rail. A less elegant bottom might be lying on top of these rails and resting on a ledger strip (applied) or rabbet (rebate) worked on the ends' lower rails.
The lid would be pretty nifty if hung on self-tenons or pintles- worked round- on the ends of the rear lid rail. These pintles could be engaged in holes drilled into the edges of the top rails of the ends, or into longish, shaped blocks applied vertically to the back, echoing the lifts on the ends. Alternatively, I could see some nice ornamental wrought iron (or copper?) strap hinges nailed or rivetted in place.
Ray
Ray,
Those are useful thoughts; but you neglected to include the 3D CAD file in 64-bit colour. :-)
I am going to avoid metal parts as far as possible (I might employ a hidden brass screw or two) as the design appears to include an "everything's carved wooden parts" ethos. I think you may have the design paradigm right with that breadboard-ends idea; the BBs are merely 3D proud-dovetailed versions perhaps.
Lataxe.
My dear friend,
I've been called a lot of different things, but a 3D CAD is a new one on me. :-(
On the 'puter screen, I reckon I'm more of a 2D ne'er-do-well. ;-)
Cheers,
Ray
When I googled "barnsley blanket chest", one hit came up - http://heritage.ukvillages.co.uk/ukvillages.nsf/b08?open&s=genealogy&internal=genealogy&v=Frampton%20Mansell-Gloucestershire&logid=&text=refreshcache
"I am looking for information about an 1890s Barnsley Blanket Chest that is supposed to be located in a Rodmarton Manor. I saw a picture of the chest in an Arts and Crafts book and would like to find out about its dimensions and other construction details. Thanks."
Not clear whether it's the same chest or not.
I looked at that site and did not see the chest. was there a pic?
Shoe,
Bob has discovered that the chest may be at Rodmarton Manor:
http://www.rodmarton-manor.co.uk/index.html
but their website doesn't mention or picture it. Perhaps I will have to make a little trip therw, post-Christmas, taking my spy-camera and/or a curator-bribe. :-)
Lataxe
With your gift for talk, I am sure you will be able get access to the chest for many pictures, drawings and measurements. Just make sure you post the fruits of your trip here on what will be the new and improved knots. Knotheads awaight.DanC
Most of the construction looks to be fairly straightforward. Does this seem reasonable for the top?
View Image
Dave,
I think that curved-frame top panel is likely correct, with the lid a thinner-member frame & panel arrangement echoing the curve and sat on top of the 'ole. Ray seems to have surmised the rest of the construction - basically a collection of some strange-shaped and rather agricultural frame parts with the appropriate panels.
Ray's suggestion about the lid pivot/hinge sounds appropriate also: two round tenon/pins on the ends of the rear lid-frame, mortised into round holes located somewhere in the back. I like the idea of a couple of "corbels" sticking out of the rear for these round hinge mortises to go in.
The through M&Ts on the bottom front rail, that seem to indicate the position of the internal floor of the chest, seem rather high off the ground, reducing the internal space of the chest. I'd be tempted to use the same floor installation method (I like those through M&Ts) but situate them rather lower in the chest's bottom rails. Alternatively, a deep space under the floor might allow the installation of a drawer into the front-bottom rail, which would itself then be a frame without a panel rather than a solid plank....? Or even a secret compartment of some kind.
There is also the mystery of the inside.............
Attaching the carved side handles to the floating panel would presumably need some reinforcement on the inside of the panel. Also, the panel will need to be strongly lodged in the frame but still able to float.
Many chests have a till inside. I'm wondering how that would fit within such a frame & panel construction.
Lataxe
Edited 12/9/2009 11:37 am ET by Lataxe
DO you think the lid is hinged at the back?I was thinking about the handles. Could they somehow be attached to the vertical members of the front and back frames in addition to the panels?
Dave,
I think you have the joint construction reversed. Looks to me like the front rail has the mortises, and extends past the end rails to form horn-shaped handles at either side.
Ray
If you're right, that would mean those are pretty feeble dovetails where the stiles come up through the top. The grain would be running across the width of the tails and they'd have little strength. Do you really think an experienced woodworker would create a joint like that? To me it looks like the dovetail pins extend up through the arched part of the top.
Edited 12/9/2009 1:14 pm ET by DaveRichards
Dave,
I see the lid as a separate frame and panel that laps over the top of the dovetailed end rails, which form the top rails of the case ends' frame and panel components.
Ray
Edit: Be pretty hard to lift a lid that was dovetailed to the chest's front stiles wouldn't it?;-)
Edited 12/9/2009 7:46 pm ET by joinerswork
I see, Ray. My drawing was intended to suggest a way to assemble the top, not the hinged? lid.
Dave,
Oh, I gotcha, now.
Ray
Dave & Ray,
Thank you for those further thoughts, chaps. I too see the lid as a seperate frame & panel thang which echoes the curve of the chest-top. I imagine that the two curved pieces of the top-ends could be quite thick, with Dave's joining top- rails (or are they stiles) being made thinner. This would create a shallow recess into which the F&P lid could then (at least partially) sit.
The lid does sem to stick up a little from the chest-top; and the front frame members look as though they might be extended a bit outside the frame-corners to provide some kind of handle......?
*****
What do you think about the idea of raising the internal floor a bit so there's room for a drawer in the bottom of the chest, underneath it's floor? Would it be getting too fussy?
Also, what style of till and till-attachment might work inside all this frame & panel architecture? I have built a few plain-sided chests with DT'd corners and having a till, which is easily mounted into grooves (dadoes do you call them in the States) cut inside the chest walls. How do tills go inside F&P chests, though, pray tell?
Lataxe, slurping up construction wisdom.
I'm glad this is giving you some ideas. This is certainly an interesting piece to replicate.I think a drawer might look a bit strange and I would be inclined to pass on that. As to the till, would you have a single one that is perhaps 1/3 the length of the chest?Do you have any guess as to the overall dimensions of this thing?
Lataxe,
Adding a drawer would necessitate adding to the height- a drawer right on the floor would look peculier, in addition to being awkward to open and close. (Incidentally, the first thing I thought when I saw how high the bottom of that chest is, "Must have been designed for a damp stone floor."
I'd recommend adding a largish tray in to the upper regions of the chest's interior. This would answer both the purpose of a drawer, and a till. Said tray ought to be supported on a pair of rails, applied to the inside of the chest's front and back, running full length. The tray may then be slid back and forth, or to and fro, even hither and yon, to access the contents below. Like the common old carpenter's tool chest.
Such a tray would not alter the rustic appearance or happy proportions of the chest, the greater part of its charm, (to my eyes at least) in the way that a drawer will.
Been thinking about the attachment of those lifts on the end panels. In addition to making the panels thicker than normal- 3/4- 7/8" (bevelling the inside edges), I believe it would add to the strength of the construction to inlet the lifts 1/4" or so into the panel. The bottom edge of the lift, if worked like a sliding dovetail, could be tipped into the correspondingly angled recess, if the top edge of the lift is left square, or very slightly bevelled. Once in place and glued, the lift can be re-inforced with screws driven thru the panel from the inside. This is the same type join that is used to fix the tote of a wooden bench plane in place-- the rear of the tote is dovetailed, and the front drops into the recess. Pressure on the joint- in the "right" direction- wedges it more tightly in place.
Ray
Design-cohorts,
Your opinions agin a drawer are persuasive. Out with the drawer-idea!
I don't know the dimensions of the Barnsley chest but I will be resizing mine to fit the intended location and purpose, which is to act as an alcove-living holder of CDs, sheet music and other musical stuff. The alcove lies under some book and stero-bearing shelves beside the fireplace in the study, so the chest will also serve to hide the nest of wires that is inevitably associated with stero equipment.
But the proportions of the Barnsley chest are good as-is so it probably would be a mistake to add drawers, radically change the panel-to-frame proportions and so forth. I am, however, tempted to make that blank front panel slightly more interesting by giving it a Gimson/Barnsley fielded panel profile, like this on the drawers of that hayrake table I made:
View Image
View Image
Wot U fink then?
A closer look at the actual printed page of the Rodel/Binzen book more clearly reveals that the front panel is not just floating in the frame grooves but also pinned to the uprights. (Is this what your earlier breadboard end comment meant Ray)? I suspect also that there is not a top-frame delineating the opening but that the apparent stile of the Dave-CAD suggestion (in an earlier post) is in fact a lip on the lid-frame.
The front and back panels, then, may have their top edges left free, with the lid sitting in the 'ole and directly atop the panels' top edges. Perhaps this is why the panel is pinned - and possibly glued - into the top of the frame uprights, to strengthen the construction in lieau of that "missing" top frame-member?
I like the sliding internal tray suggestion. Perhaps there could be two, each of which would tuck-in to the top-ends of the chest, under those proud DT sections.
Lataxe
Lataxe,
Were I in your place, I'd go easy on adding much in the way of frou-frou. 'Tis a rustic piece, and adding something as severely hoomanly imposed and rectilinear as a bead molding or such on the panel would be a clash with that "hand-hewn" look of the deliberate "accidentally" knackered corners of the case. Any decoration ought to be as deliberately unregulated, ie, hand carved (with a broad-axe, or at least a dull kitchen spoon), and none too carefully at that. But that's just how I see it.
Yep, that is just what I meant by my breadboard comment. It's pretty apparent that the "panel" is really structural, those pins give away the presence of tenons behind. I figured that "top rail" was just a filler strip, tacked to the top of the panel, but it could as easily be as Dave suggested (overbuilt, but not out of keeping with the barn-beam character of the piece), or as you say, tacked onto the lower side of the lid. I like Dave's plan best, I think. Strong, like bull!
Ray
Lataxe:
Is this the chest you were looking for?
http://www.owlpen.com/gimson.shtml
Scroll down a piece until you see the pic.
Gimson/Barnsley did use Holly and Sycamore inlays on some pieces.
Jack
Lataxe,
What progress on finding more info on the chest? It's intriguing. I'd like to see more detail on it's joinery. Perhaps you could cycle off to one of those great halls full of such and armed with your trusty digital return vast imagery for all to peruse?
I'm not holding too much faith in FWW for any new illuminations -- at least in the near future. The resources here in the U.S. are woefully pathetic. I do believe there are several pieces at Winterthur and at the Hagley (but not in their books) but for me that's on the other side of the country. Not cycling distance.
Please keep us, us being those who are interested in more than Stickley, or Messieurs Greene and Greene (Hall and Hall) informed.
Thanks
Boil
BB,
The chest resides a little beyond normal cycling distances; but I hope to go trippin' there somehow or other in the new year. The rascals that run these Big Hoosey spots are not keen on photography (I don't really understand what they think will be stolen - their souls?) so I'll have to wheedle and flatter.
Meanwhile I feel a drawing coming on - old-fashioned graph paper stuff I'm afraid as I'm a dunce at the CAD.
Lataxe
Some MI-5 "cuff link" cameras?
First, make contact with the curators in advance. It may well be possible to meet directly with a curator to examine the piece, have it opened, and perhaps even get your photos. (I've done this with the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the Boston Museum of Fine Arts, and even Colonial Williamsburg.) Curators generally much prefer to know that you have no commercial purposes in examining the items. Have your white cotton gloves and you might even be able to touch! If photos are still out, have prepared basic outline sketches of how you think it might be, that you can sketch in the details.
Hi,
I have been following this thread for a bit. Attached is the only picture from the Rodmartin Brocure.
Uploaded with plasq's Skitch!
I visited in 2006. The text states, "The large oak chest with the protruding dovetails, rounded top and chamfered edges was an early work of Sidney Barnsley baought by Margaret Biddulph in 1929."
The house is still a private residence and is only open for tours on specific days. I was allowed to look in a few drawers and I did some sketches but not of this dresser. Several pieces at the Cheltenham Museum have similar construction. I returned in 2009 to see more.
Unfortunately there is very little info on how to build these but you can get a look at some of the drawings at that museum which is an hour or so out of London.
Gizmo,
Thank you for that helpful picksher; they are few and far between of most Gimson & Barnsley work.
Even today, I are been in the shed cutting two Great Lumps of 3" thick oak into short planks, including a couple of curved lumps for the top-end bits. The lumps and planks have been cut at various angles to ensure each emergent plank shows the medullary rays on the faces - a long business with bandsaw, plane, spokeshave and drawknife.
I have hacked out a couple of curved pieces - curved on one side only with the other temporarily left flat as a reference for cutting the tails out so their "floors" will be at right angles to the upright pieces that will have the pins at their tops. Once the tails are cut out, I'll curve the other side of the top pieces to make a couple of short but nicely bowed planks, tailed at both ends.
Then there will be a couple of bottom pieces to match, attached to the uprights via through M&Ts. All four bits, of both ends, will then be grooved for the end panels. The two pairs of upright pieces will also be grooved in their inner edges to hold the front and back panels. I need to work out where to fix all these panels and where to leave them floating.....
Wot fun!
Lataxe, hewing away at oak.
Lataxe, I was looking at your post and Googled Gimson/Barnsley Oak Chest. First listing on the page oak chest 265.1963 with photos not sure if this is what you want. GaryOwen
Lataxe..
I have no idea but is this the chest? It is beautiful!
http://gimson.leicester.gov.uk/vm/egc/of/oc265/
Sure looks like frame and pannel to me?
With detail carving....
Will and Lataxe,
That's a
Will and Lataxe,
That's a great chest! An you just have to fall in love with those extruded DTs in Gizmo's shot.
BB
Gary & Will,
Thanks both for that link, which doesn't contain the chest that is my main inspiration but is full of very useful closeup pics of many Gimson construction and decorative details. There is a pic up-the-thread-a-bit of the chest I'm semi-copying. The one you both found does share some details - the frame & panel construction of the lid is similar, for instance.
I think it's the lid that will be the greatest challenge as it is not just frame & panel but also curved. Smashin'! One likes a challenge, including opportunities to swear and cuss, get a red gill and generally swing through a wide spectrum of emotions.
Today I'm rooting through the horde for oak planks suitable for the panels and perhaps also the frame of the lid.
I suppose I should post a pic or two in due course.
Lataxe
Smashin'! One likes a
Smashin'! One likes a challenge, including opportunities to swear and cuss, get a red gill and generally swing through a wide spectrum of emotions.
Then try bending your wood without steam?
The chest is Far from something I have ever made, but I am sure bent laminations would work for a curved top. For little wood movement I would suggest a Resorcinol based glue. Yes.. Even that Gorilla glue should work. And then there is Construction Adhesive.
swear and cuss.. Make it in six days?
I never could find the picture of the chest you liked!
Anyway, I'm sure if anyone, you can pull it off. More work for your $800.00 Festool's Domino. Will that Domino do square through tenons?
Not something you want to hear, but Premium Construction type adhesives work very well! Yes, even Gorilla glue... I do realize many folks make fun of it but it WORKS!
I will look again in six days for your post of the chest...
I love the chest..
I was thinking of dovetails at the bottom half and box joints at the top.. And add a small drawer at the bottom with a key lock.
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