Before you buy a Festool consider…….
Before you buy one of these tools, consider this:
1) They are excellent tools, generally better than the competition.
2) They are expensive, you make the trade off…….
BUT….what I really dont like
1) Festool controls their dealer prices, they are extremely strict.
2) All of their consumables are proprietary
This means:
1) You get few if any discounts for any reason
2) You are stuck paying insulting prices for their accessories and consumables. Check this out before you buy!!
3) This practice means your stuck with what they offer when you should be able to go to quality aftermarket consumable suppliers for cheaper and often better technology products.
Still, as I said, they make fine tools. Still I will not buy one until they loosen up, “Fein Tools” finally did with their product line, they are made in Germany and are as good as Festool, check them out first.
Replies
OH NO, here we go!
Doug
Let me say this about that <G>................
A few years back (before Festool came to the US market), there was considerable (and I think justifiable) whining about the general decline in tool quality. All of the old line brands were falling to the conglomerates, who in turn seemed to be shaving their quality down to meet price points demanded by the big box stores.
You didn't need much market savvy to realize that a substantial niche at the high end was literally being abandoned by the traditional tool makers.
Metabo was the first to see this, then Fein and Hilti, but Festool was the most effective in building a line of tools (and marketing them with great skill) specifically targeted for this high end niche.
So what's the problem?
As woodworkers, we are given a choice of tools across the price spectrum -- from the cheapest kind of crap to items that carry a price that will take your breath away, and everything in between.
BTW, I think you're wrong about the consumables pricing for Festool.
Their sandpaper, for instance, is about the same price I used to pay for premium H&L discs for my other sanders. And I purposely looked at the price of the loose tenons you need for their new Domino machine, and found they were only slightly more (per piece) than Porter Cable biscuits.
Moreover, I doubt if it will be long before other companies start to produce generic equivalents for the various Festool consumables.
It has been explained in these forums why Festool is able (legally) to control prices, and I don't like it any more than you do.
But personally, I appreciate having a real choice amongst the tools I buy. Some of the Festool items are worth it to me, and some are not -- but I get to decide.
And so do you.
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"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
What an entrance!
Bravo and welcome.
Could you please quit beating around the bush now and tell us how you really feel?
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
oldbeachbum, are you sure dejavue73 hasn't been here before?
He, or I suppose she, could be on their 73'rd Knots sheet stirring alias, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Check please...............
Jeff
Greeting Sgain...
Doesn't take Scotland Yard to note a same day sign-up.. first post and a strong statement from a first time poster on guess what subject? The bait is out and attractively presented. I suspect the boat will be loaded with "fish" in a very short period! ha.. ha...
Regards...
Sarge. jt
I love my the Festool machines and treat myself once a year to an upgrade from other brand.
Discounts are forbidden, true, but your dealer is free to give you freebies with the purchase or perhaps give you some gift certificates that you promptly hand back over.
Consumables; My dealer has sandpaper from another brand, that I think is the original manufacturer and identical to the Festool marked paper. Also jigsaw blades are generic.
Festool controls their dealer prices, they are extremely strict.
You get few if any discounts for any reason
They aren't unique in this regard. Saturn does this with autos and actually established their pricing practices based on market surveys. One of the biggest beefs heard from car buyers was finding out after the sale that they could have gotten it cheaper elsewhere. Not being able to find discounts certainly impacts the buyers pocketbook but also means they dont have to waste time shopping for the best deal - there's only ONE deal. I'm not sure what other tool makers do this, but Festool isn't blazing a new trail with this policy.
If you build it he will come.
Deja,
Given your criteria on which tools to buy, I'd recommend that you stick with Craftsman. Sears always has good discounts. Also Harbor Freight.
:-)
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Deja:
What you seem to be whining about is that Festool go to great lengths to not be "Walmarted". Your initial two propositions sum up many things in life from Ferraris to Festool. After all, you get what you pay for.
"1) They are excellent tools, generally better than the competition.
2) They are expensive, you make the trade off......."
Here's the bit that isn't logical:
"BUT....what I really dont like
1) Festool controls their dealer prices, they are extremely strict.
2) All of their consumables are proprietary"
It cost money to engineer good tools and they need to make enough profit to cover R&D. Say what you will about the Domino, it really moves things forward and is a great new innovation that will take a bit of time to catch on here because the US market is so conservative (which I'm guessing is why Festool didn't launch the product here.)
If you want 40 year old designs, made cheaply and engineered to meet a price point, you will find them in your friendly, local big-box retailer.
Meanwhile there is a growing market that appreciates Festool's products.
And, why should we care about your subjective views on pricing?
Hastings
The smart thing to do is to ignore nonsensical posts such as the original post here. Obviously a set up to generate a lot of name calling and furious responses. I wouldn't even give him the pleasure of a reply. Let this guy go peddle his wares somewhere else.
Lee
Wow, you guys can get a bit pissy. Isn't this an open forum? He paid his quarter the same as you have.
He is stating his opinion. Same as you. He's as entitled to his as you are to yours. If you really wanted to ignore it you would not have posted in the thread.
Ease off, folks. We are all here to learn, share, relax and have a little fun. Let's start over and play nice.
Now, my Chevy is better than............;0)...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
Oldbeachbum et al.I concur.Other than some great information and the relating of meaningful WW experiences, one of the best elements of the forum is the IGNORE feature. (Unfortunately, this note will likely not get seen, for that very reason. Oh well.)IMO, jim
Beach Bum,
I'm not against anyone having an opinion. I'm skeptical of a person with ZERO POSTS BEFORE THIS who drops out of nowhere to open up the same old stupid a$$ can of crap that has been rehashed over, and over, and over. If the post had been started by anyone with a handful of posts and more than, say, 25 minutes of membership in the forum, you wouldn't have heard a peep out of me.
My point was not to stymie anyone's freedom of speech. The point I was making was that this is a highly suspect attempt to get everyone bashing each other. Check out festool in the archives. You will see what I am talking about. And there will be no need to "ignore" this guys posts, because they will be over as soon as they start. Funny he started a discussion and has not replied to anyone?
As always, I respect your opinions. I just don't think this time we agree. A freindly handshake if I came off on the wrong foot....
Lee
Point well made....it looks to me like the new guy hadn't searched the old stuff and didn't know about all the fuss over Festool in the past. I figure that the reason he hasn't posted again for an answer is the posts following that were a bit abrasive (from his perspective maybe) and that drove him away. I hope he posts again so we can see what his reaction is, but I don't really look for it. Maybe we could have been nicer about it, but then again it is still a sore spot for a lot of us in the past threads. Just my opinion.....
There is only one e in dejavu !C.
Don't be tu suree, and try to u's the spell chek.
Et b'en quois, bouffi, tu doute de mon ortographe ? C.
No, you're mistaken. The second "e" is silent.
Vu stands for seen, vue is either sight or the feminin of seen.
The expression is "dejavu", already seen.C.
So what's that got to do with the fact that Festoole makes and markets Ferraris (and locks in the price)?Please try to stay on subject.Just my opinion.
The fact that the original poster doesn't even know how to spell his name properly should mean something, no?
Or not.C.
Sorry, but when one takes a name or title, he has the prerogative to spell it the way he wants and it is right. Just because it is not the common spelling doesn't make it wrong.
Beachbum,
You know what the say--"On a quiet night you can hear a Chevy rust." Now on the other hand, my Dodge (MOPAR--Mostly Old Parts And Rust) ad nauseam.
By the way, you look really masculine in that collar!
Stay happy and balanced. We need you to keep us on an even keel.
SteveThere are two secrets to keeping one's wife happy.
1. Let her think she's having her own way.
2. Let her have her own way. President Lyndon Baines Johnson
What an amateur attempt at $hit disturbing. Frankly I’m more than just a little bit embarrassed for you.
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It’s common knowledge that in order to achieve maximum potential in a Festool bashing thread you must also reference EZ Smart. Come on this is trolling 101 stuff…you can do better than this.
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Maybe you should try something simpler, possibly a heart felt recommendation of a flamboyantly unsafe woodworking practice.
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Maybe a rash generalization as to how expensive tools are the temptation of the devil himself used to keep woodworkers from developing rudimentary tool maintenance skills.
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Of course you could fall back to the tried and true discussion of how users of power tools have no souls, that’s always good for a couple of hundred posts.
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If all else fails you can always resort to a post on SawStop. No opinion is even necessary with this one you just have to include the brand name in the subject of a post and sit back and watch the flames fan themselves…you really can’t miss with that one.
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Don’t worry, with a little luck and a lot of practice you’ll get there, just keep trying….
It’s common knowledge that in order to achieve maximum potential in a Festool bashing thread you must also reference EZ Smart. Come on this is trolling 101 stuff…you can do better than this.
No more ez smart.
They moved out of the Guided Systems/shootingboards.
David
Interesting thought about how Feestool controls their prices. As it just so happens the Supreme Court has just agreed to hear a similar case in which - “When a family-owned retailer in Texas lowered prices on women's fashion accessories, the manufacturer cut off the store's supply.” The store is arguing that the manufacturer is fixing prices by not allowing them (the store) to discount prices.
The fact that the Supreme Court has agreed to hear the case makes one wonder how it will turn out. Who knows? Feestool’s ability to control retail prices may be coming to an end.
I agree with the supportive discussions about the cost of producing quality tools, no one is forcing you to buy them, etc.However, I feel strongly about free markets and that price fixing is always wrong. Our laws seem to be inconsistent if not peculiar in that regard: one day you'll read about a successful suit against such vendors or manufacturers; then the next day you try to find a discounted price on an iPod--good luck.I have to hope the comment about the convenience of price fixing was tongue in cheek. And maybe the best advice thus far has been to try to bundle Festool purchases with non-Festool items at discounted prices.Certainly the market does work to a degree. Outlet Tools in Atascadero CA has an annual sale with vendor booths that is quite popular. I could not help but notice that the two Festool guys had nothing to do but talk with each other most of the time.IMO, jim
Whoa, I leave for 24 hours and you guys go crazy, I didn’t mean to start a civil war here……. or did I ;-()
My comments to some of you:
9619: How did you know I was really a harbor freight closet man!!! YES
Hastings: You da man, don’t talk to me about engineering and Ferraris, now your in my world Ferrari makes an outrageous, but unfortunately a poor quality automobile. (Now thems fightin words for some folks) Engineering, you don’t think 700.00 (new Domino) is enough to pay for their development engineering? Just so you know, it’s not the engineering that is costing them the money, it’s the brand marketing.
What’s the justification for (2) dust filter bags at 20+ bucks must have something to do with the square root of the particulate matter divided by the antimatter.
Lee: You posted after all ;-)
Old beach bum: I see we share common roots, I like you already!! Did you see that cobra at Barrett Jackson go for 5.5M!! Festool is better engineered though, faster too!
Lee: You are correct, I should have let it go with the post history on the subject, but I wanted to make another point and didn’t do a very good job of it. I’ll try again at the end.
Citrouille: How’s that A380 coming? I spalled it that way bekause the correct speling was taken in another foram and I like to use the same nam in all foruns where I pist.
Actually, I just harassing you guys; the point that I want to make is that they make a great high end product and it is arguably worth the money they charge. I want the people that have to save and scratch to get one of these tools to know that there is a recurring cost of ownership that is higher than they might anticipate. IMHO this is unnecessary on their part and I am in a position (unrelated industry) to know about such tactics and strategies. As for the price fixing or what ever they call it; they can sell their products at whatever price they choose, I just don’t like it when they threaten the retailers over discounts, theirs something fundamentally wrong with that, even if it is within the law.
To think, all this from a guy that buys 250.00 Japanese chisels
"What’s the justification for (2) dust filter bags at 20+ bucks … "I guess this comment is about the consumable being outrageously priced. What dust bags are you talking about? The C22 Dust collector bags are 5 for $26. I guess you mean main filter elements which are 2 for $22. But these are not changed out every time you empty a bag.I wasn't going to get in on this, because I think we should let it die. But I gave in to temptation. I'll bet the dealers don't have a lot of markup and the Festool policy keeps the playing field level for the local distributors who have to compete with the mass retailers on the internet.Regardless. If you are losing sleep over this one, call your state representative and ask them to pass a law against it. They are not breaking the price fixing laws. Many companies mandate minimum pricing policies. Saturn for cars, Vita-Mix for blenders, and Festool to name a few. They all produce a premium quality product.You didn't have a bad experience with Festool, so why are you starting a crusade to injure them by attempting to sway others away from their products which you readily acknowledge as superior?
Okay I give up....wasn't bashing. This board is just a bit to touchy for me. It's just one persons opinion, take it for what its worth, pass if it bothers you or engage if you have some passion. But to diss it lends no value to the discussion.I'm going back to my shop......
You state Festool is not breaking price fixing laws, yet they tell their retailers that they will pull their product from the shelves if the retailers chooses to cut a deal. Go out on the net and check the long and jadded history of price fixing. Black & Decker got stung many years ago (in the 60's) by not permitiing discounting of their products. Yet established commercial customers of supply houses routinely got a 10% discount at the end of the month on their invoices because of their large monthly purchases. And that included Black & Decker products. B&D fought it and lost. The final "fair trade" laws disappeared from the books in the late 70's.
Festool is a fine product and the retailer should be allowed to sell it at whatever price they want - including giving it away as a reward for large purchasing volume. Festool can easily maintain prices - just like Hilti - by selling ony through their own factory stores. Yes even the Hilti products sold at HD are really being sold by Hilti distributors.
Our free market system works well when everyone participates. Festool needs to decide what it wants - price controls through its own sales system or free market enterprise through our consumer purchasing system. It's only a matter of time before a retailer is guttsy enough to push the envelope and take them to court.
Good thinking and verbal facility. Thanks!The retailer is likely hamstrung by low margins, me thinks. If so, economics support the status quo, and retailer guts alone may not suffice in foiling the machinations (rather, monetary sacrifices will be necessary, and what would drive that?).I really don't care what Festool does, but the situation is interesting. Perhaps the margins are good, or maybe the retailer is practicing wishful thinking about future Festool product demand.Curiously, while at the local tool outlet, I have never (never) seen anyone standing in the Festool area.Hilti at HDepot is another mystery to me. There seems to be an unjustifiable amount of shelf facing allotted. I was amused to find that the Hilti rep there readily admitted he knew nothing about construction. His previous job was also inside sales . . . at PetSmart.
I agree with all you said. Right now it's a win for everyone except the buyer. The retailer gets his margin and the maker has control over product income. And Festool is smart enough to build proprietary accessories into their product line - to wit, the new portable mortiser uses Festool tenons (yes you can tool up and make your own but I doubt anyone will do it).
In the small town where I live, there are two major German manfacturing facilities and my family knows some of the German nationals on assignment here. And they love it because consumer goods are much cheaper than Germany. They come with long shopping lists and they end up hosting their German relatives and friends for shopping visits. What Festool is doing is what they are used from their home marketplace.
On the short term Festool will do fine with its current strategy. But eventually they will cave in to economic pressure for our large marketplace - Saturn did (yes you can get discounted vehicles), Maytag won't admit it but you can get discounted Neptune models and if you buy enough anchors from Hilti, they will give you a hammer drill and/ or electric hammer. Only a matter of time.
First of all, Price Fixing is still illegal.However, I understand your anger with companies that establish retail pricing. A retailer ought to be able to determine his pricing. With respect to what Festool and others are doing, the retailers love them for it. At least with these products, they don't have to worry about a buyer nickel and diming them to death. And for the person who spends $20,000 or so with them, they can structure the deal to make it sweeter for the buyer if they want to.I don't see Festool, or SawStop, or Saturn or Vita-Mix preventing that. As far as I know, all retailers are on equal ground. My local Festool distributor pays for his inventory before it sells. I don't imagine Festool can pull an invoice to see what they retailer is selling it for. I know with a few manufacturers, their policy is minimum advertised pricing. Someone can show them an ad, they cannot show them an invoice.I'm curious: Do you have evidence that Festool "tells their retailers they will pull their product from the shelves if the retailers chooses to cut a deal."?Price fixing laws are complicated. There are so many companies implementing very similar pricing policies, that lawyers would have jumped on the class action suit bandwagon by now.All that said, I still agree with you — it's frustrating as a consumer to hear a retailer tell me he is contractually obligated to allow the manufacturer to set the pricing of his merchandise.But look at it this way. Perhaps Festool gives a better price to a retailer who orders 100 units per month than the local hardware store who orders 10. Yet the local store can still attract customers because there is no advantage in ordering from the bigger guys. This also prevents people from going into the local store and trying out the equipment and getting educated by the local retailer and then going online and buying it for $60 less.We still benefit, because I can walk into a local store, learn about equipment. and do business with them without paying a premium for it. Furthermore, if I choose to sell one of these tools used, they hold their value very well. The way I look at it, if I keep it for life, and if I truly am paying a premium because Festool doesn't discount, that premium is negligible over my lifetime.
Edited 3/26/2007 12:56 pm ET by Cincinnati
The only evidence I have is the sales folks I know at Woodcraft - they said Festool (probably through corporate) has said no discounting or they will pull the product. I'm not angry over this and as I stated, both Festool and the retailer are winners right now, so why should they complain or hire a lawyer simply to lose money. As the economists say, if the market place is efficient, this will correct itself.
Festool has the "high end" market so they may not be as deeply involved as say Black & Decker whose earnings are down due to the housing slump. But I have a hunch that someplace out there, a good customer (read thousands a month) of some industrial supply house is getting that Festool below retail. It's bound to happen and no one is the wiser.
Festool could audit transactions of their tool sales but in retail, you always have "shrink." The Woodcraft I frequent in the suburbs has a massive Festool display by the front door. Whose to say a "drugee" didn't pull up, run, run in and grab a $600 mortiser and drive away in their stolen car. It happens all the time at HD, Lowes and other big box stores.
I find it curious that people complain about the loss of jobs in North America to Asia, the decline in quality of tools and goods because of the imports and the greed of the corporate world that sends their jobs offshore. Yet when a company has pricing rules for it's distributors to ensure their products sell at a price that gives them a profit while still researching and developing new and innovative tools, at the same time paying it's workers wages they can live well on and raise their families with, they get dumped on. If Festool embraced the "American" business model then it wouldn't take very long before one and all would be talking about the good old days when Festool made great tools. Just like Delta, Powermatic, Porter Cable, Dewalt, Stanley and countless others were remembered for. Sometimes unchecked capitalism isn't all that great in the long run. When I need a new tool in the future because one of my American (Mexican/Chinese) ones have died, I'll look at the Festool if for no other reason than the guys that made it are not considered as expendable.
Deja,
IN order to prevent a deja vu, I feel compelled to close this thread to further postings.
If you feel like learning more about the community's opinions on this subject, I suggest you search the Knots archive. You will find plenty of hours of reading material to slog through.
Matt Berger
Fine Woodworking
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