Well, I have been warned.
Matt Berger has closed the thread “In Response to Someone Leaving” and has singled me out for scolding in the last message of the thread.
“I haven’t had time to read through this discussion but I did scroll through it quickly and was not impressed with your post, Rich14.
Who cares if you were provoked into writing this kind of rubbish? The fact is, you have degraded this discussion into a personal attack.
Fine Woodworking does not host this forum so users can go around offending people who speak their mind. You’re likely not the only one in this discussion crossing the line (and I’m not about to stay late on a Friday night to identify all the others) but you have exemplified the very behavior we don’t condone.
This discussion is off to the Cafe and will likely find its way to the scrap bin when I get back to work on Monday”
As far as I’m concerned, the thread should be incinerated now. I apologize to anyone who feels that I have somehow exemplified behavior that this forum doesn’t condone, or that I have degraded this place. The OP on that thread insulted multiple individuals and the forum in general. I called him on his behavior and I’m now the bad guy. Wonderful.
But he erased his posts, so that evidence is gone. I don’t really care. Matt jumped in here with both boots on my neck and that really does bother me. I emailed him and told him how I felt about his dressing me down in the public forum.
I feel he’s off base, and over the line himself, whether he owns the place or not, since he has no sense of the obnoxious behavior I criticized or what was actually happening in all those vitriolic posts that I had no part in.
Be careful what you say, it may get you scolded or banned. I don’t know if I’ve been banned (yet). But this is no fun at all so I think I’ll spare you all my degrading behavior for a while. I’ll leave my posts intact, though. Have fun.
Rich
Replies
Rich,
I think that Matt will be able to "read between the lines" -- the lines being the dozens of deleted posts by Riverprof. It should be clear to see, by reading the reactions of so many, how offensive his deleted posts were. The entire "snob" thread was predicated on his insulting a significant demographic here. Both of his "new" threads were vindictive, since he couldn't handle any disagreement with his statements in an earlier thread. It is a shame that some chose to insult him in return, but it is a sign of the degree to which he offended many Knots readers. The two recent threads begun by him were designed to "taunt" you and others (including me) into responding. (JeanLou came to his defense but it seems to me he had his own axe to grind (Scary Sharp?) from some previous threads as well.)
-Andy
Edited 2/2/2007 6:56 pm ET by VTAndy
Rich and Andy
The posts are still available if you want to review the escalation of strong emotion and tone. Read it all with an open mind, and do not look at who goaded who into saying what was said. Change all the names and look at what was said. Try to step back and don't have any personal involvement, and be objective in your analysis.
I for one am glad that he stopped the posting. I think he did well to leave it available and still allow those interested to re-read and rethink the whole thing. In my humble opinion, without pointing any fingers, a travesty took place today, and it saddens me.
Matt handled it like a professional and a gentleman. He demonstrated amazing restraint by not stopping things sooner.
Many, including riverprof, allowed their exchanges to degrade / return to the old string style. My intent in starting the new string was to allow room for reconciliation and face-saving, not to open a new forum for more of the same vitriol and worse. It is not my choice where a string will go, and this one sure as I am sitting here, went south, way south. JL
JL,
I have re-read the threads. I'm not sure what you mean when you say the old posts are still available -- Riverprof deleted many, many posts on two different threads. You can only read others' responses to him, as well as the title of one thread where he claimed that we were "too snotty" for him. The fellow was unable to disagree with others in a civil manner, and his taunting resulted in others insulting him.
I actually refrained from any insults, yet he said in a later post that I was the only one for whom he felt "contempt." I found his generalizing statements to be very offensive, and these offensive generalizations are what goaded other posters into openly insulting him. It is unfortunate, but it was clearly the product of his "trolling." His patronizing tone, self-righteous declaration of altruisms ("good tools do not a craftsman make"), and opinions that I disagreed with were perfectly tolerable, all part of differing opinions to which a good forum is home. However, his persistent, insulting, psychologizing characterizations of those with who he did not agree were not conducive to civil discussion, nor was the way he ungenerously continued to sling accusations at people when they attempted to reconcile their differences with him.
Perhaps he will sleep on it and return with a new ID and fresh outlook. Call me an optimist.
-Andy
Andy
When I posted, the complete string that started this morning was still available to read, but posting and editing was locked out. I did not return to look for it. JL
Jean-Louis,
I can't help but think you must be including me in your disappointment as I posted to RP a few times today. I respect you and your postings. I tried my best to be tempered despite RP's insistance on his snob and "tool collector" themes. I tried to joke with him about his continual threats "to leave" and show him that I had indeed taken his other threads seriously and agreed with him on his point about inexpensive tools being capable of fine quality work by linking to past posts of mine. I implored him to start again more than once with a fresh woodworking thread (like his very good "I hate finishing" thread), the last time saying:
"Once again, I invite you in all earnestness and sincerity: Don't leave, just make a new start. You will find kindred souls here (along with some at the far opposite extreme), perhaps even me. Just leave the attitude and indignation and put downs at the curb this time."
He did not want any part of it. I fear he could not dare be wrong. He could not let go of his untrue and unkind generalizations. He did not want to shake, have a beer, and talk woodworking. What can you do?
I doubt you are satisfied with any of that. I'm sadden if I have disappointed a friend. Please forgive me.
Sean
Sean
The saddness is about where it went and not who helped it go there.
I pass no judgement, friend. JL
"went south, way south."Please explain this expression, if you can, in such a way as to avoid geographical bigotry. How careful must we be to be politically correct?Cadiddlehopper
Caddid
..."Went to hell in a hand basket" is another way to say this, but this would probably irritate those who do not believe in hell, or those who do and may feel that I am goading the devil...so another way might be ..."deteriorated past the point of no return", but that might upset those who feel there never is a point of no return...or those that feel there was never a starting point
I think I will allow those who are wiser than I am to re-write the line. I will stick with "went south, way south" because I come from the Quebec, not only north of the Mason Dixon line, but north of the US / Canadian border, where even upstate New York is south, way south.
Don't you come from the North (North Alabama)? Maybe we need to make you an honourary Canadian. Then ''south'' will have much more impact, especially in February, when a bit of the south would do these frozen bones a world of good!. :-) JL
We have a similar expression up here, that is "outside", and belive me, up here, everywhere else is "outside"!! " We don't care how they do it outside"
Pedro
Pedro
I bet your bones could do with a little southern sunshine and heat about now.
One of my sons lived in the Whitehorse area for about 10 years. I went to visit once, flying in via Edmonton. That was one of the longest travel days of my life and VERY expensive! It is beautiful where you are, but I think that I will stay "outside" and a little farther south, way south! ( and east, way east...like Quebec City). JL
One of the reasons that the people that are here are still here, is that they can't afford to leave!!! We have another expression, "Sourdough". It used to mean someone who has spent at least one winter here, but also means, "sour on the country, but not enough dough to get out" I love it here, and have no desire to go "outside". Our advantages are a secret, and we keep it that way, or else everyone else would come up here, and then we lose our advantage!!!
Pedro
Pedro
You all are so far away that there is not too much danger of losing the secret. So true about the cost of traveling to and from your corner of Eden. I also have family in Sept Isles, on the North shore of the St Lawrence near the Gulf. They talk about going out when they leave to visit the big cities, and they are not far north, simply isolated. It costs big money to fly in out of there also, so people tend to stay in, or take the ferry and then drive...a long ways. The last time I drove there from Quebec City, I continued on to Natashquan, the next major center and also the end of the road. From there on it is helicopter or bush plane, and of course the old standard, a good pair of hiking boots in the summer and snow shows in the winter. JL
There are advatages and disadvantages to everything. I love the isolation here, its dark outside at night. When I hear a vehicle I look to see who it is, because so few come here. When I look out my windows, I don't see any neighbors. All the little things that add up to peace and quiet. Its not for everyone, another advantage.
Pedro
...your little piece of the Garden of Eden. You are a fortunate man to have found a home that brings you peace. JL
Our garden isn't so good, but you are right, we are fortunate in finding a place of peace and quiet.
Hi jeanlou and ptu,
Although my world doesn't seem as remote as yours, the wife can saddle one of the horses and ride from the backyard. I also notice the occasional vehicle driving by, only two neighbors in sight.
We moved here (my hometown) from the crowded city about 12 years ago and have never looked back. The peace and quiet is theraputic.
Also, getting into hand tools, more peace and quiet. Now I can listen to music while I work in the woodshop with windows that overlook the pasture/fields on one side and the forest to the north.
When I retire next year.............. I can't wait!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 2/6/2007 9:12 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob
You are remote; ptu is remote; I live in Quebec City which is anything but remote. I am a strange beastie that enjoys the greatness of nature and the pulse of a city. In French I am what is called a flower of the asphalt. (verbatim translation) JL
Are you native Canadian? I assume so. You have a lovely country. The Canadians I encountered matched the landscape. At present, we in N. AL are enjoying the gift of Canadian weather, even a bit of snow.Political correctness is difficult to achieve. So many common expressions are politically incorrect, but we who are sometimes offended must give the speaker the benefit of the doubt that he does not realize his offense. Perhaps I should have written "his/her?" Do you get my meaning?Of course, eliminating the bigotry is the ideal. As a Southerner who has traveled the US extensively and who lives in a very cosmopolitan area (believe it or not!), I have encountered bigotry even against Southern Americans. I assure you that many Southerners possess the same trait in spades. I grew up in this area hearing the expression for irreversible loss as "going west."I contributed to the deleted thread, but I do hope I offended no one. Perhaps my attempts at sly humor did that, but it was not my intention. I haven't met the human yet who does not possess some quirk which can be joked about or despised. Joking is my preference. And I value my own eccentricities. Others should value theirs. When employed, I had several black co-workers who used, in a joking manner, insulting names for white folks. I can't recall the opposite happening. There were very good reasons for that behavior. We all understood the situation. Perhaps everyone who enters the Knots Forum does not quite understand.Cadiddlehopper
Caddid
Winter is our main export this year. The Canadian parliament decided that it was time to increase our exports of our greatest natural resource to the United States.
Let me share a story with you.
My dad, long passed, was a bigot. He didn't much care for anyone that was different than he was. In fact, he didn't like anyone not from his home town. Once in his home town, he didn't like anyone that came from the other side of the river than ran through this town...and once on "his" side of the river, he didn't like anyone that was not from the neighbourhood he came from. Once in his neighbouhood, he didn't like anyone not a part of his own clique. I miss him greatly, but I do not miss his bigotry.
It seems so simple to get along, yet, people have a way of complicating things and these very same people are able to justify their viewpoint with reams of paper and unstoppable verbiage (almost rhymes with garbage)
As far as the events of yesterday...and before...if they will serve to heighten the awareness of us all to the power of the written word, and the power of the internet, then that will be a good thing. Contrary to what we all may think, sitting alone in front of our screens and our keyboards, what we write evokes feelings in the people who read what we have to say...and we are not anonymous at all. Each and every one of us has a persona on line and an influence on the world and the souls there with us. (like a huge technological collective consciousness) JL
Hey Jeanlou,Regarding, "winter was our biggest export," it reminds me of a song -- I think from Felix Leclerc, or maybe Gilles Vigneault, "mon pays, ce n'est pas un pays, c'est l'hiver." I probably didn't get that quote right, either. I actually know a ton of Quebecois tunes (I play the accordéon diatonique) but very few lyrics to songs, since my French is so poor. But I love winter, and I love the people of Quebec! We are neighbors in snow!
-Andy
Andy
That was Gilles Vigneault singing ''My country isn't a country, it's winter''.
Are you an Acadian, or do you come from the western side? JL
Going south isn't geographical in it's strictest sense. North is up, south is down. When something goes south, it's failing, unsuccessful, gravitating towards the lowest.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
IIRC, Matt said he only skimmed the thread and won't have a chance to really get into it until Monday because he wouldn't stay late on a Friday night. If he actually dos read more of it and can see the whole picture, he may react differently.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
highfigh
If you look at the time stamp you will see that Matt posted his apology to Rich at about 07:30 this morning. He says he had at that point already read all the strings associated with the fiasco of yesterday. I am pretty sure that he had as rough a night as some of the others who were preoccupied by what had happened.
This string will die its own natural death in the fullness of time, like all the others, and from what I have seen so far, it is still doing a job.
After all, now I know that Andy plays the squeeze box, so he can't be all bad. :-) JL
Hey Andy, did you ever think of building one yourself? I mean, how hard can it be?..a couple of pieces of wood, some material, a few reeds, some buttons, I am sure you could do it all using only hand tools...:-)
Hey JeanLou,I'm a Yankee, in Vermont, and the only French blood I have in me is from Alsace -- German speakers. However, I've cherished the time I spent in Quebec learning to play the accordion from a master.
I have indeed thought of building diatonic accordions -- it's an ongoing project that I started some time back. There is a lot to learn because these instruments are built with skills from many different crafts, and perhaps a bit of magic as well. The workworking part of the accordion is a perfectly airtight, mitered box.
-Andy
Andy
I was kidding a little about building your own diatonic accordion, but I am sure it can be done. Like any musical instrument, there must be some very critical aspects to the job, but what the heck, everything can be built. The first one may not excite the masters but the second one might. I am sure that there is some excellent documentation out there on the net and in print form... JL
Matt,
I don't think it's necessary to take any action at all. Block me if you feel the need to block anyone.
This community seemed to have been getting along just fine until I questioned one of its treasured assumptions. It will go back to getting along as soon as I am gone.
It would be nice if I would be allowed to leave without people throwing verbal bricks at my back for twenty messages as I go, as was done previously.
Riverprof
Good Morning Rich,
I'll begin by apologizing for singling you out in that discussion. I took your advice and read through the entire discussion, and two others that appear to be related to the back and forth that escalated over the past week. If I could do it over again, I would have addressed that post to several users.
Let me explain my reaction because I feel that it represents what a great number of people feel when they come to Knots for the first time or even occasionally. If you read your post in a vacuum (which I did), without reading all of the others that incited it, you will see that it was mean. As it turns out, several people were just as mean. But that is neither here nor there.
While I support everyone's freedom of speech, sometimes it comes at the expense of newcomers who read this stuff and decide to never come back again. That goes against everything Fine Woodworking is trying to do with the Web. My job is to encourage new people to join and learn about woodworking.
Matt Berger
Fine Woodworking
Hi Matt,
Just wanted to drop in a note saying that I appreciate the degree of moderation you do. It's a tough job--I certainly don't relish it.
Take care, Mike
Matt--AMEN!
Billy B.
Hi Matt,I poke my head in here occasionally, albeit less often these days, as well as two other forums (forae) on a semi-regular basis. The other two tend to self moderate pretty well, but do get out of hand occasionally. I must admit that this behaviour is easy for me to deal with, just means that I don't poke my head in the door for a while.Here's another moderator's way of dealing with a similar issue.
http://woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showpost.php?p=455583&postcount=22
Hope it raises a smile at your end, even though it's not Taunton's managerial style.Best regards,eddie
You're right, and it's a shame. Two rediculous threads, with loads of accusations by the OP, and the Knotsheads, as a collective group, run the guy out of town. He came in looking for a fight, and got more than he could handle. Then, when the going got rough, he grabbed his bat and ball, and ran home, deleting his cyber trail along the way.
We've been covering this too much in recent days. Banishment, cyber politeness, and the like. I like the Knots alot more in the older days when the community would police itself. Oh, well! It seems that we have been time warped to 1960's Moscow. SSSSHHHHH!!! Be careful what you say!
Personally, I don't come here to talk about dovetailing. I come here for the occassional brou-ha. It must be time to move on. If you're riding west, I'll ride with you. Ha.
Jeff
Edited for Lataxe
Edited 2/3/2007 8:53 pm ET by JeffHeath
I don't know why this is so hard to figure out. If someone goes into a room full of people they don't know, it's a good idea to listen to what they say in order to determine their line of thinking. Walking in and just saying whatever comes to mind will almost always get the new guy a new one if what he says goes against what the group has already said and continues to say. It's easy enough to search for that and a little groundwork would have avoided the situation completely. I can't believe this thread has gone on for as long as it has. Let's move on with our lives and talk about the things this forum is about (I used to think a forum like this was supposed to be about common interests and getting information). Nobody needs to go. We just need to think about what we've written before we hit the 'post' button. Four of five million years from now, who's going to know the difference?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I like what you say:
"I don't know why this is so hard to figure out. If someone goes into a room full of people they don't know, it's a good idea to listen to what they say in order to determine their line of thinking. Walking in and just saying whatever comes to mind will almost always get the new guy a new one if what he says goes against what the group has already said and continues to say."
I just can't understand why the "victim" has taken umbrage-he is way too sensitive. I believe that all points of view are valued here-atleast by someone .The fact that River Prof hardly conforms to my expeiences of Professors is neither here nor there- but I think it is unfortunate that he has left feeling bitter. It would have been better to put his lecturing experience to work and have "students" coming to him instead of him going.
.Philip Marcou
Thanks. I'm not sure what he does- his profile shows Arts/Entertainment. Either way, if he wants to stay and/or post, he should.Maybe it's the full moon that's getting to all of us.I also want to modify what I wrote before to: "what the group has already said and continues to say as well as how they think and feel about whatever the topic is." Just talking doesn't matter if no thought is involved."I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 2/3/2007 5:16 pm by highfigh
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
while we're on the subject, give it the old college try and cut it one more time!
Is that a dare?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
there's another thread here about the accuracy of tape measures...perhaps yours is just out of adjustment... :)
What? I only let the tape slam into the case a few hundred times and when the end ripped out the rivets, used some wire to hold it on after I trimmed the end. Is that so wrong? I figure that being within an inch at 25' is close enough.Yes, I'm kidding. It wasn't just ANY wire, it was a paperclip.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
funny, have you ever chopped off the end of a tape measure and started at 2" while thinking, of coures i'll rememeber to account for the cut off? i have and i don't remember that well!
Nah, if it gets chopped off, I replace the tape or get a whole new one. I'm not going to take the time to fix one unless the only thing that happened is the tape came off the spring..
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Jeff & Rich,
Hoi, ye lads! Naa sulkin' from yews either!!
Anyway, you must stay to amuse me and also to teach me that proper woodworking knowledge concerning planes, chisels and even dovetails.
Of course, if you want to exchange some verbals for fun, because you are fearful that your testosterone is fading away with age, I'm yer boy. Now, about your foolish fear of biscuits and unnatural love for the scuttle-legged gadrooned objects.....
Lataxe, who does not want to be lonely.
PS It's "brou-ha-ha", surely.
Lataxe
I will second all that, if you will allow me to do so without actually having to repeat what you said. What frightens me is that I can understand it...just don't ask me to say it out loud. :-)
Let's get the guys and gals back in the fold. There must be a few feeling a little bit sheepish, but that is all ale under the floorboards. JL
Lataxe
My final post. Just wanted you to know I changed the spelling. As always, you were correct. It's brou...............
It's been fun.
Jeff
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