I work in an office and am looking to woodworking as a sanity check. But I’m going crazy trying to get simple lumber that is flat and true. I’m sure I need a planer or other power tools (more power.,..) but no one around here offers instructions for getting lumber true for cabinet parts, e.g. styles and rails, etc. The books at library and from Taunton Press are great for assembly, but the work looks ugly at the joints.
Any advice from any of you evening pro’s out there on how a real beginner can get started.
Tools so far, Craftsman table saw, miter saw, drills, bisket joiner/saw, and usual handtools.
I’m looking to work on picture frames, simple tables, chests, etc.
Thanks in advance !… dac
Replies
dac,
So, seduced into thinking that woodworking is gonna help you keep your sanity, huh. Poor, deluded fool! Welcome to the asylum!
Seriously dac, you are facing the problem that everyone who works with wood has to deal with. There are no sources of truly flat wood. Some sources are better than others, but whatever you get is truly a raw material no matter how careful the preparation before it came into your shop. As you have already realized, you MUST have truly flat and square wood to do any good work.
The 2 basic power tools for truing your lumber are the jointer and the planer. The larger you can afford, the better. The jointer is used to dress at least one edge and one surface flat. From that reference edge and surface, the other edge (on the table saw) and surface (in the planer) are made flat and a uniform distance from the reference, which results in the actual true dimension of your material.
Get a book on jointer technique to learn about removing cup and warp. Many times boards must be cut shorter and more narrow before removing the side to side (cup) or end to end (warp) curvature on the jointer to avoid reducing the thickness too much.
A 6" jointer is the minimum size that will get any useful work done. An 8 " is better. The price goes up geometrically with the size. There are many planers on the market under 15" for under $500. They can do decent work. But many feel that anything less than 15" is a waste of money and the price point of a 15" is about $1200.
Once a board is edge jointed, you can achieve a true opposite edge at specific width on a good table saw. Using a 60 tooth carbide tipped blade will give an edge about as good as the first jointed edge.
With true and square surfaces and edges, boards can be cut to length true and square. There is nothing like accurate stock to promote good jointery.
You need to know how to set up your table saw for absolutely accurate (square) ripping and cross cutting. The jointer also has to be set up absolutely square.
Of course everything I've described can also be done with hand tools, but that's an entirely different kind of madness. Power toools are the best way to prepare lumber. Hand tools, for finish work (I'm gonna catch hell here for that statement).
In addition to these tools, it sounds like you need to get ahold of some books on basic techniques, or some courses. I am partial to "Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking," The Taunton Press, but there are many others.
Rich
Edited 10/11/2002 9:16:29 PM ET by Rich Rose
Thanks for your welcome to the asylm... so now I'm in the market for some additional power tools.... hope the old slogan still works for my wife, the one that goes, " ... well , if I don't get the_______ tool, then all the other purchases are, well worthless"... Hmmm....
dac,
Oh, you have SO much to learn. Your method of justifying a piece of equipment just brings on that narrow-eyed, icy stare. You don't want that!
Listen up, now. The way you buy a new piece of equipment . . . you NEVER mention the real price. What you do is describe how THAT tool is going give you the ability to build (select any one: entertainment center, dining room table, kitchen cabinets, rocking chair, baby cradle . . . etc., etc., etc.)
For the cost of the tool and a couple bucks for wood your wife is going to get that family heirloom.
Why, the piece of furniture "from the store" is many, many times the cost of the tool, alone. So you're really SAVING a ton of money, getting the finished piece of furniture for a song, and the tool FOR FREE! Get it?
Don't get me wrong, you really have to produce after using this argument. Blow the deal once, and it won't work again.
"Honey I can build our new king-size bed for just pennies more than the $2300 cost of that new cabinet saw I want. Gosh, the wood is only another 50 bucks. We'll have a new bed for less than the furniture store wants and I'll have a saw to make all kinds of other great stuff, too."
"Yeah, right. In your dreams, Buckwheat! That's what you said when you bought that 20" planer for $3000 to make our dining room hutch that's still not built."
So, don't blow it!
Rich
Edited 10/12/2002 3:13:45 AM ET by Rich Rose
dac,
I sure don't consider myself a "fine woodworker," but I have been working with wood for a long time and I have a masters in forestry. The other day I finally got Tauton's book, "Understanding Wood," by Hoadley. I wish I'd have gotten it 20 years ago. Because of other reading I haven't done anything but pick it up, thumb through it and read a couple of pages here and there at a time from the thinking chair, but I would highly recommend it to anyone, especially those just starting out.
Don
Hi dac, welcome to world of WWing madness! It's a much more pleasant insanity than others we encounter day-to-day. I'm not a pro (yet) but with Dave's words ringing in my ears, I'll plunge in anyway.
Rich's post is so darn good, I'm bookmarking it for future reference when beginners post with similar questions. I will add a little to it.
First of all, I'm so glad he recommended getting a book to read. I've seen a number of posts lately from beginners using powerful and inherently dangerous tools, who obviously haven't done any background reading on the monsters. By getting a good book on each tools, or a good generalized power tool book, you'll be safer, more self-sufficient, more accurate and probably happier in the long run.
I have a good-sized library related to the various tools I use and the techniques I hope to master, but I found a book recently at an auction that I think is an incredibly comprehensive, practical and useful book on power tools. It is by R. J. De Cristoforo (well-known author) and it's entitled Complete Book of Power Tools. It may not be published any longer, but it's well worth seeking out.
If the prices of the planers and jointers Rich refers too are just too much for your budget, do not fear! A Delta 12-1/2" planer (the one-speed model) is available for $260 if you shop around, and it'll do a fine job for hobby work, kitchen remodelling, etc. Many people find the price difference between a 6" jointer and an 8" jointer to be rather prohibitive. Most of those people find that a 6" works pretty well for most work. Grizzly makes an 8" jointer that's under $800 with shipping, if you can't meet the $1100+ tag on a Delta or Jet 8"er.
If you're going to build items with stiles and rails 'n such, you're going to need these tools. Although a straight edge can be put on a board with a router or a tablesaw, a jointer will, IMO, do it faster and better. I get pretty darn clean edges with my tablesaw, but the jointer puts them to shame. And of course the jointer will flatten those slightly "off" faces on the lumber you buy too, which no other power tool can do as efficiently (planer theoretically can do it with a sled and wedges and such, but what a pain).
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Yea you make keep your sanity but after spending all the money for tools you might not keep your wife :) Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
I've picked up some of my best tools as a result of people getting divorced.
Forest Girl do you really use a joiner that much ? I had a small one I sold it I found I could join better on my tablesaw. I have a Forrest blade and I don't think you can get a better edge than that. Perhaps if my joiner had been bigger I could have had better luck.
les
RichBooch,
I was under the impression suggesting Hoadly's book at the beginning of this thread was a mistake for some reason. Thanks for the vindication.
Don
What size jointer did you have? Mine is a 6" Jet. I passed on the little bench-tops after reading comments in various forums. Yes, I use it alot. Can't believe how much of a difference it makes to have flat and square stock! Can't face-plane on my tablesaw, and have no interest in spending the time it would take to shim stock up for face-planing on the planer. The first project I did using the jointer was a fence for my little router table. Vuunderbaar! Am in the middle of making a display case for an autographed Cal Ripken, Jr. jersey. The joints are highly demanding -- must be perfect -- the stock is pretty thin. The jointer was, IMO, indispensable. Yep, I could joint on the TS, but I don't think I'd be as accurate or get as good results. I can set the jointer to 1/64" even. Love it.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG,
Who's Cal Ripkin? ;^)
Jr or Sr?
Don
Don, slow down! I really did put "Jr." in my post. As much of a dear as I'm sure Sr. was, his autograph just doesn't have the same Wow! value as that of Jr. Am building the case for a customer/client who's been collecting BB cards for 30 years, actually goes to the Mariner's baseball camp and schmoozes with all those ball players and execs. I saw the jersey last week, and it's very, very nice!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG,
I assumed as much, but I did miss the jr. I guess when you put the jr. with jersey, the early signs of old timers showed its ugly face! Don't know which now: 8^) or 8^(
Don
I completely agree with Rich Rose on flat and square being the starting point, and with the 2 tool list: jointer and planer. However, you don't mention economic limits. If they are severe, then you can live with a planer only, but need to learn how to flatten a board with the planer, which won't happen without a jig. Before I had a jointer, I would but the rough stock on a piece of flat sheet goods the width of my planer. MDF is fine. Lay the board on the MDF, and place and attach wedges everywhere the bottom of the stock does not touch the MDF. Put a stop on the front of the MDF thinner than the stock. Run the entire piece through the planer until the top is flat, take it off of the jig, flit it over and using the now true surface as the reference, plane the other side. Time consuming, but inexpensive.
As to the need for a straight edge, several possibilities. Attach a straight edge (wood is fine) to one side, use it against the fence, and rip. Remove the straight edge, flip it, and rip again. You now have a flat, square board.
Builing an anything without flat, square stock at the beginning is a real pain.
I'm surely getting the notion that board prep is step 1 in anything worth while... thanks to all who posted suggestions (well, except for the suggestion of pipes and tobacco... not very PC here!)...
I appreciated the suggestion to check out tech schools, etc.. but none seem to be offered in the area.
So. armed with suggestions from your experiences, I'm off to the library and/or book store for more reading material. I had already bought Andy Rae's book on Furniture and Cabinet Construction and a couple books as advertised in FWW on joinery... but they never described how to get those straight boards to start with. Then off to scout out local Sears for thier equipment (or maybe eBay)..
--- and to my original goal to "have fun" and unwind... the advice "Practice - Practice" --- makes a lot of sense !!
Bye for now..
dac,
Don't start spending a lot on money on machinery, only to find out that you still aren't doing it right. Keep reading and practicing, but concentrate your efforts on developing your skills using hand tools. They force you to slow down, take your time and think before you cut. They also teach you about the nature of wood and the way joinery works. Although not recommended by most physicians, I also recommend buying a nice Dunhill or other good pipe along with a pound or so of a rich tobacco without too much latakia.
Jeff
Jeff,
James Krenov, probably the most passionate advocate, not just of hand planes, but of wooden planes in the known universe, described the reaction of a visitor to Krenov's shop.
"Oh, you have a jointer!" (and other power tools including a table saw, band saw, planer, drill press and horizontal mortiser)
Letting the visitor's shock and shattered "true belief" settle down for a moment, Krenov replied that of course he had a jointer. Why should he break his back and drain all his energy on tasks (preparing lumber) that were far better suited to machines? He said that he had a finite amount of energy in the time he would be permitted to spend on this Earth and he preferred to use that for the more satisfying tasks of refining his work, not the grunt labor part.
He's right.
Rich
dac
Everything has been covered well by Rich and others. When you make your purchases, always mention to the spouse that it's ON SALE. There is a certain weakness for anything On Sale whether you need it or not. Ha.... Also mention if you have these tools that can make all these wonderful things for Her, she will never have to wonder where you're at...
Headin' to the shop.....That's where you'll be if you make the purchases.. GOOD LUCK!!
sarge..jt
And NEVER mention the equipment as the reason for the purchase. In fact, don't mention the equipment at ALL! It's the piece of furniture that you have a burning desire to provide her with. The new whizz-bang tool is just an incidental part of the process of making the furniture happen.
Rich
Dac
When I was starting out I took a six week WW class at the local tec school and was glad I did for I got to use some of the tools that I do not yet own. But now I know something about using them. I enjoyed it a lot and got to make a piece of furniture and got to see how other pieces of furniture were made by the other students. The most important thing I learned IMO was using safe work habits in the shop for each tool. I think it was money well spent.
Another good source of woodworking information I found was at the WW shows that I have attended. Those people are there to sell WW tools, machines and excessories that can be used with those machines. They will gladly answer your questions and show you how to use their products.
I want to attend every one within driving distance. I learned as much at the first show I attended as I did in the WW class. But it was kinda different because I learned about using jigs and accessories for tools like the table saw and router. Last show I attended (Cincinnati Convention Center) they were showing how to make raised panel cabinet doors using only a TS and a router using their accessories. I was impressed and cant wait to get their router setup they had.
Don't ever forget about safe shop habbits while using power tools.
BT
I'll second bt's suggestion - find out if a local tech school runs a "beginning woodworking" course or something similar. I did that and it was a very good investment of $200. My local tech school sometimes runs a "course" which basically lets you bring in your own materials and make whatever you want, using their equipment - and with an instructor to help out if necessary. Might be a cheap way to find out what the major power tools are capable of (and not).
Have fun and mind your fingers.
Graeme
You don't need power tools and you don't need a thousand ++ square feet of shop space. Don't worry about what Krenov has in his shop. Most likely one of his students or shop laborers keep it all in tune for him, and most likely he owns the finest stuff that Europe produces.
You can build fine furniture with hand tools and with a relatively modest investment to boot. You can work anytime you want to and not disturb your family or your neighbors with loud power equipment. You don't have to buy the most expensive hand tools made, but the trade off will be a little more time spent initially tuning your tools. However, you have to do most of the tuning procedures only once.
If you stick around here for a while and read the posts you will notice that most people here spend time collecting, tuning, and fiddling with largely inferior power equipment instead of making furniture. There are an inordinately large number of questions about jigs, fixtures, link belts, table out of flat, how do I use my new dovetail machine, tablesaw fence out of alignment, is Delta better than Jet, what size jointer should I buy, yada, yada, yada, questions on this board. Let this fact tell you something.
If you can resist the power tool - jig - gadget - bug you will be a lot better off in the long run. Trust me, I went through that stage and wish I had back all the time and money I spent fiddling with power tools.
"most people here spend time collecting, tuning, and fiddling with largely inferior power equipment instead of making furniture. There are an inordinately large number of questions about jigs, fixtures, link belts, table out of flat, how do I use my new dovetail machine, tablesaw fence out of alignment, is Delta better than Jet, what size jointer should I buy, yada, yada, yada, questions on this board. Let this fact tell you something"
Do you work at being offensive or does it just flow naturally? Most people here honestly try to help without offending others. Differences of opinion are a welcome fact of life. But you seem to think that it is your right to sit in judgement and not only disagree in the most offensive manner but also to attack the abilities and opinions of others in the most personal way.
Take your self-appointed, misguided, narrow mind somewhere else. You stink the place up every time you get your little digs in either at individuals or in this case "most people here" under the guise of participating in a "forum."
Rich
Rich, it flows naturally to answer your question.
I think that woodworking with inferior power machinery is almost guaranteed to be less fulfilling than other alternatives. I intend to make that point whenever I have the opportunity.
If you don't like it, kiss my arse.
The title of the thread is "Beginner needs to be straightened out" I believe that I gave a blunt, but viable alternative to the Delta, Jet, Sears Craftsman circle jerk (and that IS what it is). If I can shock just one person out of believing that they have to have a two-car garage so full of corded equipment that they can't move in order to build nice furniture then I will have succeeded.
FWIW, I've owned examples of all these brands, so I speak from experience - unfortunately most of it was a miserable experience.
Edited 10/13/2002 2:22:28 PM ET by CHASSTANFORD
The point that you make, whenever you have the opportunity, is what a pompous, rude, intolerant, misinformed, narrow-minded arse you really are.
Rich, who really cares? We've had guys like you on this board before - the self appointed etiquette police and captains of the 'let's be nice' patrol.
Big yawn, brother.
"etiquette police" ???
Man, you haven't a clue. The problem is, you don't know how to express an opinion without simultaneously demeaning someone else. It has nothing to do with etiquette. Stew in your own juices. You really aren't worth the time.
Apparently I am.
What's demeaning about pointing out the obvious? An inordinatly large percentage of the posts on the board have to do with equipment, and mostly "what brand should I buy" and "now that I've bought it and it appears to be junk how can I fix it" questions. Who exactly have I torn down? I've mentioned no one in particular, but if the shoe fits then wear it.
Sure don't want to get in on what you two have going, but I do have this to say. Hand tools are fine for the hobbiest, or someone who needs not depend on the trade to make a living, but for those of us who do depend on the trade to earn a living, hand tools aren't viable. I understand there are those who make a good living using hand tools, but the reality is there are not enough customers to support many using these techniques. A fair return on the hours invested is just too much for most to see the need for 100% powerless tool built. I've read where some will say they can pull out a hand plane and x x x x x x in the same amout of time as x x x x x . Nonsense, a power planer will blow their time keeping away.
Don
Don C. explain to me, if you will, how you flatten a large tabletop (say 20" wide) after you've glued it up. I assume that you won't suggest to us that it's properly flat after it comes out of the clamps - we all know better.
Do you have a 20" jointer? Do you have a 20" planer? A large drum sander? Just curious about your methods of work.
There are craftspeople who do make a living with hand tool only shops. Clearly they're in the minority, but they do exist.
Hey Chas,
Just thought you might be interested in a amplification on a previous anecdote about JK. One of the first major hurdles in the woodworking program at the College of the Redwoods, so I'm told, is to take the plane which you have made and, using it and only other hand tools, produce a 12x12x1 block, flat, 4 square, and in plane.
Yeah, JK uses a jointer. So do his students. But their foundation, as almost all makers of fine furniture (to cop yur phrase), is in hand tools.
People seem to think that buying power tools widens their horizons and woodworking options. I think it's the opposite. A good foundation in hand tools lets you do anything.
Scott
Thanks for that amplification Scott. I think that the earlier anecdote regarding Krenov's use of power equipment might have left one with the impression that he could not accomplish the work with hand tools.
If my memory serves me, Krenov is an excellent hand tool woodworker (from a European tradition) who decided to add power tools to his shop, which is/was his right to do so.
I would imagine that James would be the last guy who would consider a hand tool only woodworker out of his mind.
With that said, of all the tasks in a shop, jointing a board with a hand plane is probably the one that most favorable compares in terms of speed to jointing with a machine. But, if Krenov thinks his power jointer is peaches then that's cool with me.
when jim krenov started out, he had only a bandsaw, which can do lots of great stuff. his point was it was an enormous amount of work to get one SIDE and edge of a rough plank trued up to begin accurate bandsawing. he made a lot of early pices with just this saw. after his jointer/thicknesser, i believe his next tool was a tiny benchtop table saw. his power tools are very basic, functional machines, and he aquired them over a long period of time, as he saved, etc.
i use hand tools and power tools a lot. my advice would be to start with the basic handtools essentials, and add a bandsaw. see what kind of work you like to do, than plan on adding power slowly. you can but lots of beautiful wood for the price of a cheap tablesaw.
It neither broadens nor narrows your horizon. It's just another option, another way to acheive the end result. You guys can argue endlessly about hand tools versus power tools. It doesn't amount to a hill of beans. TOOLS IS TOOLS. Each tool you have and know how to use is another option.
I won't argue that a good foundation in hand tools won't help. Of course it will. But a versatile woodworker should know more than one way to make a board 4-square. The principles are the same whether hands or electricity power the tools.
If you are more comfortable using hand power, then by all means do so. But please don't try to force your ideas on everyone else here. Some of us are more comfortable using electricity. That's our perogative. Some of us stand with one foot in both camps, freely able to use either method, and our choice is made according to the nature of the project.
Let us be, please.--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
What you are failing to realize is that hand tools have a limitless capacity. Corded tools have very defined capacity limitations and moving beyond those limitations usually involves buying larger equipment, or breaking down and using hand tools.
CHASSTANFORD wrote: What you are failing to realize is that hand tools have a limitless capacity. Corded tools have very defined capacity limitations and moving beyond those limitations usually involves buying larger equipment, or breaking down and using hand tools.
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Chas. I'm not failing to realize anything. I am one of those with feet in both camps and I love using both types of tools.
What you don't seem to realize is that nobody really cares about your insistence on hand tools only. If you wish to use only hand tools, the use them, but please don't act like you are some kind of magical guru of fine woodworking because of your choice.
The so-called limitations of which you speak are not real. They are only in the mind of the user. Truely imaginative people will find ways to transcend limitations regardless of the tools they are inclined to use. Power tool users are finding new ways to use their machines every day. And, if they have been grounded in the use of hand tools, they still hold in reserve the capacity to use hand tools where those are more appropriate to the job at hand.
Go back and really read my last post. I clearly stated that beginners should start by learning hand tools, as I did, myself, but I also feel that they should not limit themselves to only hand tools, unless working that way happens to be a particular interest for them.
And if that is so, then they should refrain from trying to limit others who have no such interest. Woodworking, like ham radio, another of my interests, is big enough for many different approaches.
No single approach is right for everybody. Would you have someone interested in woodturning use only a treadle power lathe?
Lighten up a bit, Chas, and enjoy the fellowship available here for all. Don't grouch at those who don't see the world just as you do. There is information and friendship to spare to be found for those who welcome it. Grouches tend to wind up isolated and bitter, and you are better than that, aren't you, Chas?
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
Edited 10/15/2002 5:50:45 PM ET by Lee
Edited 10/16/2002 2:44:10 AM ET by Lee
"What you don't seem to realize is that nobody really cares about your insistence on hand tools only."
Please do not include me in your over general statement. I care about C. Stanford's hard-line attitude. I think that it is of benefit to this forum that someone insists that hand tools are the best way to go.
"....hand tools are the best way to go"The original way of sanding a floor was by using a "Bear" which was a heavy block of wood wrapped in burlap to which was attached a rope. This was dragged backwards and forwards over damp sand scattered on the floor.You don't think they'd have preferred a drum-sander?? -- or the guy with an adze wouldn't have thrown it aside in a flash if offered a planer-thicknesser?
The man working in a sawpit, pulling on a double-handled saw all day MIGHT have said "No, No, hand tools are the only way to go" but somehow I doubt it.People use hand tools for all sorts of reasons; economy, expediency or simply because they enjoy doing so but to insist that hand tools are 'best' -- or that the library is a better source of information than the internet, for that matter -- is flying in the face of reason and commonsense.
Edited 10/16/2002 12:58:33 AM ET by IanDG
IanDG wrote: The man working in a sawpit, pulling on a double-handled saw all day MIGHT have said "No, No, hand tools are the only way to go" but somehow I doubt it.
-------------------
On the other hand, Ian, remember the story of John Henry, the steel drivin' man. He died trying to prove he could hammer his drills better than the steam drill, and became a folk hero. ;-)
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
Edited 10/16/2002 2:55:50 AM ET by Lee
Edited 10/16/2002 2:56:33 AM ET by Lee
Lee wrote: "What you don't seem to realize is that nobody really cares about your insistence on hand tools only."
jeff responded: Please do not include me in your over general statement. I care about C. Stanford's hard-line attitude. I think that it is of benefit to this forum that someone insists that hand tools are the best way to go.
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I apologize, Jeff. I guess "nobody" was a bit too all inclusive. I thought a bit on that as I wrote it, but I had to scoot just as I finished it, so I didn't have a chance to review and revise as I usually do.
You know, I really don't have a problem with an insistance that hand tools are the BEST way to go (and this seems to be the approach that you use), but I DO have a problem with an insistance that hand tools are the ONLY way to go (this is the path that Chas seems to have chosen). I don't wish to be unpleasant to anyone here, but neither do I appreciate being harangued.
It's the dogmatic approach that I object to, not the opinion held.
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
Chas. I'm not failing to realize anything. I am one of those with feet in both camps and I love using both types of tools.
Of course what you are FAILING TO REALIZE is that everybody can't afford the luxury of a nice selection of power tools AND hand tools. Re-read the post that started this thread. I still contend that power tools present real limitations that realistically cannot be worked around without resorting to hand tools, or purchasing another power tool. I do this for a living, and I've done it with power tools, and now hand tools. I've run into limitations in my power equipment that I found very frustrating. When I got sick of absurd workarounds and ridiculous jig building, I took up hand tool use. It was truly an Epiphany for me.
Given the history of woodworking and what was accomplished in the eighteenth and early nineteenth century with hand tools only I still contend that, taking everything into consideration, hand tools are the best way to go.
I had a power tool shop - Inca 12" table saw, OMGA RAS, shaper, jointer, planer, routers, sanders, the whole shebang. I don't miss any of it a bit.
Chass,
Can you work profitably using only/mostly hand tools? Perhaps another way to phrase it would be "Are people willing to pay the price?"
What I'm finding is that after I have all the machinery and benches set up in my shop, I've barely room to move. The idea of having room for TWO work benches as well as all my tools and lumber and assembly area with plenty of room to spare is rather attractive, as is the idea of the absence of all the noise and most of the dust.
Jeff
I can answer your question with a resounding YES. If anything, I'm more efficient. The additional time spent prepping stock has been more than offset by the time saved from not dropping off blades for sharpening, tuning power equipment, building jigs because of equipment limitations (although I always avoided jig building whenever I could), etc.
I agree with you that the simple ability to move around the shop should not be underestimated. Rolling machines around all day to work your stock is very inefficient. Endless tweaking of shop layout and building shop storage projects is inefficient beyond a certain point. Standing at a nice, long bench getting work done, with full concentration on the task at hand, can be very efficient.
I'm less fatigued at the end of the day, in fact I'm invigorated by the exercise and by the lack of noise and fine dust in the air. I'm healthier than I've been in years, and I've always been fit and in good health. I listen to classical and jazz music all day without the din of dust collection and machines. I'm telling you friend, it's freaking wonderful.
I enjoy the ability to pare joints to an exact fit quickly and with no fuss and no additional machine set up. I don't waste wood, and time, making test cuts for machine setup. I never worry about whether a bump has knocked a machine out of tune. As long as I can mark a cut then I can get there. I have about $150 invested in layout tools and marking gauges. They're dead accurate, so the work is dead accurate. The sheer ACCURACY of my work has never been better. Parts fit better, cases glue up in square more readily.
I have a large shop left over from my machine days, and I've got so damn much room left over it's unbelievable. I could work in 300 square feet and be perfectly comfortable if I had to.
I could go on and on...
Edited 10/16/2002 9:28:05 AM ET by CHASSTANFORD
Edited 10/16/2002 10:10:31 AM ET by CHASSTANFORD
Chas,
Is this a hobby or is this a primary job that pays the mortgage and puts the food on the table?
Don
Primary job. Don, I build stand alone furniture - no kitchen cabs. and bulk case goods. I do a few door jobs a year too. Attempting to handle a church door commission a few years ago with my power equipment set up at the time was the main impetus for me changing to hand tools. Using machines was incredibly awkward on the long, thick stock the design called for. I literally would not have been able to produce the doors without using hand tools, or some really screw-ball machine workarounds. I chose the former and have essentially not looked back since.
Edited 10/16/2002 9:51:26 AM ET by CHASSTANFORD
Chas,
You are extremely fortunate to have the control you do over the work you do. Most of us don't unfortunately.
Don
I appreciate it. I got here the honest way - by working my tail off and not veering off course from the way that I wanted to do business. Learning how to turn down work has been one of the most useful skills that I've developed. Most guys don't go out of business for lack of business, they go out of business by taking on projects that they cannot do profitably. I never get involved in competitive bidding situations. I made that mistake exactly twice, but never again. All my proposals are final, I do not negotiate price. Tightwads make lousy clients. You can take that to the bank. You have to make your custom woodworking business more about selling a luxury good than about being a glorified contractor or trim carpenter. Although there is absolutely nothing wrong with those two professions. Define who you are and what you do and stick to it.
As I've said before - I don't walk around the shop with a posey in one hand and a sonnet in the other (another writer's words, not mine). I've chosen to use hand tools because my work is better, I am unlimited in the scope (or only limited by my own skill, or lack thereof) of the work that I can do (other than sheet good projects which I don't do anyway), and I find my days are more enjoyable - less like 'work', although everybody has tough days in the shop.
There is nothing amazing about what I do. My relatively modest success has been a good bit about what I don't do as well as what I do do (do-doo?). :-)
Chas,
Have you completely eliminated power tools from your shop then? I have to admit that I do like my drill press and lathe. (They're both so quiet and work so hard.)
I found a reprint of an old book titled The Practical Woodworker (Ten Speed Press, Berkeley) that was written before the advent of electricity. It's quite an interesting volume. Think I picked mine up at Barnes and Noble. They also have a companion volume called The Complete Woodworker.
I'd like to see some other good reference works, if you're aware of any. Thanks.
Jeff
Yes, I have completely eliminated electric tools in my shop. Don't be so incredulous. It's not that outlandish, although most people think that it is. This unfortunate reality is proof positive that the ad campaigns and the t.v. shows that hawk tools are shamefully effective.
I put together a serviceable treadle lathe in the last six months, although I do slightly miss my Delta 12" lathe.
Edited 10/16/2002 3:04:53 PM ET by CHASSTANFORD
CHASSTANFORD wrote: I put together a serviceable treadle lathe in the last six months, although I do slightly miss my Delta 12" lathe.
Well, that answers my question about what you use for a lathe. But treadle lathes are definately not for everyone.
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
Hi Jeff/Chas,
As well as the two books that Jeff mentioned, see if you can find a high school wood textbook from the 30's/40's/50's, when high school was the start of an apprentice's training and the quality of the kid's work was critical to them. We use one out here written by J A Walton - covers things step by step as well.
Cheers,
eddie
Jeff, I would also say that replacing an electric lathe is not really particularly necessary since turning skill is all in the manipulation of the turning tools when it comes right down to it.
In the interest of disclosure, a machinist friend of mine deserves most of the credit for the treadle lathe that now sits in my shop.
I have a couple of the hand tool books that are currently in print, but not any old out-of-print books. I might try to pick up the ones you mentioned.
One book that I like a lot is Good Wood Joints by Albert Jackson and David Day. The book has a reasonably thorough treatment of hand tool skills but also covers machine cut joints. I picked up three or four little tricks and techniques which were more than worth the approximately $17 bucks the book cost.
Hi Chas,
I too would recommend the 'ten speed press' reprints. Advice on how to do most obscure work using hand tools only. Originally written approx 1910-20 - middle of the Arts & Crafts era.
Cheers,
eddie
I've been thinking about your approach Chas, and it does appeal to me. The sticking point is the rough dimensioning of stock; it seems like an substantial amount of labour with a handsaw to break down large planks to the various components required. For instance, the sawing any quantity of thick veneers must be a bear. How do you deal with breaking down planks - a day on the saw at the beginning of each project? What kind of saws do you use?
Lee wrote: Chas. I'm not failing to realize anything. I am one of those with feet in both camps and I love using both types of tools.
Chas replied: Of course what you are FAILING TO REALIZE is that everybody can't afford the luxury of a nice selection of power tools AND hand tools.
---------------
No, Chas, I'm not failing to realize economic limitations either. I have them myself. That's why all of my power tools are OLD IRON, some going back to pre-WW2. I rebuilt them myself, remotored most of them, learning a whole lot about them along the way.
My jointer, an old Walker-Turner, is only a 6" and the tables aren't as long as I would like, but it does a wonderful job on both edges and faces.
My band saw, also a Walker-Turner, is only a 14" model, but it runs without vibration or noise and makes a very clean cut whether sawing a complex shape or resawing to it's limited capacity (and it's one piece so I can't even put a riser block in it).
My planer is an old 12+" Foley-Belsaw planer-molder-sander-gangripper I found rusting away in a friend's field. It had been converted to run via PTO. I put a new 5 HP in it and it has never balked at anything I have run through it, oak maple, ash, it does it all.
My table saw is an old Craftsman, I'm guessing late '40s vintage. It's getting tough to keep dead on, but I can't afford to replace right now. Maybe early next year.
My lathe is an older Rockwell/Delta, solid with no vibration or chatter. My drill press is old and I forget the brand name but it works fine. I also have a very old Walker-Turner 1/2" spindle shaper that does a fine job within its limitations, an older DeWalt RAS, reserved only for cutoff work, and an older Craftsman scroll saw.
Most of these are mounted on wood stands that I designed and built myself, and none has any problem with excessive vibration, most likely due to the weight of cast iron contained within.
I do have a Bosch 1613EVS router (frequently used in a shop-built router table with fence), a Bosch 9.6v cordless VSR hand drill and a Milwaukee corded 1/2" VSR hand drill for heavy stuff, a Bosch palm sander and a B&D jig saw. These are just about all I have that was bought new, and at this point, all are at least 9 years old, some older.
In hand tools, I have an old Stanley fore plane, a nice set of chisels, a Japanese style dovetail/detail saw, a brace with a set of bits, and several others I won't list here for fear of being too wordy.
Oh, and a near future project plan is to finally build myself a wood plane, most likely several, of different sizes and temperments, something I have been wanting to do for years and have just never found the time to accomplish.
So you see, I'm not as ignorant of the obstacles to fine woodworking as you might have assumed. But enough of that. Let's call a truce, Chas, because you know I actually like you, Oh, I know you're kinda curmugeonly and all, but I really have to admire someone who is actually making a living using only hand tools. And I'd love to see your tradle lathe sometime. Can you attach a picture?
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
Lee, do you use hand tools to work around the severe limitations that a 6" jointer presents?
The old equipment that you have is actually probably better, as you well know, than the stuff being made today.
I've realized I wasn't being entirely truthful about my electric tooling. I do have and use an El Cheapo Sears grinding wheel refitted with the pink wheels everybody recommends. It's easily forgettable because it does its job without complaint. Otherwise I use sandpaper on glass. I know enough about sharpening to get the job done.
No truce necessary since we weren't at war. I've enjoyed the conversation.
My scanner carriage moves about two inches and stops but I'll post a pic. as soon as I can.
Edited 10/17/2002 7:36:37 AM ET by CHASSTANFORD
Edited 10/17/2002 8:26:57 AM ET by CHASSTANFORD
Yes, I know that a lot of my old equipment is actually better than the new, but still, the old table saw is getting almost impossible to keep in tune and I just might need to replace it soon.
I do use handplanes and scrapers to escape the limitations of the 6" jointer but for most of the work I do, it's not a very severe limitation. It's the large panels that can't be dfaced on the jointer, but I use splines to align the glue ups so the reflatening is pretty minimal.
I also do a fair amount of my sanding, what little sanding I do, by hand, as I feel it does a better job overall. I might use the palm sander for the rougher grits and finish up by hand.
I have an old bench grinder that I use very little. I also have a Delta 1x42 belt sander which is used for the rough part of grinding, since it's easier to do a flat grind, and also to change belts than to change wheels on a grinder. I always finish up with sticky sandpaper on a flat surface (my table saw top for now, but I plan to buy a glass flat when I can, from Lee Valley) and polish with rottenstone on a flat piece of MDF. I'm intending to try the new diamond pastes sometime soon, also on flat MDF.
I guess we weren't at war but I was a bit tough on you a time or two, and for that I apologize. It was about the "one size fits all," not about hand tools per se. I'm impressed that you truely practice what you preach and for a living too.
Maybe we both just needed to mellow out a bit.
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
I wish that I had kept my Makita belt sander for grinding plane irons and chisels.
Ultimately the point that I want to make, and I make it too stridently I know, is that I think that I'm the one who has it easy. I think it's the guys (furniture makers) who struggle with today's mostly inferior power equipment that have made it difficult for themselves. When I see a post from somebody who has an inkling that they might want to go the hand tool route then I jump, but perhaps too forcefully.
" wish that I had kept my Makita belt sander for grinding plane irons and chisels."
Better alternative, although it is slow, is a Wen wet grinder. I set aside a day every so often to put a hollow grind on the edge tools. This is a 3 inch diameter stone that runs in water with a 30 cent motor attached to it. It puts a perfect hollow grind on the plane irons & chisels. I just have to lick the edges with the waterstone to make a real nice cutting edge. Downside is the bearings on the grinder are cheap and you can't really bear down on the grinding.
There is so little power that this almost qualifies as a hand tool.
Between that and the Tormec I haven't found much that is easily affordable.
Well, I'm getting by okay I guess. I'll keep that unit in mind though. I really went through several interations of sharpening stuff before I settled on the setup I use now, which is clearly very simple and inexpensive. I tried waterstones and ultimately ended up hating them. They were worthless to me for honing narrow chisels as I was unable to keep them from gouging the stone constantly. Probably just my own poor technique. I think it's easy to become overly obsessed with 'sharp' and the implements needed to get there.
I admit that I am having a bit of trouble getting what I think would be the perfect camber on a smoothing plane iron and then honing the iron from that point. I'm very close, but not quite where I want to be. I've read all the poop, but I just can't quite translate it to the iron. I'm working on a very pedestrian Record smoother with the stock cutter. I don't want to start throwing a lot of money at the 'problem.' I know other irons (Hock replacement) are better, but there's no reason I shouldn't be able to make this one work the way I want it to.
Chas,
The Hock irons are nice - very nice, but the factory ones aren't bad. The iron on my new Record is no lighter than that on my 1910 Stanley Bailey. So long as you've got it good and sharp, and the plane set up correctly, you shouldn't get any chatter.
I sometimes wonder if the Hock and other expensive irons aren't another example of us being talked into something we never knew we needed. The old Stanleys and Records planed a heck of a lot of wood long before the cryogenically-treated super irons came along.
Jeff
I agree and I think that it's as easy, if not easier, for the hand tool enthusiast to get sucked in by advertising and other hype. My Record plane cuts very well, I just need to change the curve of the blade slightly and then be able to repeat the treatment when the iron needs to be re-ground. Obviously this is not the fault of the stock cutting iron, it's due to my being inept at the grinding wheel.
Chass,
Got Garrett Wade's new slow speed grinder last week (impressive, massive.) Wasn't exactly sure which way to go as far as some sort of sharpening jig. They recommended the Fast Track jig. Simple, and relatively inexpensive. Spoke to one of their people yesterday. A small operation that does a lot of tinkering when time allows. (I like that.) Says he's working on a jig for planer knives and a few other ideas as well.
I'll let you know how this works out.
Jeff
chas,
i have had mixed results with cambering irons in the past (especially the standard bailey/record type, being so thin. you can hone away that hollow grind mighty fast,) i think in a large part because i refused to use a honing guide, and because i tried to grind the curved profile. lately i've been using the method described by david charlesworth in his books. using a honing guide (i know, i know) you put pressure on the outside corners of the blade, doing the same amount of strokes on each, then move your fingers in about 1/2", repeat. if i grind my iron straight across, it is easy to read how much camber i'm putting in the iron by looking at the polished bevel. if you don't have a honing guide, he recommends the cheapo little stanley with the narrow wheel.
if you haven't already tried it, give it a shot.
-Kit
Pooch, I have the book by Charlesworth that describes his technique. I'm going to give it a try. I have the Veritas honing guide and I use it with the sp and glass method.
Without a hollow grind I can't do a decent hone on a plane Iron. With the hollow I can polish off the burr easily.
I use 180 grit wet dry paper on a hard surface generally Formica and run the stone to flat while watching college football on a saturday AM.
To hone the edge I just make figure 8's about 5 times then hit the back to take off the burr.
Without the hollow I would be there all day, cause I can't hold the angle either.
Hi Chas,
Reading through posts, just thought that I'd let you know how I sharpen.
I use an USD30 Makita 6" grinder that doesn't vibrate and a USD10 white wheel (Aluminium oxide). By not forcing the grind and moving the plane iron/chisel across the wheel slowly, can grind dead flat blade quickly. Also, don't need the jar of water as the blade doesn't overheat - hottest it gets is about 60 degrees C. When you feel the blade getting slightly hot just stop grinding and cool the blade down by putting it on the palm of your hand.
Have thrown away the toolrest that came with the grinder. My toolrest is a piece of 6 x 2 pine, sawn at 45 degrees mitre on edge and smoothed. Just clamp this to the edge of my grinding bench and move the grinder up to it. Grinder stays where it's put. To adjust the angle of the bevel, I simply raise or lower the 6 x 2. Same thing as you - cheap, simple and foolproof.
Happy to post sketch to explain this if it's unclear and of interest.
To get a radiused blade, two options spring to mind. For me, the easiest is to hold the blade a little looser when honing, and the blade moving sideways during changes in direction while honing will get the slight radius very quickly. Failing this, just linger a little longer on the edges when grinding the bevel and you'll also get the blade radiussed easily.
To get even hone, I was trained to locate the desired angle of the blade on the stone, hold the blade firmly and then lock my wrist in place and put my elbow into my hip. Hone by moving the whole upper body back & forth with the arm locked in a single position. Works well, even if it looks funny.
BTW, I also use only hand tools at home and mostly at work - can't have power tool noise floating through the house and my preference is hand tool anyway.
Cheers,
eddie
Edited 10/18/2002 5:48:03 PM ET by eddie (aust)
I really do appreciate all the advice from everybody. Eddie, do post a picture of your tool rest if you are able.
Cheers...
Chas,
The honing guide you use does make a difference. An article by Charlesworth comparing honing guides just appeared in England's Furniture and Cabinetmaking magazine. His comments are consistent with the details of his book. He likes the eclipse-style guide over other guides for plane iron sharpening mainly because of the narrower guide wheel. It allows for more "rocking", as it were, when point pressure is applied. The veritas "dictates" too much. In American English, the wider Veritas wheel resists point pressure, making it difficult to get the gentle curve your're after. It actually holds the iron too steadily. You've seen the style of guide he's talking about. Garrett Wade offers one for about $10. They're also very quick to set up, with squaring the iron to the guide being very easy. If you get the angle you want, just note the length the iron projects, maybe even write it with a sharpie on the iron, and you can repeat the setup with no trouble.
By the way, I feel kind of sheepish saying so this late in the game, but I didn't think you're earlier comments were offensive. I've seen enough of your posts to understand where you come from. No problem with Rich either. Just don't quite get how it escalated. Anyway, I agree with the substance of what you were trying to say.
Cheers,
Greg
Chas,
As I have no digital camera and about 2 months left until I finish the roll of film in the normal camera, have attached a sketch. Sorry that it's rushed, but the basic idea comes through OK.
Cheers,
eddie
(message 102 deleted a/c picture not attached)
Edited 10/18/2002 10:53:41 PM ET by eddie (aust)
Chas,
I have a 37" Performax. I really not a fan of the machine though, and I don't think I would put the benchtop I am going to build this winter through it. Yep, I'll need to learn more about the use of hand tools. But that really wasn't my point. If I was in the business of making benchtops, I'm not sure what I would do, but it would involve the fastest methodprocess available.
As I said, I know there are those that make a living using hand tools, but they are few and far between, while at the same time, there is usually at least one cabinet maker using power tools in any town of notable size. I just don't see the use of power tools as some perversion of the trade. If what ever task power tools complete could be done quicker by hand, the power tools wouldn't exist. I you could drive a nail with your fist, hammers wouldn't exist either.
Just curious about this. I recently had to put some carved postslogs on the outside corners of a restaurant. To notch a 90 into them to wrap around the corners I used a chainsaw. Wasn't up to spending $500+ for the makita 16" circular saw. How would you have done it by hand.
Don
Don,
If you'd really like to learn how to handle the logs building with hand tools, I have all my grandfather's with which he built several houses. You could borrow them to get a feel for them. You will, however, have to learn the techniques yourself because I'll be damned if I'll ever break my back pushing and pulling on a post saw all day!
Jeff
I build stand alone furniture only Don, but I guess the hand tool equivalent of a chainsaw would be an axe. I imagine that the notch could be cut with an axe and then the surfaces cleaned up (as needed) with any number of other hand tools.
Come on now Rich,
You said in your opening post you expected to take grief for the "power tool" approach. Why would you be so offended now? Personally, I found your over-reaction way more out of place than a suggestion that fiddling with power tools is time consuming...
I can't tell you how many hours I spent getting my jointer knives properly aligned when I got the jointer, or how many hours I've spent taking a dado blade apart to add or remove shims to get the width right. I personally have NO skill with a hand plane, and don't even own one. There are plenty of times I take too much time setting up a jig or figuring out how to mill a pice with a power tool because I just don't know have the knowledge of how to use a rabbet plane (for instance) properly, or how to keep it sharp. I would love to learn how to use hand tools properly!
The knots forum is a place for everyone to express their opinions and share how THEY do something. Try not to get so pissy whenever someone else doesn't agree with you.
Your posts have helped me do things before- when I built my cherry sofa table and posted it in the gallery, you brought up the "golden rectangle rule", which helped tremendously when I started designing the walnut bookcase I'm working on now. Other's posts have helped me do other things, and I'd like to think that even though my own level of experience is still small, that I've helped others here as well.
Can't we all just get along?
Kevin
Kevin,
My reaction had nothing whatever to do with power tools.
It's interesting though, that posts supporting the use of hand tools seem to always be of a "true-believer" fervor with quasi-religious overtones about the thing.
I use hand tools whenever the particular task would be easier to do than setting up a power tool.
"Can't we all just get along?"
Stop it.
Rich,
Yes, we all can can get along quite well, so long as we're all civil and learn to accept and appreciate one another's differences and preferences.
I think it is usually a waste of time to true-up boards with hand planes and cut them with hand saws. Why should I spend ten or thirty minutes doing something that a machine can do in one or two minutes. However, there are times when hand tools are faster, more convenient, or will do a better job than a machine can. The reasonable thing to do at those times is to use the hand tools.
My question, however, is when and how does one acquire the skills to use hand tools? I suppose there are many answers, but I believe the best time is when one is beginning to learn woodworking. Rather than concentrating one's efforts on learning how to use or buy the latest gadget, it seems better to learn the fundamental skills with "fundamental tools."
Those skills and tools being mastered, the beginner is then free to choose those machines that he sees as useful alternatives and supplements to the hand tools he now has, to choose those which are genuine time (and back) savers, and not just the neatest new-fangled contraption being flaunted in the pages of the newest issue of one's favorite WW magazine.
Finally, I think the slower pace of hand tools help the beginner really develop by learning to rely on himself to do the job, and not the tool/machine. While we see a lot of magnificent work posted on this forum, there is a lot of stuff sold at craft shows, etc. that is quite poorly made. Could it be part of this is that the builder has come to rely on the machine to do his work, rather than himself? That rather than the machine becoming an extension of the builder, the builder has become a slave of the machine? The machine seen as a substitute for skills never learned?
Please, don't think I find any joy or satisfaction in trying to rip a board by hand. But realize too, that the person who has spent hours ripping boards by hand is probably not prone to make more cuts than necessary, do any work before knowing exactly what he's going to do and how it will come out. His design and planning will be thoughtful, his work purposeful, and deliberate, and his skill finely honed. Let the beginner first learn to swim, then teach him how to sail a boat.
Jeff
Jeff,
This thread started out regarding preparing lumber, not really as a hand tool vs power tool thing.
Then it was visited by someone who enjoys baiting, demeaning and pontificating without adding anything of substance.
Thanks for a thoughtful addition that very nicely describes an approach shared by many.
If anyone here thinks that I have any aversion to hand tools, that is absolutely wrong. I use my hand tools whenever their use is appropriate, in fact I look for designs that allow me to do as much of the final finishing by planing as possible (I also use my ROS and hand sand where I want to).
I think that some of the best discussions here happen when someone comes on and says something like, "Regarding your recommendation to do X, I find that X is not the best approach, I use Y, and here are my reasons for doing so." No personal attack, no holier than thou attitude. Just honest sharing of opinion.
You presented such a discussion.
I'll take the opportunity to say that, in regard to the use of power equipment such as the jointer, and table saw, (and maybe even the planer), I consider that learning to use them as basic instruments to (fine) woodworking is part of swimming, (right along with hand planes), not sail boat mastering.
I grew up in an environment of hand tools and their mastery. My grandfather was from Europe. My father and uncles learned the craft as they learned to speak. I was taught how to use every manner of hand tool. But as they acquired power tools, I remember the integration of those machines into the general flow and the excitement that each machine generated for its abilities. I never remember an attitude of reverence for hand tools over power tools as has become the fashion in certain "True Belief" groups in the last several decades.
I was taught to use the best tool for the job and I was introduced to each power tool as I grew tall enough to use it. By age 6, I knew how to put an edge on a plane iron that could shave the hair off the back of my father's hand. And I knew that the surface that it left on wood was far better than the job that the jointer did, and was the preferred final surface of a finished piece, if such could be accomplished within the overal demands of the job. But man, let me tell you, the jointers in my grandfather's shop and in my dad and uncle's shops churned out enough chips to fill up dozens of sailboats.
Rich
Rich,
I'd say you have a balanced view of the relationship between hand and power tools. I'd think anyone who makes their living with their tools or enjoys their craft will have a good respect for both types.
BTW, if I can remember clearly way back when I learned basic science, all those devices we call tools (screwdrivers, chisels, hammers, motors, saws...) are machines.
Jeff
Thank you, Jeff, for your "voice of reason." Very well said and I agree with every word.--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
Mr. Rose,
As the "beginner" that first asked the question, I thank you for your input. I've printed it out and have used the advice to start my shopping.. and hopefully, working and creating something for our home and for relaxation.
As for hand tools, I'm shopping and purchasing planes and saws, etc.. but, as a beginner, I think practice on an adequate power tool is the fastes way to gain an adequate level of skill to make something that deserves better than the fireplace.
dac.
dac,
Good luck. PLEASE don't call me Mr. Rose. Rich is fine!
Rich
On the off-chance that you might still be reading this thread that seems to have gone astray......
Speaking from the viewpoint of a professional furniture maker, who has been in the trade for the past 20+ years: If you want to make traditionally based furniture, I think you should pay particular attention to what C. Stanford had to tell you. You will be best off in the long run by first developing traditional woodworking techniques. This means preparing stock, cutting joints, and smoothing surfaces using hand tools. You will soon find that the whole process is time consuming but rewarding in the sense that you are then doing the kind of woodwork that gets you "out of your office," and to a place when things were simpler. If you want to add power to the equation later, then you can wherever it is appropriate to you at that time.
If you want to do woodwork simply to fill your house with more stuff, then by all means do it quickly and get a bunch of power tools. Forgo developing hand methods until you really need them, if ever. You can surface stock quickly and accurately with machines with only modest training and practice.
Please don't get the impression that I think one way is better than another. Personally, I have a shop full of power tools and enough hand tools to make most guys green. I rely on the power tools and jigs and fixtures, biscuits, glue, screws, my arc welder and a whole lot of other things. But, I do not make traditional furniture......mine is very contemporary. When one sees my work they know it was done using machines.......that's the way I want it to be. Yet, because I also put in quite a bit of hand work, the furniture also has the human touch. It is personal and warm. I pay attention to details, the same as one should in any close relationship.
Decide for yourself what you want your work to say, about itself and about you. Learn and use the methods that are suitable.
WOW... I was wondering how to get some advice on how to get started, and I've been interested in the various comments, some helpful, others, well, not addressing my needs from my point of view. I do appricate your thoughts.. and though still thinking that getting things square with power, I do look forward to using planes, dovetail saws, and who knows what. You did hit the nail on the head (gee, I'm starting to use woodworking terms here !) with your advice to work such as to provide enjoyment... that was the point... And with daylight losing time just ahead, there will be time for kicking around in the garage instead of a bike ride.
Could be fun.. thanks.. dac.
I like what you said Chas. Gone are the days when the board had discussions on handplanes, coping saws and what type of tenons to use. You and Sgain arguing about flat benches and Dano explaining how to tune a plane. Those where some of the most informative messages one could learn from.
Lar
Lar, Would you like me to start a new or modified, " Flat workbenches, and other hoary old chestnuts," thread again, ha, ha? Slainte.Website
Sgain, thanks for the offer but no thanks. That one a while back was memorable.
Lar,
You guys are really something else. You don't like the discussions that OTHER people are having? They're not as entertaining? Not as erudite? Not as informative? Not as authoratative as the discussions that used to go on here? They don't meet some other criterion of yours? You yearn for the good old days? When REAL MEN had discussions here? How pathetic.
Hey Lar. Begin a topic that's more to your liking. Contribute something yourself.
Poor baby, Dano's not teaching hand plane tuning anymore? Where the heck do you thing HE learned? By hanging out in an Internet forum?
Need to learn something other than tuning a hand plane? Ask. Or go read a book for crying out loud. But stop whining about the discussions that OTHER people are having. And stop crying that your favorite contributors are not here any more. Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way and grow up.
Rich
Rich,
Your the one with a problem. You don't like what one person says and you get all bent out of shape. I too have not spoke badly of another person and I also enjoy the current discussions but think the ones of the past were more informative. Just a personal view. You seem to be defending your past posts for some strange reason. Let others say there views and don't get so hot about what they say.
Well Lar,
You are absolutely right. Because, y'know what? So many of us get up every day and say to ourselves, we just GOT to make that Knots forum MORE informative for Lar. Please God, let me be informative today. Maybe I can start a thread that will realy, really be up to the par of those old time threads.
But you know what? You guys make it so TOUGH on us! We realize that we really shouldn't just engage in discussions of things that interest us. We need to EDUCATE Lar. We really try SO hard not to be irrelevant and frivolous. But it's SO difficult to live up to your expectations. And you keep bringing up examples of those wonderful old days at the forum. Yeah, those were the days. Weren't they?
Would you please just give us another chance? We'll be better. Honest we will. And you can just listen in and enjoy some wonderful, meaningful, INFORMATIVE woodworking discussions. You needn't contribute anything yourself. Just sit back and judge us. OK? We live for that.
Your servant,
Rich
Edited 10/14/2002 2:59:43 AM ET by Rich Rose
Gee, thanks Rich!!!!
This has been the best discussion since the change to Prospero. I love a good bickering match. With the type of woodworking I do for a living, handtools exclusively would put me out of business. But I do use a good mixture of both. Someday when I can do all freestanding furniture, you bet I'll be doing most if not all of it with hand tools. Thanks for the great discussion, keep it up.John E. Nanasy
For what it's worth, I use the Veritas honing jig and by alternating pressure from side to side have been able to create that very slight radius. In fact, I was amazed that I could do it.
In using the same jig, all I'm getting is a cornered iron, which is okay. I really want the gentle radius across the edge of the iron and I can't get it. This is the golf equivalent of having the yips - I can't sink the foot and a half putt in the shop.
Your standards for success are probably higher than mine!
I doubt that, Mark.
If you want furniture and frames the postings are heading you in the right direction. You can probably tell that there are more than a few ways to approach the notion of woodworking. I hope we can keep ourselves at least civil on the subject.
If you are after a calming experience, try some basic carving projects. You can get into it with less expense than a full-blown shop and the process of peeling layers of wood with a well honed tool is as calming as it gets. (Don't over-expect, here...keep it simple)
Tom
Starting on the cheap is a good approach. Hoadleys book is a great method to figure out how the wood moves and why it does. If you read it well enough you can even understand how to make joints.
Tools,
In order of need I'd start with this list:
VSR drill 3/8"
skill saw 7-1/4"
Bits and blades for above including the screwdriver adapter for the drill.
Table saw. 10" belt driven. Craftsman is fine.(This allows ripping action and edge joining. see below.) (When you get to the refined stage you can use this as your "Dado setup")
Rotary Random orbital sander with dust pickup. Ryobi makes a great cheapie with 5 1/2 inch discs.
Belt sander 3 x 21 inch is ok.
Cheapie drill press. This is the jack of all trades tool. you can use it as a router, mortise, lathe for turning whatever fits in the chuck (metal included)
Router any kind is good but a 1/2 inch collet would be sweet in the long run (allows edge detail on solid wood and rabbet joints in plywood)
Mortising collar and bits for the drillpress. (allows easy mortise & tenon joints)
Shaper. Craftsman makes a dandy for real inexpensive use. Yes it is only 1/2 inch but you can make all sorts of rail & stile assemblies with this. Rockwell has the HSS bits at 8 to 10 bucks each.
Thickness planer. (until this point get the lumber planed at the yard or sawmill. At 10cents a board foot it will take 5 projects to justify buying a 12 inch thickness planer at 400 to 500 bucks)
Jointer.
Radial arm or chop saw.
I don't mean to be down on a jointer but you can do a lot with a table saw and a skill saw. First take the board and plot out the pieces you need. Cut the board into the shorter chunks (with the skill saw). Take a straight edge and draw a line to cut off the points on the curve (upper corners on a smile) Try to make it a straight line. This is the part where you need to anaylze your talent level and make a determination on how to straighten the edge of the warp. Here you can freehand cut with the tablesaw,the points on the smile. You can cut them off with the tablesaw, or the Skillsaw, or a handplane. If you only feel safe doing that then use the handplane. You don't have to be perfect. Now you set up the table saw to use the fence against the now straightened edge. Even if it is bumpy don't sweat it. Run the new straight edge against the fence. You are cutting the bottom of the smile straight. Flip the board over and clean up your freehand straightening. Flip / cut flip/cut until you feel satisfied with the result.
Certainly the jointer is safer, faster, better, more expensive... That is the problem. If you buy all of the tools at one time you end up with a clean shop that is never used as you are always waiting for the next tool. If you have lots of bucks go for it and prove me wrong. However The above list works out pretty well as you can build a garage hang a picture and still do some woodworking without breaking the bank.
As you get old and mean you can spend lots on your toys. til then this approach may keep the family together and starve us scavengers from picking away the tools at your divorce rummage.
Edited 10/15/2002 5:57:51 PM ET by Booch
Booch,
"Hoadleys book is a great method to figure out how the wood moves and why it does. If you read it well enough you can even understand how to make joints"
Hell, if you read it well enough you could teach those concepts at the college level. That book is a treasure. Both his books are.
Rich
Booch,
I have to take exception to some of the items on your shopping list, namely: Craftsman table saw; cheapie drill press; any kind of router; Craftsman shaper; radial arm saw. If a beginner chooses to begin using power tools, which, again, I believe is a mistake, they should be good tools. Poor or mediocre tools in the hands of a trained craftsman are a nuisance; in the hands of a beginner they can be enough to make him quit.
The choice of power or hand tools is a personal decision, but buying poor tools of any type is a bad decision.
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
While here I go again! I take exception with your comments on craftsman. Cheap no, inexpensive---maybe. I've used many comprable competitors products and don't see them as any better or worse when comparing apples to apples. Of course a unisaw to a craftsman $199 ts is not apples to apples. You get what you pay for. I would not advise a beginner to start with a new cabinet saw.
Don
Don,
I'm not picking on Craftsman. I just don't think the quality of their products, which are intended for the hobbiest, is such that one can build fine furniture with them, at least not without a lot of frustration and a lot of good wood going in the scrap pile.
I'd say the same about a cheap hand saw, plane, hammer or any other tool of poor design and/or quality.
Jeff
Kinda absolute don't you think?
I've got them, and started with them. I have better tools now but the essence is that I didn't have the cash to spend on better product. You can buy the entire lot of products I stated there for the price of a Unisaw.
I get wrankled over the negative aura imposed on the Craftsman name. For decades this was only quality tool for the novice / nonprofessional. My father built an entire 1800 square foot house with an 8" Craftsman table saw from 1955.
As any Trade name, they have their good and bad products. (AMF era Harley Davidsons, Jet tools in early days, Dewalt when they sold the "motorized" tablesaws) The fact remains there is a lot of ability in the product as it comes from the department store. Tweaked it can hold its own.
Sensitivity to quality & ability to create, are talents we all develop over time. Realign an arbor, put on a good blade, true the fence and change the belt pulleys to steel and you'd be hard pressed to find much fault with a craftsman table saw. The biggest improvement is when you hook it up to 220volt.
Further, try to remodel your upstairs or a garage by carrying the Unisaw up and down the stairs just once and you'll vote for the Lesser model.
I don't sell any of these tools. Possibly some on this forum do, I look to those recomendations with a jaunticed eye as I do magazine recomendations. The logic is always suspect when advertising dollar could influence the result. Then again, some people may have more money to spend on this pursuit. Whatever the motivation to recommend a set of tools, it is based on some set of assumptions.
My assumption is that this is a motivated dabbler in woodworking who is looking at a long string of bills before he completes his first end table.
I find it admirable to encourage the fellowship and talents of someone starting. Thru even a rough experience, they will learn and value a quality joint. Plus, You start learning how to use planes, chisels and handtools to fix the problems lesser tools enable. It isn't even the tool making the mistake early on, it is the novice's lack of planning.
Someday... I may own that wonder shop. 'Til that point I'm not going to spend my life saving, planning, and wishing. For now I'll continue sanding, planeing, & finishing.
I was hoping for a critique of which tool is sequentially most important.
Edited 10/16/2002 4:00:40 PM ET by Booch
Booch,
I couldn't agree more.
Don
Booch,
I'd be hard-pressed to say which tools were sequentially the most important, but anyone would need the following before getting started:
A hammer, three or four screw drivers, a drill and bits, a few chisels, a good square and ruler, a few saws, and a couple planes. (Bought used or new, we're not looking at too much of an investment.)
I think those and a bit of elbow grease would enable a fellow to build most anything.
Jeff
Edited 10/16/2002 4:28:18 PM ET by Jeff K
Yep, the hand tools are critical. Hammer is the start, no doubt there.
Chisels are important too. (I still have some firmer chisels, bought early, that have yet to turn out a pound of chips. Too heavy for my curent work.) Funny, the Stanley pack-o-three are the first chisels I reach for. I guess they are familiar and I don't feel so bad when they fall to the concrete floor.
Possibly Waterstones? & a grind wheel (you'd be happy to know I only use the manual one. It is the first tool a kid uses in my shop)
As for saws... I grab the dozuki (?) the double sided Japanese saw for most of my hand cuts. Beyond that..?
Rasps, Block, Jack, and jointer planes come next. I've got a strange collection from drawshaves to curved soled hand planes to select from. What would you select as the progression in order of need?
As for drills. I tend to the power version. The brace & bit (I've inherited & bought a couple) don't light my fire. Probably depends on if you are building chairs and have need for a spoon bit?
What do you value & where do you go from there in the manual world? Someplace in here we need clamps.
As for the thread above... This could be nice if we could all generate a progressive list. Some power, some manual, all in a progression that enables the most opportunity and experience with the most (George Bush Sr. word here) Prudent expense.
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