Thought you might be interested in this Press Release. The emphasis below is mine:
Pentair Agrees to Sell its Tools Group to Black & Decker Corp. for $775 million
July 19, 2004 7:01 a.m.
GOLDEN VALLEY, Minn., July 19 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ — Pentair, Inc. (NYSE: PNR) announced today that it has concluded its exploration of strategic alternatives for its wholly owned Tools Group, and that it has signed a definitive agreement to sell the Group to The Black & Decker Corporation (NYSE: BDK) of Towson, Maryland, for approximately $775 million. The transaction is expected to close in 2004, following the completion of customary regulatory clearance.
“In the 1990s, Pentair was largely defined by its top-performing tools businesses but, today, the water and enclosures businesses are the driving forces in our growth and expansion,” said Randall J. Hogan, Pentair chairman and chief executive officer. “The premier brands comprising our Tools Group continue to represent great value and have performed well against their competitors. However, the opportunities we see in the expansion of our Water and Enclosures Groups made the sale of the Tools Group a logical step to build greater value for Pentair shareholders. The Tools Group is a strong business that performed well for Pentair, and we believe it will continue to grow and prosper under the ownership of Black & Decker.”
Black & Decker is a global manufacturer and marketer of quality power tools and accessories, hardware and home improvement products, and technology-based fastening systems.
Pentair’s Tools Group comprises the Porter-Cable, Delta, DeVilbiss Air Power, Oldham Saw, and FLEX brands, among others. The Group employs approximately 4,200 people at facilities in North America, Europe and Asia.
“Black & Decker is a recognized leader in the power tool industry and has proven its ability to grow and sustain strong brand names,” Hogan said. “We are very confident that we are placing our Tools Group in the hands of a team that can further build the tools businesses to benefit their customers, their suppliers, and their employees.”
Pentair noted that the proceeds from the sale of the Tools Group will be used to pay down debt associated with Pentair’s acquisition of WICOR Industries, which recently was approved by the Federal Trade Commission and is expected to be complete at the end of July.
“Going forward, with Pentair’s full resources focused on the growth and expansion of the Water and Enclosures Groups, we will become a much stronger, more nimble company, Hogan said. “We also expect to be much better positioned to achieve with greater consistency the growth goals our shareholders expect.”
[Balance deleted]
Replies
On balance, I think this is good news. If B&D can leverage its proven ability to innovate with a commitment to improve quality, especially in the Delta line, much better equipment could be the result.
Clearly, Pentair's tool lines have suffered while it courted buyers for the entire group.
I hope you're right and that B&D doesn't drive them into the ground the way they did with the B&D brand and turn the line into imported junk. I've got more PC than anything else. It's served me well. I think Pentair mishandled the tool business to some degree especially the Delta line and it's consolidation with PC- I don't think Delta has fully recovered from it. Could be wrong but I believe Pentair is in for a big surprise- water filtration a growth business? The tool business may be extremely competitive now but I think Pentair has leaped from the frying pan into the fire.
I've read through this thread, I'll offer the following:
I've got a DeWalt jig saw I can't kill. I've used other folks DeWalt drivers, they're great. My former brother-in-law gave me a B&D green 1/3 sheet sander (IIRC, he paid about ten bucks for it.). When the feeling in my hands returned, I purchased a PC 330. That was over a decade and a half ago. It's still running.
I've got an old Rockwell/Delta six inch jointer. Other than knives being a pita to change, I can't kill it.
You get what you pay for. If you don't pay much, you don't get much. B&D's green line was designed for the homeowner to sand a quarter sheet of plywood. They're a capitalist business, and good at it. They market what their customers want. So, get the idea across to them that you're willing to pay for quality. They'll make it.
Leon Jester, Roanoke, VA
It's good to see another Roanoker here.
I pop in from time to time. Been a while, though.
Leon
One never knows, but I suspect this will prove to be a "black " day for PC, Delta et al.
B&D took their own fine brand of tools, cheapened them, and basically drove them into the ground. And if you can believe what you hear around these forums, I think they have placed their Dewalt line on the same downhill slide.
It is hard to believe the Feds will approve this sale, but in this mad rush toward consolidation, I am sure they will.
I would guess all the European tool people are licking their chops and laying their plans today.
I think this is indeed bad news. Our company uses a significant amount of hand tools, and DeWalt tools has degraded its quality among it competitors to the point that they rate as expensive throw aways to us. Should the purchase have gone the other way, I might have had more confidence in the outcome. But this can't be anything but a sad day for those of us that not only use hand tools as a profession, but also in our home shops.
The one hope that DeWalt will use it as a reason to improve their tools is so unlikely, I won't even waste my time mentioning it.
Pete
Lafayette, LA
I think you are right to be pessimistic.
Look what B&D did to their original line of industrial level tools. They kept cutting back on costs, with a resulting loss in quality. After that line was moribund, they resurrected the old Dewalt name, and created a new line of quality tools. But, from everything I hear, the same process is now underway with Dewalt.
However, my own guess is that the Europeans can see what we see, and they are licking their chops over the potential opportunities. If B&D runs their lines downhill to save costs, you can bet others will be there to fill the void. At least I hope so...............
You are absolutely right. B&d has ruined everything they have touched. I have been in mass merchandising for a number of years and have seen the destruction of quality that B&D has brought about. Fist it was the GE brand of home appliances, then Dewalt, followed by Quick Set. After recently purchasing two Delta products and having to retun them because of sloppy construction, I will now abandon that brand.
I guess the big question is why D&D can't see what we see. I can only assume that even though costs are being cut, the resulting loss in quality is not costing them in sales.
Seems like a dumb philosophy in the competitive world of tools.
B&D could give a rip about tools. They are a large conglomerate and only interested in profits. Until the consuming public, and I don't mean wood workers, stops buying the junk they put out, they will continue to do so. If we, the wood working comunity, want to change the way they do business we must convince EVERYONE WE KNOW OR COME IN CONTACT WITH to not buy their products. With that being said, don't expect to see any changes for the better in our lifetimes, only those of us that pay attention to who is buying whom will know what is going on.
Here are some business highlights from the B&D website. It hardly looks like they are not responsive to their market place. Can't have results like this if you are not giving the customers what they want. B&D is a very savvy, long term successful company. How can you knock profits and leading sales as negative.
2003 Highlights
* Record Earnings Per Share
* Seven Consecutive Quarters of 19%+ Growth in Earnings Per Share
* Record Free Cash Flow; $800+ Million over Past Two Years*
* Three Consecutive Years of Working Capital Improvement
* Strategic Acquisition of Baldwin Hardware and Weiser Lock Businesses
* Net Debt to Capital Down From 55% to 42%; Lowest Net Debt in a Decade
* Repurchase of 2 Million Shares and 75% Increase in Dividend
* Free cash flow for 2003 of $480 million is calculated by the Corporation as cash flow from operating activities ($570.6 million), less capital expenditures (including capital expenditures of discontinued operations) ($105.8 million), plus proceeds from the disposal of assets (excluding proceeds from business sales) ($15.0 million). Free cash flow for 2002 of $360 million is calculated by the Corporation as cash flow from operating activities ($451.6 million), less capital expenditures (including capital expenditures of discontinued operations) ($96.6 million), plus proceeds from the disposal of assets (excluding proceeds from business sales) ($4.6 million)Howie.........
They have huge profits and leading sales because they are like Wal-Mart. They have the general public duped into believing that they are providing value at a bargain price. What they actually are doing is providing inferior products at an inflated price for the quality you receive!
They have the general public duped into believing that they are providing value at a bargain price. What they actually are doing is providing inferior products at an inflated price for the quality you receive!
I doubt a company can survive as as long as B&D if that was their business plan. If you truly believe that, buy their stock. BTW, I have not seen a lot of B&D stuff at a "bargain" price. Their DeWalt tools seem to be priced right in line with most other tools.Howie.........
"They are a large conglomerate and only interested in profits"
Of course they are interested in profits. Increasing shareholder wealth is the goal of every (for profit) corporation. I don't know of any company that buy's another to run it in the ground. Why would a corporation waste valuable investment capital on such a venture. B&D saw something they liked and felt it would either complement existing lines or add a new dimension to the company. Give them a chance, you might be surprised.
I've purchased their products, burned them up in an hour, bought a Makita, Bosch or Milwaukie and still have those! I make my coments from experience not just from what I read!
I've purchased their products, burned them up in an hour, bought a Makita, Bosch or Milwaukie and still have those! I make my coments from experience not just from what I read!
As I have had dewalt and makita and others that have all lasted a long time. The only point I'm making is just because a company changes hands does not mean the kiss of death.
Bones,
Most of the company acquisitions of the 90's was to run the purchased company into the ground and here is why. The CEO was being paid with stock...if he bought another company and convinced the stock market the 'synergy' of the acquisition would lead to great profits the stocks P/E ratio would rise in anticipation of the increased profits and he and the stock holders would make more money. The acquiring company never had the infratsructure to integrate the companies and deliver on the promise.
That is not B&D however, they have been acquiring and integrating for more than 30 years to my reckoning. Their business model was to be more 'customer responsive' and but much more money into market research and advertising. The home consumer did not want to buy a tool that was made to run 7/24. Likewise, on large construcion sites, tools broke and disappeared so quickly cases of cheapies made more economic sense than the expensive ones. I sold B&D tools back in the late 60's ...I remember delivering the first cordless drill to a automotive repair (cost $150)...he turned around and placed it on the table and then turned back to shake my hand...when he turned to pick up the drill it was gone, neve to be seen again.
So while I agree with you it dosen't mean the kiss of death...the B&D model has been to increase sales through market research and advertising...leading to consumer friendly modifications in the tools...and generally less quality in the parts because the 'general consumer' does not need the level of quality based on their use level. The real downside is the tradesman who depends on the quality will have no place to turn....
Extremely well said. I think you've hit it right on the nose.
Before I understood the difference between good tools and bad tools, I bought a B&D jigsaw to cut a hole through some 3/4 pine soffit material to install a vent. The saw would hardly cut the material. I could smell the motor starting to burn, etc. and it took about 15 minutes to cut a hole less than 12 inches square. Later I bought a Bosch jigsaw. . . .
B&D makes its money selling little cordless screwdrivers and such to homeowners, who need to drill a screw every three years or so. As you've said, they've opted for the Walmart market, just as the owners of American Woodworker have opted for the larger and more profitable market. I have nothing against that, but what I do have something against is when they or another company cheats consumers by pretending they are selling one level of quality and actually selling something else.
Mark,
Yes. My wife is well intentioned and did not understand about quality either three years ago when she bought me the B&D 9.6 coordless with the jig saw head and sanding head. So she wouldn't feel bad I bought a cabinet saw, bandsaw, router, drill press, lathe, planer, chop saw, jig saw, 12 hand planes, chisels, etc....it was the only thing I could do to keep her from being overwhelmed by future/other tool decisions.....I'm a very considerate guy.
I was just in a local Woodcraft and when I was checking out I noticed some DeWalt stuff next to the PC stuff.
I asked the check out clerk if he knew who had bought PC and he said B&D. I asked him if they were going to stop selling the PC stuff in favor of the DeWalt and he said:
"I hope not!"_________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell
Consolidation of businesses over the past twenty years on the whole I think has been bad for the consumer. Just look at electronics. Go into any major electronics store and see how few companies are represented and what junk so much of the stuff is. Mergers usually mean a company takes on large debts, than cuts corners every way it can to pay off that debt. What a takeover usually means is that the new parent company wants the market share of, not the quality and high standards of takeover target. Delta and Porter-Cable are two of the finest tool companies. Seeing them bought out by a company with a reputation for shoddy tools makes me sad. We'll continue to see these names on tools, but over time they are more likely to deteriorate instead of lifting the quality of the shoddy tools of the parent company. You know when the person calls 'We're making a survey about..." the caller is working for a marketing company whose only interest is in finding ways to sell you stuff. They have no interest in learning from you how to make their product better.
Couldn't agree with you more. I've been on here for a couple weeks now and while it may appear that I'm "dewalt bashing", the truth is that I hate seeing tools sold as "professional or contractor grade when they really aren't. It should be the way they're made and not just a catch phrase. I know that PC and Delta have produced some dogs in their time, but not on the scale that some of the others have done(BD comes to mind at the top of the list)I'm exploring Ridgids now as my faith in PC is gone and I'll be needing more tools soon as I plan on expaning my operations......
I assume you are buying Ridgid because you consider it a "professional grade" tool (and I remember what you said about the 3 year warranty) -- and I am curious on how you came to this conclusion.I have abvolutely no data to back this up (there isn't any), but my perception is that Ridgid is a notch below Dewalt in quality.
Well... it's a long story but here goes: I've been working on commercial job sites for many years now. In that time I've seen Dewalts (especially the cordless stuff) wear out in a manner I feel is premature. My Porter Cable 19.2 cordless has run (with the same batteries) for over 5 years without needing replacing. BD has bought Pentair so my faith in PC has diminished, perhaps without reason, but nonetheless it has.I've watched the ridgid's on these same job sites since they came out and they had a battery problem late last year, but otherwise they seem durable and reliable. I got started on this forum with the Pentair sale to BD, and have since seen many opinions stating that the Dewalt quality isn't there and I've had a bad experience with a Dewalt 1/2 inch electric drill myself.I've been told that Metabo makes the 6" Ridgid ROS so some of their tools come from a place I've seen that makes quality tools. I'm taking a chance on the Ridgid I know, but I'm not wasting money on DW now on PC, especially in light of the forums here and from what I've heard from specialty store people, etc....and..the 3 year warranty sold me even though I could have bought a tool cheaper....but cheap tools aren't what I need to "hope" last while on a site...
Well, if you're counting noses, I would say from what I read here and at Breaktime, the best cordless system at the moment belongs to Panasonic.
Yeah, I know...I've been seeing a LOT from both Panasonic and Bosch. I always wondered about them but have never seen much in the Panasonic line at the stores, Bosch I've seen around here on a limited basis. I think Panasonic was making for Craftsman at one point but that was only a rumor, never had any factual proof....
I have never seen Panasonic in the big box stores -- only tool outlets.On the other hand, there was a thread a few days ago at Breaktime that Sears was offering a great price (for a limited time) on one of the Pansonic tools; so maybe they are carrying them now.I know that Ryobi has done mfg. for Sears, but I don't know about Panasonic.
Please consider the Makita products - yes they are japanese but they make great tools. (I'm not just referring to battery powered) I have their circular saw, a corded hand drill, battery drill (15-18 years old and worked fine until I dropped it off an 8' ladder and broke off the handle which holds the battery). I recently bought their 12" planer - wow what a nice machine. Quiet, little snipe, easy to use, oh and did I mention quiet...BTW I love my PC Router and PC Sander -and am sad to see them go.M.
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
I used a Makita 9.6 when they first came out and had great success with it, really liked the drill, batts held a nice charge, etc. After that came a big PC 19.2 and that blew me away with the power they had. I was in a store in OKC last month, one that is an actual commercial supply house for contracting stuff, not a box store, and was told to watch out for Makita in the next few months as a lot of operations were heading downhill and they were rumored to be going out completely...anyone else heard something to this effect? The guy seemed fairly knowledgeable about tools and what the manufacturers were doing so I'm assuming he knows what he's talking about......Help!!!
Well I hope he's wrong. Yes I agree the 9.6v unit doesn't have the torque of the bigger boys but hey, I can deal with it...95% of the time it works fine (FYI I bought a replacement drill no battery/charger on ebay for $33 incl. shipping) gave the broken one to my son for disassembly and learning...Oh and did I mention how quiet the Makita planer is :-) Guess you can tell I've worked with a delta 12 " before this - even without wood in the delta it made more noise than the makita with wood...Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
I really did like the Makita, it was great for those smaller jobs that didn't require mass amounts of torque, I used it for years. I never got the chance to use any of the "new" models as they came out,(the 12v, the 14.4 etc) I went from 9.6 to 19.2 and was frankly skeptical about dropping back to an 18 after having seen countless dewalts and their poor performance, not so much in torque but in battery life and in some of the other areas I see people complaining about on here. I never really liked Dewalt except for my 12" compound miter, their stuff never seemed to hold up under real world conditions...but there's a slew of people who have experienced the same things I've seen.
Not intending to cut in but don't you feel we are our own worst enemy,we all look for cheap tools and the big box stores have the buying power that manufacturers like b+d start to build specifically for that price.Next comes the shrinking market for high quality and they get phased out leaving only weekend warrior quality tools.Eventually the Karl Holtey's of the world start to produce a limited range of products.But we have to be prepared to pay, and are we?
It is expensive to feed your horse oats ,but if you will accept those that have been through the horse once they are considerably cheaper!!
I've been reading the comments on B&D and can only agree, it appears the demise of PC is close at hand. I work commercial construction and regardless of the fact that my PC 19.2 volt cordless keeps running, the rest of the boys are still buying Dewalt, even though every year they have to replace the batteries while the PC batteries I'm using are 5 years old and work better and longer than theirs. Amazing!!
I do own a Dewalt compound miter saw and it performs flawlessly, so when I was in the market for an electric 1/2 inch drill I opted for a Dewalt, BIG mistake!! The motor started smelling like burnt varnish almost immediately and all I was mixing was a very thin grout for a small tile job I was completing, with the corrct attachment for mixing. I am not impressed with Dewalts circular saws, drills and cordless line of junk. In addition to working as a commercial carpenter I am starting a small woodworking business as well, and have had better luck with the Ryobi line of tools (router table combo's, etc) than I have with the far more expensive Dewalt stuff. In PC's defense, I recently bought a PC random orbit sander and it works just as it should, must be B&D hasn't had the opportunity to get their hands on making them yet. BTW, I have almost 25 years in the carpentry business and have seen my fair share of tools come and go, I see someone made the comment that Dewalts are now throwaway tools and I would certainly agree. Now that the PC demise is at hand, I can only hope to find another quality brand that will withstand the rigors of commercial work without having to add a 15% tools allowance into every job I bid.....wish me luck....
Well I guess everyone has there favorite line of tools. I've worked with many of the major brands over the last 20 years and I'd have to say that despite what all the companies boast about in their ads nothing really lasts for very long anymore. I think I get about
6 -7 years out of a Bosch cordless drill, a year out of a PC random orbit sander, and less than a year out of a Makita 4 1/2" angle grinder. I manage a shop at a university and it's a great testing ground for the longevity of tool life. If we could afford the initial investment I'd like to try out the Festool line I've heard promising comments on their products.
I've been reading and studying the Festool line as well and they do indeed show promise so they may be an option in the future on purchases.
I've seen the Bosch line of tools and have not yet spoken to anyone who has used one on a jobsite so it was good to hear that you get so many years out of a cordless drill, that may be an option for me as well. In truth, my PC cordless batteries are finally starting to go south, but they've been used daily for 5 plus years and have never let me down and what I do with them would have killed a dewalt long ago. I'll be in the market soon for a new drill(I figure I may as well buy an entire kit instead of just the batteries since the cost is comparable) and right now I'm looking at the P.C. and also the Ridgid (even though it's Chinese made) so hopefully soon something will come along to make my decision easier. Anybody heard any horror stories about the Ridgid line???
Well actually I didn't mention that I bought new batteries for the Bosch cordless at around five years and a year latter I had to install a new motor in one of them and one of them finally died this year after seven years of service. We replaced it with the newer version of the same drill. It's a lot beefier in terms of size and weight, like they have taken a que from Dewalt. I gave up on PC a long time ago because we do as much of our own servicing as we can like replacing bearings, switches, cords or whatever. And with PC I have found that a lot of their tools require some proprietery gizmo in order to service the tool. Not to mention the fact that they generally don't last more than a year or so in this environment.
Take a look at the Milwaukee line, a little more, but my luck over the last 15 years has been excellent.
Milwaukee dealers usually have recons on the shelf for considerably less and I have yet to see one that looks like a recon. Personally I think they're clearing out overstock.
I now work for an industrial tool dealer and PC and Milwaukee are our biggest sales lines. Hope that the PC don't get downgraded. The word we get from our rep is that the Delta line will be stationary tools, the PC line the commercial line, the B&D the home line, but who knows for sure.
I do own a Milwaukee circular saw and it has worked harder than most any tool I own and has not let me down yet, it's been 2 years of heavy use and no problems thus far......I see Milwaukee is coming out with a 28 volt line of cordless tools, and they aren't supposed to weigh much more than the 18 volt stuff, care to wonder how expensive they're going to be?? I should mention the circular saw has taken at least 3 trips off a 12/12 pitch roof that I can recall and it never so much as needed adjustment.
Now that I've talked about almost every brand in this forum, anybody heard about Makita packing it up and heading south?? I heard rumor that they were going out, this came from a dealer in OKC who said the quality was diminishing rapidly, (this was a few months ago), and that they were being made available only on a limited basis as they are phased out, haven't heard anything else regarding this though since then.....
Our store manager and asst. are going to a workshop on the new Milwaukee 28's next Monday, so I should have more info on them in a couple of weeks. I'll try to post what I learn.
They are supposed to be lighter than the 18's. I have the 18v driver/hammer drill and it has been my primary work horse for 3 years. Gets a little heavy driving sheetrock screws overhead, but then its time for a break anyway.
my primary (and only) workhorse right now is the 19.2 PC, still running strong on the original batteries for 5 years plus right now......not sure if you've been following the recent comments on here or not, but I am curious as to what my next cordless will be, either take a chance on a new B&D tooled PC or go with another brand.......
I assume you are working for a company that specializes in the construction field?? Lowes, HD, Menards or the like??? How about Ace??? I've been reading other columns on here and saw some scuttlebutt about the big box stores selling a cheaper version of the brand new tools, which I would consider to be completely false unless someone who works in that portion of the industry can validate......all one has to do is check the model #'s, I know Dewalt follows their reconditioned stuff with an "R" after the model number if this is the case and I've yet to see any "r" at the big stores...
I hear that stuff around here from some carpenter's and electricians. One electrician told me that if you look inside a dewalt drill from HD, Lowe's, etc that the gearing is plastic and if you look at one from a supply house or local equipment dealer that the gearing is all metal. I didn't bother to disagree but he's full of S**t. I've found the easiest way to see if any product is the same, look at the sku's on the package. Sku stands for stock keeping unit and that is how stores and the manufacturers keep track of the products. You'll find that sku's from HD, and Lowes are the same as the supply houses. Sometimes you'll see something that is made for only HD or Lowes but it is not very often. Dewalt, PC, Milwaukee, Bosch, etc are professional tools, they are not going to make inferior products for HD or Lowes. If they want to see a home owner line, they will set up a separate brand, i.e. Black and decker (before dewalt was called dewalt it was called "black and decker professional", the dewalt name came about to separate themselves from the home owner line of B&D). If the product line at home depot or lowes was different than a supply house, they would need a different sku. If they didn't have this, then product could accidentially be shipped to wrong places. An example, HD right now has their husky 48" level with a case and 10" torpedo for $30. Five feet away they have the exact same 48" level without anything else for the same $30. The two levels are the same in every single way with the exception the last 3 sku numbers are different. This is so in the computer system and their supply chain computers they can track the two different levels. If the sku's were the same, people could buy the level with the case and torpedo then return just the level and they would be out $0 and have the case and a torpedo for free.
A builder in my area also insisted to me that Andersen windows sold at home depot are a cheaper different line then what you get from the lumber yard and building supply houses. Well my friend's father has worked for Andersen's upper regional management for years and he's knows differently. It and the tool stuff is just an urban myth.
another example.
Some of the electronic stores like Best buy, circuit city, etc. sell identical products (i.e. TV's) that are exactly the same in every way but have different sku's. They do this so they don't have to honor price matching. They make go as far as selling a silver to Best buy and Black to walmart, etc. But the products are the same.
I couldn't agree with you more....my guess at the reason that tools and the like are more expensive at a true supply house and not a box store is due to higher overhead costs and less buying power, it's got to be cheaper buying 10,000 of something than it is to buy 100-200, it's only logical. I would imagine, as you say, that it's the same all over and just urban myth and the "paranoia factor" coming into play.
Something I know thats not myth is the following...back a few months ago I was in HD looking at the PC line of tools, just browsing and noticed that the shelves were almost bare of PC stuff. I was in Lowes later that afternoon and found the same thing, both had some electric stuff but no cordless line at all. I asked a worker at HD about this a couple days later and he told me that PC had some sort of deal going with both HD and Lowes that the other knew nothing about. Apparently, Lowes found out and it ticked them off to the point of them dropping all PC stuff except what was on hand.....likewise for HD, they found out something and dropped them as well. The last time I was in Lowes (locally), they were down to about 4 PC cordless accessories(batteries and a charger) and they were on closeout. My first guess concerning HD was that they were going to promote the Ridgid line more, but it's not the case...PC is long gone from both of these companies(at least in this area)
I stumbled on this website by accident and am glad I did as I have found out a wealth of info and confirmed some of my suspicions concerning Dewalt, I'm really disappointed in spending 100 dollars plus on a 1/2 inch drill and having it go south immediately, my faith in Dewalt is gone, both from what I've purchased and regretted and from seeing the other guys I work with have complaints as well. There are some out there that are saying that "since tools are going to be stolen from the jobsite anyway" that some of the companies have cheapened them up in an effort to stay in the market. If thats their marketing strategy then they need a new Board of Directors.....I've been working on commercial job sites for the past 10 years, with more subcontractors running around than I can count at times and we've never had a tool stolen, thats including from a secured job trailer after hours, no matter how remote the location. This includes working in 3 states for a couple different outfits and not knowing the subs at all until arriving on the site. Lucky??? Maybe, but I still believe that there are good souls out there who believe in craftsmanship and respect the fact that some men (and women) make their living with their tools and hands.
A New England company "Woodworkers warehouse) similar to Woodcraft was a very good woodworking supply house with about 80 stores throughout New England. Well, they went out of business this past summer. I asked the store manager I was friendly with and he said that they did very well selling woodworking accessories, finishes and hand tools but they got killed by the box stores with all the power tools and nailers. He said that they would only buy a few hundred of a finish nailer while HD and Lowes buys 10,000 for the whole chain and the price that HD and Lowes sold the nailer for would be less than what Woodworkers warehouse could buy them for. They just could not compete with that type of buying power. Its really too bad too because unlike the box stores, they had very knowledgable sales reps and was the only close woodworking supply place. Now I go to woodcraft 45 minutes away or shop the net and wait a week for delivery
They used to have one of those stores up in watertown, New York,,,(Wayyyyyyy upstate!!!!) and they closed a couple years ago as well....same reasons I would imagine as Lowes moved in there about 6 years ago and now they have a HD as well....
Funny you mention the Husky level...I just bought the combo deal about 2 weeks ago, one of my rookies has dropped it already and it still works fine...
We are a small industrial supply house and cater to the processing plants in the area and the contruction trade here.
you aren't around Oklahoma City are you?? I could sure use a good supply place....the choices are limited and pricey here as well....
Nope, we're in Moses Lake, WA. Long way from you.
I'd like to cast a little doubt on the negativity I'm hearing about DeWalt tools. I've got three fairly recent DeWalth tools:
A 5 1/2 inch angle grinder. I use it a LOT and it just keeps working great.
A 5" random orbit sander. It's been my sanding workhorse since I first tried it. About a million miles including the family room 2x6 tongue and groove doug fir, the entire pool gazebo (pretty big, lots of sanding), and all my furniture for about 10 years. I'm on the third pad, the fourth is waiting in a drawer and I need to take the time to put it on. Still going strong, still the greatest sander I've ever seen (anyone want some orbital sanders, cheap?)
A scroll saw. I use it, but I'm not a craft faire scroller so there's not a lot of miles on it. Great so far, but I've not used it enough to judge it.
All of you DeWalt detractors, what tool did you get that was bad and how was it bad? If you've just "heard from friends", that sounds like calumny to me.
I too have a few yellow tools that have served well. The only one I wore out is my old 14 volt drill/ driver. That was after almost two years of serious abuse. All my other Dewalt tools are excellent, particularly my miter saw. As has been mentioned before in other posts, I buy different products from different manufacturers. Routers from Bosch and PC, battery tools from Bosch and Dewalt, shop tools from Delta and Jet, bigger construction power tools from Milwalkee. I would never limit myself to any one brand.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
Just reading your message....thought I'd give you my 2 cents worth, and these are not something I heard from someone else, this is all stuff I've either seen with my own eyes or from purchases I've made and regretted...the one shining star in my eyes in the Dewalt line is the 12 inch miter saw...it's as good as any I've used and better than a couple....but as far as their 1/2 inch corded drills, no good...their cordless tools...worse than no good, batteries need replacing every year...(see my comments on Porter Cable), I can say more but I've said it here already...if you have a Dewalt tool that performs well, I think you've got a good one, but my experience and from what I've read, most everyone else on here as well, the Dewalt tool is nothing more than a bright yellow B&D..at about 3 times the price...
I think you are being unfair to B&D. "Big Bertha" will punch a hole in anything, and she's been at it for just a few years, LOL.
It's not that I'm being biased against B&D per se, the tools they produced back in the late 60's and early 70's were as good as could be found, but since we're not living in the 60's and 70's anymore, then what else can I say?? The JUNK they mass produce now is so far inferior to even a brand like Ryobi is pathetic, you may as well take the money you'd spend buying B&D, pour some paint thinner on it and set it on fire, at least you'd get a "warm feeling" from that......Evolution is a way of life and B&D has "devolved" rather than follow the natural order of progression...
I was just spoofing. I suspect Big Bertha predates the 1950's. My father picked her up on the side of the road - the cord was torn off. No doubt someone got carried away, LOL.
B&D is what happens when the engineers loose control of the product and the company. It's happened over and over... I suspect Mr Black and Mr Decker are still turning over in their graves.
do I dare ask what your opinion of what B&D will do to PC and Delta?? I'm really hesitant to buy either one at this point and am curious as well as to see when B&D actually starts making them in their own factories...I understand the layoffs have already started from the PC group.....
B&D will find the cheapest factory in China...
I was wandering thru one of the BBS that recently opened in my area - there was a 14" Bandsoar on display that bore the Delta name. The resemblance between that and my 1930's vintage Delta was an illusion. Pretty dreadful, to be charitable.
The good news is that there are options, not the least of which is buying used (tho I suspect the prices for the good stuff will start going up), and there are suppliers who still take pride in their products. Lastly, there will be a "boutique" manufacture no doubt, sort of like L-N taking over as Stanley went down the same rat hole, chasing the allmighty buck.
I'll add my two cents.
There's a reason these product lines keep being sold. It's because you can't make money selling high-quality tools to people like us. It's a niche market to begin with, then you get beat up by the big box stores on price.
I see no reason to believe B&D will do anything but squeeze the value out of the PC and Delta brand names by degrading quality and selling to a wider market. It will work for 3-7 years and by then they will have justified their return on investment. Personally, I think it would be foolish to buy PC or Delta from this point forward, knowing that every day an accountant at B&D is trying to make that tool more profitable, i.e., cheaper. This is a disappointment to me because I've always liked PC.
I'm not saying B&D is doing anything wrong. As others have said, we bring this upon ourselves by shopping price. Nevertheless, we know that B&D is going to act rationally so we have to act rationally as well. My next post will be: do you know anywhere I can save some money on Festool?
The thing that really gets me about the whole deal is it seems like every few years just after I start getting into a routine of the tools I purchase the quality starts heading south and I have to find another brand to take the demand I put on them. I use my tools hard every day to make my living and I can't have them fail on job sites. I've liked the PC now for the past couple years and have been gearing all my future purchases toward them, i.e., the new circular saw I'm going to need, etc. I just bought a couple PC trim guns and one of their compressors for finish work, and when my big compressor craps out I was planning on a PC oil bath compressor for the heavy duty air demands. I like having one brand name of tools (call me crazy) and it seems every time I find a tool I like and wear it out after contractor grade use, either it's been cheapened to the point of being garbage oe something else. I've liked PC for a few years now and in all the years I've been using the 19.2 drill it's yet to be the only one I've ever seen on a job site. I don't care what I have to pay for a tool as long as the quality is there to justify the expense...I'd rather pay a couple hundred for a good tool up front than spend 100 bucks 3 times to keep replacing a so so tool.....
I think your fine with PC nail guns, the cir and the compressor. I think they make the best brad nailer and circular saw out there, both are the best I've used. The thing I would stay away from is the cordless sets. It will be interesting to see what B&D does with the PC line since there is are so many redundant tools with the dewalt.
I sure hope so...I see a lot of the PC guns in use on sites and they're a welcome addition to my collection. I've been using a PC cordless 19.2 for years now and have never had one problem with it and am still on the original batteries 5 years and going strong....however, the capacity is slowly going away, so I'll be in the market soon, with the cost of 2 new batteries I was planning on buying a complete new kit that way I'd have one drill for the really dirty nasty jobs (wet locations, etc) and one for the finer aspect of my job, Now, I'm considering a new brand with BD's buyout, not daring to get stuck with a PC tooled by BD and having it be a piece of junk......the guys on our sites are replacing dewalt batts every year so thats not an option and I fear the PC quality will diminish to that point now.......guess I'll go Ridgid or Bosch for the next one....
The one thing I really like about Dewalt is that they have a ton of cordless tools, it really increases your flexibility. They have drills, grinders, impact driver, saws, sawsall, vacuum, radio, jig saw, etc. I think Bosch probably is the next closest with the depth of their cordless line. If I were in the market now for cordless tools, I think I would go with Bosch. I would probably spring a little more and get the 4 pack that comes with a free jig saw, Amazon has that still, I think? The drill, trim saw, recip and light with the free cordless jig saw for $500.
One other purchase I think happened last summer is the company that make Ryobi bought Milwaukee. Ryobi is junk, so I think the Milwaukee line will stay the same. I've heard that this month Milwaukee is coming out with a new line of cordless tools. I think they are 28 volts but are still lighter than the 18 volt line. I've only heard rumors about the features but I guess the battery technology in that line are light years ahead of the existing lines of dewalt, pc, bosch, etc. I don't know if I would want to buy them the first year they are out, it seems that even with all the testing companies do, they always need to fix a few problems that pop up. Bosch needed to change the internal intenna on their radio and replace it with an external. The other thing is I've heard in the "rumors" that the Milwaukee will be $$$.
I was in a HD yesterday and when I was speaking to the tool guy there and mentioned BD bought PC he claimed he didn't know that had happened. I was at a local supply house here in OKC this afternoon and was talking to one of the salesmen there and we got into the topic of BD&PC...he told me they quit buying PC stuff for sale as soon as they got the news about the sale....he told me that a lot of DW stuff is coming back constantly for repairs and agreed on the Bosch line even though they don't carry it but would like to. I looked at Bosch and they do make what appears to be a great tool, they have a good warranty but not as good, I've discovered, as Ridgid. The salesperson told me also at the supply house that I'd be nuts to buy a PC right now....anyway, to make a long story short and even though I am not ready for a new cordless yet, i went ahead and bought the 3 pc combo Ridgid today, it's got a 3 year warranty (batts included) and an unconditional 90 day money back guarantee. In 90 days I'll know if I made a good choice or not, I'll just keep watching the calendar and make sure when my time is ready to expire. We use cordless stuff pretty hard down here so it won't be long until the truth comes out...and, I got a certificate to receive a free 3rd battery for the Ridgid by mail, so that will be on it's way tonight...The whole deal was 299 bucks and I get the 3rd batt so it appears to be a good deal...I looked at some of the dewalt kits but have seen too many times on job sites when a dewalt user needed to borrow my PC to complete a task....
Just to add my $0.02:
I probably would buy PC right now. If I new the tool was made using the usual PC standards- I'd buy iy now, but not in a year when BD may have changed the manufacturing process and undermined quality. It's a bit like buying pre-WWII Stanley planes- I would not buy a Stanley made in 1999, but would consider one made in 1939. I think that the PC tools that you can really inspect without taking apart (like the biscuit joiners with the highly machined steel heads) are easy to distinguish for quality, and given the large number manufactured, will likely have parts for many years.
As for the urban legends regarding bait and switch tactics, that does happen. There have been consent decrees with states attorneys general regarding reconditioned tools (and electronics) being sold as new, usually by large retailers, but also by manufacturers. What is more insidious is brand corruption. While it is true that I have never seen the exact model number and SKU used, they are often designed to be very similar. A model 482bst becomes a model 482bxt. Many people, even those who copy the model # out from Consumer Reports will miss this. It's not illegal, but it is deceptive. I have had to return tools in the past for this reason on two occasions. I mean, after all, if your friend is using a cordless drill and you think it's well made, it's not likely that he will have packaging handy to give you the SKU. All you need to think about is, if a tool has significantly cheaper construction- lighter, more plastic, etc, why should it share a nearly identical model #? Is that really a strange coincidence?
I agree with what was said earlier: very likely BD will push down the manufacturing quality, while trying to market the living daylights out of the name and driving it into the crapper. In 5-7 years, they'll have made their short term bucks, and will probably try to buy Festool and Bosch and do the same thing.
Glaucon
Not that I would believe them, but a B&D salesperson told me that the PC line tooling will stay the same. He said that they wanted a higher quality line to compete with other high quality lines and nothing would be changed other than dropping a couple of tools to clean up the line. Like many of you, I think I will go with Ridgid.
And, who do you think makes the Ridgid tools? Most are made by Ryobi, some are made by Metablo.Howie.........
Not meaning to cut in..but the Metabo tools I've seen are top notch, the 6"ROS is 1st rate and I know they make those for Ridgid...I've done a lot of checking on the Ridgid line and even started a forum here and all I can say is that watching their tools operate on a construction site day in and day out without a hitch is good enough for me.....I watched the same job site with dewalts and the tools basically are yellow BD's, poor quality and needing battery replacement every year while my Porter cable hasn't even flinched in over 5 years. The only QC issue I've ever seen with Ridgid was a battery problem late last year and that seems to have faded as well, I know a lot of guys who are buying them up and running them hard, and these are the guys that make a living off their tools. Now, in Dewalts defense, I do own one of their 12 inch compound miter saws and it works just as you'd expect, but the cordless line is terrible and I can't say much for the rest of their electric line either, I've personally had bad experiences with their 1/2 inch electric drills and have seen issues with planers and circular saws alike, even when nearly brand new. I work with a bunch of guys who have anywhere from 15-30 years in the business so they know how to take care of a tool...and lastly.....the warranty on Ridgids is better right now than any other tool I'm aware of, so if the warranty is there then they'd not be giving it unless they expected few problems (90 days unconditional, 3 years on all tools, including the batts) can't argue with that........
"And, who do you think makes the Ridgid tools? Most are made by Ryobi, some are made by Metablo."
One World Technologies (OWT) is the tool-making wing of the Hong Kong-based TechTronic Industries Company Limited.
OWT now manufactures and markets the Ridgid brand of hand and stationary power tools under a partnership agreement with Emerson.
OWT also makes many private-label tools (such as some of the Craftsman brand). The Ryobi name we're most familiar with is a subsidiary company under the OWT umbrella. (Ryobi also makes some private-label tools -- such as the bottom-line cheap arsed Craftsman routers.)
OWT has also acquired the Milwaukee brand of tools from Atlas-Copco.
Although OWT builds to various market levels (such as Ryobi for the "occassional" user), they have reputation for preserving - and even building on - quality levels of brands -- such as Ridgid and Milwaukee -- for the "heavy duty" market.
Finally, Black & Decker is NOT buying Pentair -- B&D is buying the *tool business* FROM Pentair. Pentair is getting out of the tool business and concentrating on what they're good at (electrical enclosures & water treatment).
Pentair's tool business, which B&D is in the process of acquiring, includes Porter Cable, Delta Machinery & DeVilBis (the air compressor and air tool company that makes and sells more brands than you can shake a stick at!).
I hope this corporate stuff helps straighten some things out :-)
-- Steve
Enjoy life & do well by it;
http://www.ApacheTrail.com/ww/
Edited 3/9/2005 1:56 pm ET by Putzger
Edited 3/9/2005 1:57 pm ET by Putzger
>>One World Technologies (OWT) is the tool-making wing of the Hong Kong-based TechTronic Industries Company Limited.And, OWT owns Ryobi and contracts all its toolmaking to Ryobi or other manufacturers. At this point, Ryobi is the actual manufacturer of the Ridgid hand power tools except for some sanders made by Metablo.Howie.........
"He said that they wanted a higher quality line to compete with other high quality lines and nothing would be changed other than dropping a couple of tools to clean up the line."
And I've got some Florida swampland for sale.
Every minute of every day the accountants and investment bankers are going to figuring out how to leverage those brands into higher margins and higher bottom lines.
I think the key line the rep said was "clean up the line" I take that to mean Get all the qualilty expensive parts out of there.
I have friends that have had good luck with some dewalt tools but I always think your rolling the dice. For every good experience there are at least one bad.
what they should do is phase out the Dewalt line and keep the high quality that PC has right now and keep the PC line.......
Hey Mark...don't mean to jump in, but when he said they were going to compete with other quality lines, surely he couldn't have meant going against dewalt..., OR was he saying he (they) wanted a higher quality line than the DW line they already cheapened?? Could it be they know what they've done to the DW line and given themselves a less than shining reputation so they need another brand name to recover ground??I see one thread on here stating that BD/Dewalt was a good weekender/hobbyist tool...maybe this is where BD plans on "niche'ing" DW in the future???
OK I'm confused. Dewalt is owned by BD or Stanley?
BD just bought PC's parent company?If BD owns both, then perhaps they plan to have three lines. BD for Low end - occasional user.
Dewalt for construction / handy man
Porter Cable for the craftsman/high end wwthat would suggest that PC eliminate things like high torque hand drills, pressure washers, generators but make lots more routers/planers/biscuit joiners...I was puzzled when Dewalt came out with the "portable" planer that weighed about 100 lbs. Didn't seem like their niche. (DW 735 two speed) I can't see an on site carpenter lugging that thing around.) The bigger planer would fit better in a shop line of tools.Generally, I don't think of DW as a shop tool, PC on the other hand...Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Mark..BD owns Dewalt ( for a few years now) and last year they purchased the Pentair tools group(Porter Cable, Devilbiss, Delta, I think that may be it)I'm not happy about the purchase but then again I don't have much choice in the matter. You could be right about the lines, I use the PC stuff for my daily routine on job sites and I'm in the minority of users. I have loaned my PC cordless to some subs on the job or one of my guys and they're impressed with the heft and power, most of these are guys that have been using DW...
B & D has owned Dewalt really forever. Dewalt used to be called Black & Decker professional. The trades people were not buying them though, they just thought it was a regular home owner B & D, so they came up with Dewalt brand name. It is all marketing, I did a case study on the entire creation of the Dewalt line for my undergrad. B & D did test marketing and interviews with tradesmen and the yellow was choosen because of the high visibility, etc. Most people don't know that Dewalt is just the professional B & D, so they think it is a quality tool. It's just all marketing though.
So in light of this information you have...did BD really make a better grade tool than what they made under the BD name or was it all just smoke?? I'm really curious to this as I've not had many good experiences with the yellow tools nor have I seen many on job sites or on these forums.....I think that as you stated, it's just all marketing.....did they improve the line or just blow smoke up the publics collective butts???? I'm laughing about this because here we've run into somebody who has actually studied the Bd marketing machine, and hope you can shed some light with your findings.....Thanks!!!!
We didn't get into the manufacturing or the quality control. We were interested only in the marketing aspects and the development of the brand name, dewalt. What most likely happened is dewalt was a good tool when they first being sold under that name (I think it was around the early '90's) but when they got involved with home depot and a few years later lowes, they got into the mass production, lower quality. Microsoft certainly does not make the best software and never has but Bill Gates and Microsoft can sell salt to a thirsty person in the desert. Dewalt is the same, they are an exceptional marketing company. I think their deal with the devil (home depot) really changed their view of tools. Where the market was always the professional trades, now with the big box stores the market has shifted toward the DIYer's. Home Depots crap about "you can do it, we can help" has every accountant and lawyer with two brain cells in conflict thinking they can frame a house. So you have a huge group of people without a clue buying tools and I think they really like the yellow color and don't know a thing about the quality. Also, those people are never going to use the tools like tools should be used. So when a tradesman wears out a dewalt drill in a year, that DIYer will take a lifetime plus.
Here, Here!!! Couldn't agree more.....I've had many circumstances on some of my smaller jobs I've "eventually" gotten, after giving a price to them for my services, them thinking I was too high priced and then getting a call a month or so later, either after them following the "you can do it" attitude, getting aprt way through it and messing it up, or by thinking I was too pricey, then getting bids from other contractors and having to deal with non professional attitudes and the like.I tell customers that it's not the labor they're paying for in my bids, it's the experience and the expertise and knowledge. Cocky?? Maybe so, but my complaint list is small on all the jobs I've done and in my years I've only had one customer that wouldn't allow me to use them as a reference after the project was completed.Yeah, the yellow color is kinda "feng shui", maybe BD can get Martha Stewart to start hawking it now for an added boost.BD really should start hawking DW as DIY/homeowner grade for the most part and push the PC line as the true professional grade, IF they keep the quality in that line....
"B & D has owned Dewalt really forever."I guess forever is in the eye of the belolder.From one of numerous company histories of DeWalt available by Googling:DeWalt Products Co. was founded 1924, two years after Ray DeWalt invented the radial arm saw, which he originally called the "Wonder-Worker". DeWalt Products Co. was reorganized in 1947 as a subsidiary of the newly-formed DeWalt Inc.American Machine & Foundry Co. Inc., purchased DeWalt Inc. in 1949. AMF is more famous for owning Harley Davidson from 1969 to 1981, and for making bowling equipment. In 1960 AMF sold DeWalt to Black & Decker, of toaster fame; DeWalt was operated as a subsidiary until 1970, when it became the Lancaster Machinery Division. It now operates as DeWalt Industrial Tool Co., headquartered in Hampstead, MD
I'm 30, forever is 30 years for me.
This is from Dewalt's website. Before 1992 they made panel saws and radial arm saws. It was in 1992 when B&D started using the dewalt name for their professional tools. My undergrad was on the marketing and the product design (yellow color and other suggestions that trades people made). The case was 10 years ago, so I get a little fuzzy on a few things. Thanks for the correction though.
1992
DEWALT introduces its first line of portable electric power tools and accessories designed specifically for residential contractors, remodelers, and professional woodworkers.
1994
DEWALT launches a revolutionary system of over 30 new cordless tools, including the most powerful cordless tool at the time, the 14.4 volt cordless drill/driver and 5 3/8" cordless saw. DEWALT cordless system included drill/drivers, screwdrivers, impact drivers, impact wrench, saws, flashlights, and the first combination drill/driver/hammerdrill.
Black & Decker owns the following tool brands: a. Black & Decker b. DeWalt
Stanley owns: a. Stanley b. Huskey c. Zag d. and a host of others
Home Depot and Lowes made the DeWalt brand famous with the huge distribution that they wield. Now Home Depot is destroying the brand by bringing in their own Rigid too line and decreasing shelf space for DeWalt.
These Mega box retailers are killing the brands and the quality. The manufacturer's are forced to decerase quality to meet profit margins that satisfy the retailer. And when the retailer still is not happy with the margins of the manufacturer; despite the best efforts of the manufcturer, the retailer puts their own brand in. The big box retailers are killing quality and forcing products to be made in Asia. It is sad...no doubt about it.
Thank you,
The Great Marko
Hey Mark...let me throw in regardling my last statement that I am not running an entire woodshop or anything where I need cabinet saws, bandsaws, planers, etc for my work...I'm not into furniture making etc, so most of my tools are hand tools and I feel I could get away with using one brand and being happy (and satisfied with the results!!)
I don't think there is a single tool company that makes the best of every kind of hand tool. All of them are better at some things than others.
IanDG
Mark-I agree that we consumers are responsible for the decline in quality that goes along with the decline in price. We have Wal-Marted ourselves. But irony is never far away in this forum.Numerous threads have been devoted to the heartbreak of customers balking at a fair price for custom furniture and just not appreciating how much talent and work is involved. Yet I wonder how many of those same craftspeople seek out the lowest possible price when buying tools and express amazement at how overpriced high-quality tools from the likes of Festo and Felder are.
Good to see you around, Don. As usual, I agree with you.
Black and Decker started in the UK in the '60s making tools for the DIY market that were virtually throw-away. So far so good -- there was a market for them.
They have taken over many tool companies with reputations for good tools -- Elu and DeWalt are two that come to mind -- and every time B&D have driven the quality down.
I hate the way they've reduced quality choice for all of us.
IanDG
Hey Pete, you summed it up in a short concise manner, I agree completely, the yellow line is getting cheaper by the day and I see no brightness in the PC line down the road. It would appear that you and I are in the majority about the demise of dewalt, even though they are at a saturation point in the market..have you been following the threads on here the past couple weeks??The only dewalt tool I've ever had luck with was a 12 inch compound miter saw. What brand of cordless tools do you use??
Wow, it will be painful to see Porter Cable go downhill.
John
Don't mean to butt in, I feel the same...so much in fact that I went out the other day and purchased the Ridgid 18 volt combo kit because my nearly 6 year old Porter cable 19.2 will need replacing soon and I didn't dare to buy another..............and I'd rather trust something with a 3 year warranty and 90 days unconditional than take a chance on something tooled by B&D....
Just got off the phone with the PC customer service department...at least they're still identifying themselves as PC/Delta...finally got around to ordering the black triggers for their guns I bought....
They'll never drop the name porter cable or delta, there is too much value in the names. What will be interesting though is what products they will continue to sell. Delta will probably remain the same, since its all larger tools and they don't compete with dewalt's line. It will be interest to see what they do with the pc and dewalt though since they compete on nail guns, routers, cordless, all sanders, recip's, circular saws, etc.
. . . on the other hand, they are making money according to the WSJ.
Big difference between making money and maximizing profit. They have redundance in the lines and will not want to keep that. The worse example of it is with General motors, they had a ton that were in the small auto category, i.e. pontiac, buick, oldsmobile and chevy. It is too expensive to run extra lines because most costs are duplicated such as advertising and production also you'll pay more to the retail stores sometimes for shelf space (Not sure if tool stores do this, I know supermarkets and walmart types do.)
"Big difference between making money and maximizing profit. " ...and your point is?I believe your brand prejudice is showing. Not that I am a B&D loyalist, but the company is successful. Period.There is so much speculation on this website and in this thread that I'm encouraging you and others to stick to the facts rather than add to the speculation. Without knowing what motives and business plans exist in a company's boardroom, there's no way to judge them. Or their product lines. So far I've only heard a few anecdotal reports here about B&D's existing products and a lot of speculation about their impact on the recent acquisitions. How do you know they aren't planning to sell off some it? Any publicly held company must focus on the bottom line (in this case it's a $6.6 billion conglomerate with a respectable dividend yielding 1.4%, P/E of 15.2, and trading in the 80s near the top of it's range). Sure, they could cheapen their lines in order to gain sales volume, but volume does not sustain a poor product line for long and over the long haul doesn't spell success. If it turns out they've made a mistake in buying certain tool lines, they will either fail or alter their course and the people/institutions who own their stock won't give them much slack. As far as individual brands are concerned, I've seen nearly every one trashed at one time or another on this this thread and it's never proved anything.
It is so hard to keep track of who owns and makes what that my solution has become to keep all tool test articles I get until they are replaced by a updated ones. That way if I need one of those tools I can just refer back to the latest testing done. This way I dont have to worry about what name is on a tool, just how it performs.
I combine the product reviews that I see with the stuff I see in the field, from personal experiences (not rumor) and recently, from stuff I've been reading about on here....I try and discount the rumor mill and I try (even though my postings may suggest otherwise) to give B&D the benefit of the doubt, but given their past track record, I'm having a hard time trying to stay optimistic......
"I believe your brand prejudice is showing. Not that I am a B&D loyalist, but the company is successful. Period."
So how much B&D stock do you own? Or do you just get a commission for your PR posts? Home Depot is a very successful stock and profitable company. They also sell absolute garage for products (in general), have the worst customer service and provide you with a horrible experience whenever you set foot in their store. Companies can be affected over the long term if they make inferior quality products but certainly not always. Dewalts main customer base is not contractors or professional users, it is the DIYer that has grown over the last 10 to 15 years. Since they do not use the product in a demanding environment and do not ask it to live up to a quality tool, they will never have dewalt fail on them. Poor products are sometimes very successful and financially rewarding to their parent company. Example being Microsoft, they make a mediocre at best windows software but they dominant the market and are very successful. Marketing strategies are designed to sell a product, it doesn't have anything to do with the quality of the product. Dewalt is a marketing company that just happens to sell tools, they are not a tool company. I have had dewalt tools in the past but I guess unlike you, I have learned from my errors. They only make a few tools I would buy (miter saw, cordless drill and router). The rest of the tools require you to maintain a tool box full of repair kits.
You can reply to this with some more Dewalt PR/Spin or maybe start a new thread called God is great but Dewalt is better.
"You can reply to this with some more Dewalt PR/Spin or maybe start a new thread called God is great but Dewalt is better."What does this mean?I have no connection with B&D whatever, including not owning any of their stock.
This must be the day for sweeping generalizations. Jim stepped in to offer a more reasoned, fact-based set of comments, and you flame him.What's up with that?
So let me ask you, if you were directing the way they operated...how would you reorganize them??If it were me, i'd push the PC line as the true contractor grade tool and let DW be emphasized more toward the DIY'er, especially in light of somebodys comment on here about the way HD and Lowes has embraced the "you can do it, we can help" posture and pushed the DW brand to the point of saturation......
that was me.
I really don't understand the purchase. I understand the Delta purchase but pc and devillibis (spelling) compete directly with the current lines. My guess is that pentair would not sell delta alone so that option was not available. The most expensive was to grow is to buy an existing company. The least expensive (as long as research and development are normal) is to develop from within. I think Dewalt should have just put money into R&D and bettered their current line of products. PC's are better than dewalt but if they made advancements in technology, like what the new milwaukee 28 volt line is advertised to do, then they would be at the top of respect. The whole point of an acquisition is to get into a new market (either product or location), or increase market share by closing out the competition. I guess B&D's thought was marketshare but they could have grown their own market share for much less than buying pc. Most of pc's customers know that dewalt bought them, and just look at it as a grey dewalt. I for one am moving towards the milwaukee and bosch in the near future and will buy pc's and dewalt rarely.
Same here, you probably saw the thread where I bought a new Ridgid combo kit for fear of buying a gray Dewalt to replece my current PC.Perhaps BD didn't want to put the money into R&D because their name is somewhat synonomous (sp?) with DIY/throwaway tools?? I would like to think they've maybe done marketing analysis and found this to be the case, perhaps contractors and the like told them what they thought of their tools and the response was negative( just like from what I've seen on here about DW)I really do hope they don't cheapen the PC line or eliminate some of the line bacause PC is a great tool, a far greater percentage of the time than the same DW is, but I'll guarantee I'll not buy another PC tool until after a couple years of BD at the helm to see if quality declines. When I buy a tool I expect it to last a "normal" lifetime...I remember in the car industry when I was in school (mid 70's) of a term called "planned obsolesence".I'll not buy another Dewalt ever,I've had, seen and heard about too much bad luck with them to waste any more money on them....I'll be keeping tabs on the same lines as you, in addition to Ridgid....I'm hearing lots of good about the Bosch line...
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