Need to experiment some to gain more comfort with hot hide glue hammer veneering and would like to focus.
Mixing water and ground hide glue by weight. 2 (water) : 1 (hide glue) seems to gel within seconds of the brush hitting the substrate. As a beginner I need some repeatability until I gain experience, and would like to compare two or three ratios. Can anyone suggest a good middle ratio for experimenting?
When vacuum pressing, the general rule is to apply a thick enough layer of ureaformaldehyde glue so that a finger dragged through it leaves small ridge on each side. Would this be a good practice for hammer veneering hot hide glue as well?
My plan is to hammer veneer some scrap pieces of veneer onto plywood panels and then try to pry them off the next day, cut through with a table saw, . . .
Thanks from a beginner.
Replies
Don,
Treat yourself to a visit to Rob Millard's web page.
Great place, great guy (at least craftsman...), great work.
Best wishes,
Metod
Edit:
This:http://americanfederalperiod.com/woodshop.html
Edited 6/16/2008 10:00 am ET by Metod
Rob Millard is a great source of info and he posts here so that's a big plus. As to your specific question.... I'm still low on the learning curve regarding hammer veneering, so take this for what it's worth. I don't think there is any absolute best answer. You should mix some glue at different water/glue ratios and see how it performs. Note how the glue drips or runs from the brush. Try applying it in differing amounts. (Unlike vac press glue, the hammer will squeeze out any excess. This can be recovered and put back into the pot.) Your shop temperature will have an affect as will your own working pace.
I just did some rather finicky curved edge work and needed a thinner glue than I normally use. This gave me a bit more time. Still, I made liberal use of my iron to reheat the veneer and glue. I also pre-size the substrate as Rob suggests. This seems to make things tack up a bit quicker.
Don,
Get "Veneering, A Foundation Course," by Mike Burton, Sterling Publishing Co., NY.
It's very visually oriented with excellent description of every little step and process. Only a video with lots of commentary would be better.
You'll be up the learning curve very quickly.
Rich
Don,
You're cooking the glue and the water is evaporating, right? Add too much water and you can just wait until it cooks off. So forget the ratios and recipes. They won't help you. You need to know what the glue must look like when ready. It should flow from the brush in a single thin strand. In general, watery is better than gloppy.
Read Rob's site then just get to work. You'll figure it out. Have a iron handy and a veneer hammer. I liked lubricating the top surface of the veneer with glue. I don't think Rob does that. I also just grabbed dry veneer and stuck it down. You need to try that before you get involved with sizing. I think sizing is something one must do when working with precision shapes. If you just want to cover a small surface with veneer I think you can just paint the substrate and both sides of the veneer and hammer it down.
My limited experience is that when you hammer veneer, everything that can go wrong, does go wrong. So you get a lot of experience on your first job!
Adam
I usually just put enough water in until the glue runs of the brush in a continuous stream. More watery than for normal gluing. I use a paint brush to apply the glue. I go heavy on the glue side and a light coat on the face side. work the hammer from the center out.
Just give it a whirl, don't bother analyzing to much. You'll see it real easy, and will be glad you didn't waste money on a vacum bag.
"will be glad you didn't waste money on a vacum bag."I so dislike unqualified statements such as this one you made. I've got three vac bags, all for different purposes. None of the money I spent on these has been wasted. Vacuum pressing is an excellent process for many applications. It doesn't solve all of them, but neither does hammer veneering. As I've stated previously, I use both processes in my daily work. Both are worth learning.
I don't mean to be rude or any disrespect, but I have to stand by my statement.
I'm sure there are good ocasions for a bag I've just never seen any. I have used them, and I can see how people are fooled into believing they easier and/or faster.
As for veneering they are a complete waste of money. They may be useful for some clamping of a wierd shape or something like that. But for veneering they are more of a hinderance. People use them because they would rather invest a few hundred dollars in a vacum set up because they were told other glues are better than hide. And they are afraid to try hide, because you use a brush to apply it instead of squirting it out of a bottle. All of the glues (I'm familer with) are stronger than wood so that's a moot point. The advantages of hide are far superior than all the others, one of them being you can hammer glue with it (I could go on but I believe the merits of hide glue have been well covered in other threads).
in far less time than it takes to make forms etc. for a vacum press (or even pull it out and set it up for that matter) you can be done hammering. There are limitations on the angles, arcs, etc you can veneer in a bag. But you can hammer a 1" dowel (don't know why you'd want to, but you can).
So when I say a vacum bag is a waste of money it is a fact, not a blatant statment.
I know people love there bags, but it is just another tool, and I have my own selection of wastes of money (that I love)!
I can disagree with some of your statements on more than one front, but I'll just pick a few selected counterpoints.
People use vac-bags to make money at veneering. For instance I use a vac-bag to veneer and bend forms all in one operation, and I'll use this system to create several veneered bent forms in a day-- anywhere between two and twenty a day, depending on the form and additional heat available. Bending first and veneering second as two separate operations, especially trying to hammer veneer with hide glue just can't compete for speed and savings to the customer.
Hammer veneering isn't always appropriate as there are other ways to do the job faster, including the use of guillotines, cold and/or heated vac-bags and heated hydraulic presses. I veneer using each of these methods, as well as using things like heated and cold cauls, clamps, and even things like sandbags.
Hide glue isn't always the right choice for veneering. Sometimes epoxy resin or urea formaldehide glues, for instance, are more appropriate, and these glues aren't right for hammer veneering.
To state that vac-bags for veneering are a complete waste of money is, in my experience, and the experience of all the other professional furniture makers I know and mix with, a very lonely position to take. Everyone else I know in the business finds that there is a time and place for every veneering method. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
I have no dog in this fight. So just out of curiosity, what does one do when white glued or epoxied veneer pops off its substrate?I know my brother does big commercial jobs and he uses 3M Super 77 spray adhesive. But again, I don't think that's easy to repair.Seems to me that in the traditional uses of veneer, for decorative work in particular say, hammer veneering looks mighty attractive. For contemporary work- where guys are basically covering a 4x8 sheet of mdf for the Godiva Chocolates store at the mall, then I can see why one wouldn't want to hammer that.Adam
Thanks for all the replies.
I purchased Rob Millard's Federal candlestand video for its hammer veneering section. The 1st half that I've seen (some several times) is very good on all parts of the construction, including hammer veneering. I've read some of his web site materials on hammer veneering as well. I apologize for not being able to know forever, from watching on his video how the hot hide glue runs off the brush, how thick my glue should be. But I don't. I was expecting that freshly made hot hide glue would have a consistent viscosity before some of the water starts evaporating, and that could be a frame of reference I could study and learn to recognize. Hence my questions.
It was very surprising to see a suggestion that hammer veneering with hot hide glue would be the best solution for all veneering needs and situations. I found it VERY difficult to work around veneer tape when hammer veneering a two piece veneer panel, and even more difficult to double cut and make a tight seam with quartersawn white oak veneer. I also found it very time consuming and challenging to hammer veneer a panel 36" x 20". I can't imagine trying to hammer veneer a large bed frame panel, large elliptical dining table panel, ... I can't see trying to hammer veneer an intricate pre-assembled marquetry panel held together with veneer tape. But I also think hammer veneering would be much more efficient than vacuum veneering smaller panels, so I want to add this procedure to my skills for woodworking.
"what does one do when white glued or epoxied veneer pops off its substrate?"
Adam, it can be a right royal pain in the paints. It sometimes means redoing the job completely as there aren't generally any easy repairs for this problem.
You're right about the use of heated presses, vac-bags, et al being very well suited to large commercial jobs, but they also have uses in smaller one-off work.
There is a balance that's required between speed, cost, final end use and appearance. I can veneer both sides of a panel that's something like a decent dining table top size in a morning using tame, ie, nicely flat, veneers. This means cutting the panel to size, matching the veneers, guillotining them, taping or stitching them, mixing up the urea formaldehide glue, spreading it with a hopper roller, and two to three minutes in the heated hydraulic press. Another half a day is enough to machine, mitre and attach the foredges, clean them up, along with rest of the veneered panel on both sides using stroke sanders and the like.
It's quick and efficient. There's certainly need for investment in equipment, but that's a commercial decision made by the business. Like everything else there is a balance. It just annoyed me to see vac-bags dismissed as pretty much useless for veneering.
I'm darned good at hand veneering, and truly enjoy the process, but there are certain jobs where this method isn't commercially viable. To simply dismiss a perfectly valid working method displays, I believe, a thorough lack of insight into the wide and varied world of furniture making, including the commercial or business end of the game.
I mean that, for example, I don't work as you do Adam, using all old techniques and hand work as it's not a model of woodworking that fits my particular money driven furniture making ethos, but I appreciate why you do what you do and find it interesting to hear what you're getting up to. I am always open to hearing about different methods and techniques, even if I haven't got the time or inclination to use them myself. Slainte. Richard Jones Furniture
Richard I think your post sums up my opinion exactly. I guess a comercial mill with a few 100k in equiptment making the same panel over and over can go pretty fast with full size panels. But for 1 or two offs it just doesn't make sense.
I've never hammered a piece as large as 4x8 the biggest i've ever done was 2'x6'. with two pieces of veneer. Took about 30min from when the 1st piece of glue was painted on until done and ready for use.
After you've got you veneers layed out. You start hammering. No time wasted triming edges, attaching with tape, hoping for a tight seem etc. etc.
You lay your first piece, hammer it home, lay your second slightly overlaping the first, hammer it, Trim overlap with straight edge, remove waste and hammer down seam, repeat. You make a mistake and you can fix it with a little water, glue and a heat gun.
If only my first experience went as well as yours . . .
Double cutting quartered white oak seams, the bottom waste piece kept breaking every couple inches rather than coming up as one strip. When I finally got it out, I laid the two edges back down, barely misted with water and warmed with the iron. Went down the seam 5 or six times with the hammer, then the seam started lifting because the veneer was expanding in width. Trimmed the seam and repeated. This time the seam lifted even more due to veneer expansion. Finally had to trash the panel and start all over. The 2nd time I pre-cut perfect matching seams, hammered down the first piece, then the 2nd with a perfect joint. After a few minutes the seam started lifting again due to veneer expansion. Re-warmed and hammered for about five continuous minutes and the lifting was minimal, but still more than optimal.
In this particular instance, vacuum veneering would have been faster, cheaper, and MUCH less stressful.
From experience I know that hot hide glue thickens in the glue pot as the water evaporates. But I don't expect it to change dramatically over the first fiften minutes a fresh "brew" is on the heat.
My first attempt was with a 2:1 ratio by weight, water to granules of 192 gram strength. With a shortened 1" brush, I was barely able to unload the brush before the glue started to gel on the substrate - there was no opportunity to even out the glue layer and it was very thick. Hammering squeezed out so much glue that it was all over the sides of the substrate, the table top, the floor, the 17 year cicadas (I'm in Cincinnati) . . .
Thinned the glue with water and tried another sample. Must have been too thin because after warming the veneer and glue with an iron so the veneer would move slightly, couldn't get any squeezeout whatsoever. The next day I was able to work a thin putty knife under some of the edges.
Eventually I brushed on a layer of glue, brushed on some more, and hope the veneer stays.
Experience is very important, but I don't understand how one can hope to encourage people to try hammer veneering without providing some starting guidelines. Whether it's a 1.5:1 ratio by weight, 1.25:1, 1:1, or something else, it's hard to imagine that a given starting point ratio using 192 gram strength granules, soaked overnight and heated for ten minutes, is going to vary that much in viscosity from one locale to another.
Still looking for some basic guidelines, and a copy of the book suggested above.
More basic guidelines from a complete hammer glue novice...... but I've given it a lot of thought. (does that count for anything?)1. I mix the glue by putting a couple of tablespoons into a shallow jar and I "just" cover it with cold (not hot) water. I let it sit an hour or so. Now it's gooey, room temperature. I put it into the hot water bath.2. After it heats up I check it's consistency. Usually it "seems" too thick so I add some water. If I add too much, then this batch gets to be primer/sizing glue.... or I let it evaporate some. I try to add a little at a time, stir, spread on some scrap, oosh it around a bit. OK, that's good. I keep a cover on my hot water pot. I use an old crock pot set on medium. That's exactly 140ºF. Without the cover I've noticed a skin forming on the glue in very short order..... 10 to 15 minutes. Left very long w/o the cover and the glue definitely will need more water to thin it. 3. I take a deep breath and brush some of the glue onto my substrate. Invariably, it's too thick (I'm a novice glue guy, remember.) I keep on going, can't stop now. I slap on the veneer and hammer, iron, hammer, swear, hammer, slap mosquitos... etc. The veneer gets into place. I've found that it really doesn't take too much to get it to stick, but I've only used really well behaved veneer. I have ironed onto some odd substrates, though. (Despite being a novice glue guy, I'm adventurous. And a bit fool-hardy.) Often these surfaces are things I simply cannot get into my vac. veneer press. 4. Since the glue was too thick, I add some water and let it reheat. The second time things seem to go a lot better. Sometimes they go just right. Everyone gets lucky sometimes. Just a half hour ago, I fixed some loose veneer on an edge. Mooshed in a bit of glue with a thin knife, ironed a bit, hammered, pushed with my fingers (boy they get sticky!) ....... Now it's down for good. (knock on wood)5. I'm learning that hammer veneering is a learned technique. I mean, one must experience it firsthand to get it down, so to speak. Veneers, room temperature, glue brand, etc. will affect the process. There's really no way of telling exactly what to do. Likened to sawing to a line for dovetail work... one can read about it, watch others all day, or sharpen the saw till the teeth hurt, but sooner or later you just have to start sawing. After lots of trials you finally can keep to the line... then, you "get it." Same with hot hide glue I figure. I'm still approaching the ah-haa moment. Keep you ear toward the north, some day you'll hear me shout.
Tim,I find hammer veneering a bit like turning. You can finish a job in 20 minutes, or you can work at it all day long. Some woodworking jobs are like that. Perfect for hobbyist and pro alike!Adam
Well,at least now you have qualified your statement. I don't agree with you, but that doesn't diminish your opinion. But I think you are not seeing the bigger picture. Consider large work.... I'll bet I can veneer both sides of a 5'x10' panel considerably faster using my vac press than you can hammer it down. For that matter, I can lay up sheets of stock to make a plywood/mdf/metal/anything-that-glue-will-stick-to panel with my vac press, either flat or curved, and you can't with your hammer...... so there.
I agree with your position, hammer veneering is a wonderful technique and anyone who does any veneering should undertake learning how to do it well, I too however use vacuum press and bags at times as well. I like that technique too it is simply a process of understanding when and where each process is best.
Fortunately there is no right or wrong way to approach the veneering process, each of us is free to utilize what ever means we see fit to get the job done! To make the statement as the reader did that vac bags are a waste of money is simply silly. Akin I think to saying the ownership of a table saw is a waste of money when anything can certainly be cut with hand saws.
But then if none of us had opinions what the heck would we all discuss on this forum?
Madison
Sapwood,
What type of vaccum do you have?
I have a venturi unit from Vacuum Pressing Systems. The venturi is less expensive than the electric pump. Since I bought it, I've found I'd rather have purchased the electric model. Occasionally I do curved stair work on site. It's a pain to have to coordinate an air compressor there. By the way, doing curved stair rails and stringers would be impossible with the hammer veneer process whereas with a vac bag, there are just a few things to overcome to achieve beautiful results.
Do you think this will be ok http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=5086? I am not sure what to look for when purchasing a pump so any suggestions would be helpful.
In fairness, your inquiry really belongs in another discussion thread, so any further questions ought to be posted there. I suggest you also do a search hereabouts.... there are many prior discussions dealing with vac bags, pumps, etc. Also try this forum: http://www.vacupress.com/forum/
also joewoodworker.comThe equipment you linked to seems like a very introductory setup. I'd suggest you do more research before spending money only to soon find it's limitations.
As a person who is fully dedicated to hammer veneering, I can see a use for vacuum presses, but I think sometimes they are not used to their best effect. I see many craftsmen using them, when hammer veneering would be better. It reminds me of the old saying, that you can go to Los Angles, from Chicago, by way of Washington D.C.; you get there, but man is it the long way around.
The example I often use, is the drawer front to a bow front chest, that features a field veneer surrounded by crossbanding. The curved shape and the many elements would make taping this pattern and pressing it, a much more difficult task than just slapping on some glue and hammering the veneer down. I once tried a flat panel like this using a veneer press ( screw press not vacuum), I know that I could have done it faster by hammer veneering, because you build the pattern in place, there is not all the taping and positioning it properly on the substrate. I also know that with more practice, I could have become better at the pressing method, but I saw enough to tell me that hammering was easier.
I can think of only few pieces I made that a vacuum press would have worked better; a large sideboard top, and a 4 way match in burl on a William and Mary Lowboy. Having said that I don't feel the least bit handicapped from the lack of a vacuum press.
I tend see all of woodworking through the narrow prism of period furniture, but that doesn't mean I stand around planing boards to thickness with a hand plane, or saw only with a handsaw, so the hammer veneering thing isn't some romantic endeavor. I use it because it is fast, adaptable, predictable and enjoyable.
As for the question that started this thread, With a sized substrate and a decent working temperature (not too hot in the shop), the ratio of glue to water isn't that important, and it is a moving target, as the water is constantly evaporating. I'm actually happy, when the glue gels quickly on the substrate, since the fast gelling is what makes hammer veneering possible. The typical problems with hammer veneering come from the substrate absorbing the glue to quickly ( the sizing takes care of this), the iron being too hot, or letting the face of the veneer dry out. Also, with some highly figured veneers, you get bubbles that just won't cooperate, but if you let them sit for a while, and try again, they go down very well.
Hammer veneering is indeed a poor choice for anything held together with veneer tape. Double cutting the seams works well with some species but not others (don't ever try with satinwood!). The expansion problem of seaming can be overcome by at first hammering only at the seam and letting the expansion take place elsewhere.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Don,
Here's something that was on the Home page here a few months ago.
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/subscription/ToolGuide/ToolGuideArticle.aspx?id=5238
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
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