Replies

1. 
   BG | Jun 15, 2003 01:36pm | #1

   John,

   This is not advise but rather a suggestion as to a possible solution....this evolved from one of my bad experiences.

   My wife wanted the birch cabinet dark and because I was using birch ply and solid birch top and trim I decided to put the dye in the shellac and, that way, to get an even application.  Well, the dye never went into the wood (the shellac blocks that) and with each brush stroke more streaking.....perhaps it would have worked well if sprayed...but i was brushing.

   Anyhow, after about 6 coats I began to rub out....low and behold what evolved was exactly what i wanted with some subtle streaking that looks like nice wood grain...and a hand rubbed finish.

   For you, I'm thinking, maybe there is a way to 'float' a darker stain or dye over the gel stain?  I don't know what would work with gel stain...perhaps shellac?  Good Luck 

2. 
   Kevin | Jun 15, 2003 08:00pm | #2

   Is it possible to use dyes over the gel or is there some other approach I could take?

   Yes, it certainly is possible. Dyes make excellent toners. But... I always spray them on. I don't know that I'd try to hand-apply them unless the dye were heavily diluted. And I am very partial to alcohol-based dyes.

   I always, always, always work out my stain system on scrap wood before tackling the actual project. That way I've got a workable system and don't get stuck mid-project.

   Without being able to see your colors or knowing what color you are trying to achieve it is hard to give intelligent feedback. But... it sounds like you might have been better off using a dye to tint the wood before applying the gel stain. Be that as it may... my suggestion would be to take a couple pieces of scrap wood, replicate on them what you have on the actual piece right now... and then work out your "fix" on the scrap pieces. You might try blending two or more different colors of gel stain... Or maybe a dye-tinted shellac... Or even wiping some dilute dye over the gel stain just to see what happens. The only thing you could mess up with be a piece of scrap.

   Regards,

   Kevin

1. 
   forestgirl | Jun 15, 2003 08:53pm | #3

   "I always, always, always work out my stain system on scrap wood before tackling the actual project. "  Yep, yep, yep, yep!  forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

2. 
   gabaghoul | Jun 16, 2003 05:34am | #5

   BTW, I did try it on scrap and I even went as far as buiding my piece in 3D(in a program called Maya which I use at work) and texturing it with scans of the scraps.  I think my problem came from different sanding grit levels the scrap I only sanded to 120 and the actual piece was sanded to 220.  I am assuming that the finely sanded piece just did not soak up as much stain as the scrap.

   I apprectiate the help

   John

1. 
   Kevin | Jun 16, 2003 08:31am | #6

   I think my problem came from different sanding grit levels the scrap I only sanded to 120 and the actual piece was sanded to 220.  I am assuming that the finely sanded piece just did not soak up as much stain as the scrap.

   Bingo. I think you just identified what went wrong.

   When you work out a fix, come back and post an update. I'd be interesting in hearing how you end up getting it to the color that you want.

   Regards,

   Kevin

1. 
   Lazarus | Jun 16, 2003 05:29pm | #7

   Since I have never used a gel stain, this would be considered a question relating to this thread.

   Since it seems that the reason the gel isn't penetrating the wood is both because of the final sanding, and the fact that get stains do not penetrate deeply into the wood, is there a way to "water-down" gel stains? Not speaking from experience, but rather intuition, would there be a way to make the grain "pop" by adding water or something to the piece. I understand this would create the need for sanding again, but it should also open up the pores in the wood to accept a color treatment more readily.

   Once again, this question is more for my own knowledge than an actual solution. You guys are the pros, and I am very interested in your opinions.LazarusRemeber, "Wisdom is the toughest of teachers! She gives the test first and the lesson after."

1. 
   Kevin | Jun 16, 2003 08:32pm | #9

   Since it seems that the reason the gel isn't penetrating the wood is both because of the final sanding, and the fact that get stains do not penetrate deeply into the wood, is there a way to "water-down" gel stains?

   Sure. You can "water down" anything by looking at the list of ingredients and using whatever the primary solvent is to thin the material. Whether that would help in this case or not... I don't know. I've never used gel stain either.

   Not speaking from experience, but rather intuition, would there be a way to make the grain "pop" by adding water or something to the piece. I understand this would create the need for sanding again, but it should also open up the pores in the wood to accept a color treatment more readily.

   Well... not knowing to what extent, if any, the gel stain has sealed the wood... that may or may not be an option for him. It certainly would have been an option prior to beginning the finishing process. It certainly would open up the wood pores. That's one of the reasons for working out the finish system on scrap before tackling the actual project, though. Using water to open the wood pores may not be a necessary step. The only way to find out is to play around with scrap until one is happy with the results, document what you did (for future reference) and then replicate what you did when you finish the actual project.

   Personally, I always document everything that I did to achieve the final result... from what grit of sandpaper to how many coats and how heavy each coat was of whatever. And if there is anything custom, such as a hand-matched toner or prestain, I document that too... brand(s), formula, everything. That way a year down the road I can replicate exactly what I did and achieve the same result... in theory of course. So much hinges on the technique one uses when staining (especially on multi-color step finishes) that results can vary slightly based on just that. But... that's another argument for working out the finish system on scrap, even a year later when you're matching a previous job.

   At any rate... with this particular finish he should get some scrap wood and replicate exactly what he has on the actual project right now. Then he can try various things, such as using water to open the pore, to see just what is gonna work and what isn't.

   Regards,

   Kevin

3. 
   k9s | Jun 16, 2003 01:32am | #4

   Just had the same problem. Red oak--gel stain--not going dark enough. After 5 coats still not geting dark enough. Applied a barrier coat of dewaxed shellac then glaze coats using the gel stain again but brushing on and gently removing with dry brush to leave a heavier coat which allowed me to shade, add texture, etc. to get a consistent finish. Another barrier coat then gel again. The two glaze coats yielded much more color than the original 5 coats.

4. 
   forestgirl | Jun 16, 2003 07:17pm | #8

   I had the opposite experience with regard to sanding grit affecting darkness of stain.  Recently finished a piece made from red alder, using Minwax walnut gel stain.   Stain boards were sanded to 220 and 320, with the 320 producing a darker color.  I did notice, however, that the contrast between the two grits was not as striking in a repeat trial.  Here's a link to the stain samples:
   http://home.mindspring.com/~jrae4/AlderStains2.htm  

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)