my wife and I have finally bought a house and I get 1/4 of the basement as a shop. I’m planning on buying some woodworking tools, starting with a table saw.
I have $300-400 in my budget for a table saw, maybe a bit more for something special. Through ebay, craigslist and various internet sites, I’ve found a few saws from Delta that look good. The 36-600, 36-675 and TS350. Any thoughts on those saws?
One of the more important things to keep a bit of marital peace is I need to be able to connect the saw to dust collection… beyond that, I’m looking for a saw I can learn on that will hopefully last me a few years.
(also, any thoughts on toolking.com? they seem to have good prices on reconditioned tools)
thanks in advance,
Matt
Replies
for that kind of money unless you can find something on ebay. I myself would look at the rigid ts, it's just under 500.00 in my area at depot for the money it's a good quality saw with a decent fence. Also check out hybrid saws cabinet/contractor grizzly has one pretty cheap that has decent reviews. hope this helps rb
Take a look at the Ryobi BT 3000 its a good saw with a sliding table and its belt drive.
HI Matt - Of the 3 you have listed, the Delta 36-675 is the only full size standard cast iron contractor saw with belt drive and a 1.5hp induction motor, which gives it some advantages over the others. The other two are compacts, the TS350 has a direct drive 1hp induction motor, the 36-600 (which is now sold as the TS300) has a belt drive 15 amp universal motor (much louder). The 36-675 is substantially more machine and has a very good steel T2 fence, so I'd recommend that one over the other two in heartbeat.
The Craftsman 22104 hybrid is currenlty on sale for $399. No motor sticking out the back, but the table is full size, the motor is an internally mounted 1.5hp induction motor with a modern serpentine belt (short and smooth with excellent power transfer), and the trunnions are cabinet mounted for easy alignment....very stable too. This style of saw has gotten extremely good reviews from mags and owners.
Your local Woodcraft may have a Jet 708100 on sale for $399 for Father's Day too.
The full size saws with induction motors have several advantages...stability, larger work surface...especially in front of the spinning blade, longer term reliability, are quieter, tend to have better fences, tend to hold alignment settings longer, and have many standard features that allow upgrades and aftermarket add-ons later. Like many others, I started with a compact saw (36-600), and went to a larger saw. It's cheaper, safer, and less frustrating to start with the full size saw....I'd seriously consider the advantages of a hybrid, but a contractor saw will do well to. Find one you like at a price you're comfortable with. With a good blade and accurate alignment, you should be all set.
Edited 6/4/2006 10:04 am ET by Scotty_
thanks Scotty (and everyone else!)
OK, 1st, Craftsman... I can only find a 22114 on their website for $679 - there's a good chance I'm doing a bad job of using their website, but I didn't see a 22104.
So Jet 708100 ($399 at Woodcraft) vs Delta 36-675 ($459 at Toolking)? I'm not terrible worried about the $60 price difference...
Looking around websites a bit, I don't seen any mention of either saw having anything to connect to a dust collection unit... if there's not somewhere to plug dust collection "tubing" into the saw, what's the best way to do it?
Thanks again for your help everyone - I really appreciate it! (I think a miter saw's the next purchase - I imagine I have a ton of posts to dig through here for that one!)
Matt
Matt - AFAIK the 22104 is being discontinued...go to a store to see one. It was listed in the Craftsman Club flyer at the $400 price. If you like it, negotiate with a manager...bet you can get one cheap. The Jet at Woodcraft has an internal motor which saves space....I suspect the T2 fence on the Delta is better than the Jet's. DC usually takes place underneath using a fitted tray with a 4" dust port on these types.
"Looking around websites a bit, I don't seen any mention of either saw having anything to connect to a dust collection unit... if there's not somewhere to plug dust collection "tubing" into the saw, what's the best way to do it?" Dust collection on a contractors saw is a challenge, to say the least. It can be done though. They are open underneath, and don't come equipped with a DC port. You can either make your own "plate" to go across the bottom, or you can buy a pre-made, molded plastic one. (Click here)
This Jet saw is a new design, I believe. Motor is mounted differently, somewhat different drive system? Is there any way for you to see one in person? at a Woodcraft, for instance. I'm always a little nervous about a new design, but the sale price on that saw is certainly attractive! The fence is a critical component, and I'd want to make sure it's reliable.
The Rigid saw from HD has moved up in my "respect" list based on info from JWW (John White, FWW shop manager). If you search, you can find some posts on that saw. The downfall might be customer service down the road -- their record there seems to be spotty.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 6/6/2006 12:10 pm by forestgirl
ok, I've been to Woodcraft and seen the Jet 708100 and Sears for the Craftsman 22104. I couldn't see much difference (other than price, I didn't get a chance to haggle with the Sears Mgr, so it's >$500 at the moment).
Speaking to the chap at Woodcraft, it seems building dust collection for the saw is going to be the best idea - so I'll have to figure that out pretty quickly!
Forestgirl, your "click here" didn't come through, would you mind sending the link to me again?
mike4244, luckily the previous owners of the house put walls around the workshop areas - heck, they've even left me a few workbenches! I do need to put a door in, but that shouldn't be terribly tough. Any thoughts on the area between the top plate of the wall and the floor? there's a small space between the floor joists... I imagine I need to plug each of those holes with some plywood or something?
hookem, I've emailed the Shop Fox people to find a local dealer - looking forward to checking out one of these saws with built in dust collection!
Well, crap, I didn't go back and put in the link, and now I can't find a page for that fitting! It's a 14" plate-with-a-hole that slides inside the contractors saw under-blade area, has a 4" fitting to hook the DC up to. Everyone carries it (Woodcraft, Rockler, etc.) but I'm having trouble finding it on their web pages. Someone here will help?
Edit: Click here (really!) and look at the big square one that's leaning directly on the white hose. That's the one.
That being said, you could probably make your own. :Next step is to block off the back. Harder with a contractor saw than with a hybrid. I simply used foam-core board (like you get in a crafts store). Planned to use it as a template for a plywood version, but the foam boards worked just fine, thank you. ;-)
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 6/8/2006 8:34 pm by forestgirl
Making your own shouldn't be hard at all. I made a box around my under-table router, with a 4" port for DC. Just used a cheap plastic connector, screwed it to the box. Easy, works great.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Well, crap, I THOUGHT YA WAS ####lady!
kummell,
I brought my shop into the basement a couple years ago, and have been happy with the decision. Definitely go with some sort of dust collector, a must in the house, else you and the wife will be choking on dust. Believe it or not, my $140 1HP Delta dust collector is more than adequate. Put the Woodstock International trash-can cyclone in line, with a 20' hose and quick-coupler...perfect for a small shop. The contractor's saws accept a plastic square dust port in the bottom which does a pretty good job. Also buy fittings for your sander, which is where lots of fine dust comes from.
One of the $400 contractors saws should give you plenty of years of service, I bought the Ridgid three years ago and love it. I like the fence that locks at the back rather than the front, seems to be more sturdy when cutting large plywood sheets. I think they've changed the fence since then.
Shop Fox - good consideration. I have their 15" planer and am very happy with it...lots and lots of power. Plenty of capacity.
Good luck
I used to blow my circuit with large hardwoods untill I rewired saw to 220. Also a forrest blade helped. There is a co-op wood shop in Lexington and Worcester and maybe other places out there to consider
thanks everyone! Finally everything's aligned and I've cut my first wood - new stair treads for our basement stairs.
FYI, for the Jet JWTS-10 / 708100 - I loosened three trunnion bolts that connect to the table - these had to be loosened from the front of the saw.
Thanks for the advice on basement shop set up, too... I've found a few affordable dust collectors on Craig's List - hopefully something'll work out. Anything'll be better than sawing and the vacuuming up with the Shop Vac afterwards!
Any thoughts on those ambient air filters? Something like this: http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?cat=Bench+Power+Tools&pid=00921329000&vertical=TOOL&subcat=Dust+Collection+Systems+%26+Attachments&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes
I've seen 'em from Delta, too.
Yep, got one in the basement...those were the two requirements for the basement shop: dust collector and air cleaner.
The dust collector does the bulk of chip and airborne dust capture. The air cleaner is more for keeping the dust down in general, and not distributing it all throughout the house. Just run the air cleaner whenever you are down there; sanding, freehand routing (no table with DC hookup), table saw (dust escapes above the blade), etc.
However, I have the Jet model that was about $290 on sale. I think it is a little bigger, but my shop is 600 ft2.
Kummell, I'd suggest some brand other than Craftsman for an air filter. Specifically, JDS, or at least Jet or Delta, one of the companies that has made them forever, and will be there down the road for parts and customer service.
Several years ago, I started researching these filters, and JDS seemed to outperform the others across the board. I know (before someone jumps on me with both feet) that magazine reveiws are iffy sources of information, but when a machine consistently comes in on top with several different reviews, it's a good bet there's a valid reason.
Look at the difference in specs between the Craftsman and the JDS 750ER. I'm a bit suspicious of Sears' claim of 850 CFM with such a small motor (1/8 HP); the JDS is 1/4HP and they actually provide watt info; nothing from Sears to compare. JDS provides filtered-air CFM info. Also, there's no indication what kind of filter that Sears 1 micron inner filter is. Is it a bag filter?? or just another furnace filter?
Note that the 750ER has a remote and timer, very handy but not crucial.
Air filter topics lead to pretty "vigorous" discussion around here, so we'll see what happens. But I, for one, would move right past that Craftsman unit. The JDS unit would run you around $320 at Amazon. Not sure about other sources. There are 58 reviews at Amazon, might be worth reading.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 6/19/2006 10:29 pm by forestgirl
thanks for the info, FG!
As for the big dust collection unit, I've found a 2HP Grizzly model on Craigslist, hoping to check it out in the next few days... Otherwise someone has the Delta AP400 on CL, too.
I'll probably wait a bit on the ambient air unit just for budget constraints, I want to get the sawdust off the floor first!! I'll definitely hunt around (and ask for advice here, of course!)
Thanks again!
Matt
Hi Matt - I've got the Grizzly 1029 2HP DC. It's been a great machine but wanted to let you know that it's a true 2HP motor and will require 220v or a 30 amp 110v line.
OK, so I bit the bullet and went for the Jet 708100 (JWTS-10) from Woodcraft. It's 90% assembled now, too!
I'm trying to adjust the blade to make it parallel to the miter slot, but I'm not having much luck. The instruction manual for the saw talks about getting the 90 and 45 degree bevels set, but nothing about making the blade parallel.
I bought the miter saw book someone mentioned earlier - it says to loosen the bolts that hold the trunnion to the table - I can't seem to find the right bolts. I called Woodcraft and they said it was the screw at the back of the saw (I can't find the words to describe the screw I'm talking about - I think the other end where that screw connects is the thing you turn to lock the blade into place.)
Anyways, sorry for the length of the post - if anyone has experience with this saw, I'd love to hear your experiences...
Thanks again!
Matt
I'm not sure how this one aligns, but Woodcraft's staff or Jet's Tech service should be able to help.
As Scotty mentions, the Woodcraft people should be able to walk you through adjusting the blade to the miter slot, but on the other hand the saw should have left the factory with this setting accurate! How far out is it??forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
it's out about a tenth of an inch from the front of the saw to the back of the saw.
That's out by enough that it needs to be adjusted in. Assuming the trunnion alignment is similar to a contractor saw... Is there an opening at the back of the saw that allows you to see the motor? (might even be a removable panel) At the back, just below the cast iron top, do you see something that resembles a ~ 6" to 10" diameter semi-circle hanging upside down with flanges that attach to the cast iron top? If so, there should be another similar part toward the front....these are the trunnions. There should be 2-3 bolts attaching the trunnion to the top. Those bolts need to be loosened enough to allow the trunnion carriage to be tapped into alignment....there are detailed instructions around the web to guide you.
" bought the miter saw book someone mentioned earlier - it says to loosen the bolts that hold the trunnion to the table - I can't seem to find the right bolts. I called Woodcraft and they said it was the screw at the back of the saw (I can't find the words to describe the screw I'm talking about - I think the other end where that screw connects is the thing you turn to lock the blade into place.)"
I missed this paragraph the first time around. Can you get back into to Woodcraft, find someone who knots what they're doing, and have them show you on a saw how to go about the alignment? Problem is, if you loosen the trunnions too much or shift it too much, you can create problems you're really going to regret. One of the reasons we buy from a brick-and-mortar store instead of Amazon is to get this kind of customer service, so hold their feet to the fire and get some help!
I did a quick Google trying to find pictorial instructions, but didn't have any luck. I have a couple books, but that doesn't do you any good, LOL.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
If you look at page 33 in the manual the exploded view shows the trunnions and the bolts you will need to loosen, 3 bolts on each trunnion.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Ditto to Scotty's recommendation to get a "real" table saw with an induction motor. Since you have a preliminary budget of $400, buying anything else is a waste of money -- you'll be desperate to replace within a year, two at the most.
A Rigid, Delta, Jet or the new Craftsman (Scotty mentioned) are worthy of consideration. Get the best fence you can! Be wary of used Craftsman saws in the classifieds -- they're undoubtedly not the new "ZIP Code" hybrid, but older contractors versions.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 6/4/2006 12:57 pm by forestgirl
I wish I had done what you are doing... ask for advice. The ts was my first purchase. I did not research nor spend enough. Since then many things have been added to the shop. Each of which I have researched and invested in. Soon I am going to get ts that's quality will be a strong foundation to my shop. My advice plan to wait a little longer on the next tool and invest in a good saw!
good luck
Hi Matt,
I think I'd invest at least a part of the money you have earmarked for a table saw on a woodworking class as a qualified institution of higher learning or through a club or similar entity.
This investment would prepare you to use a table saw safely and effectively, allowing you to get the most out of the tool while avoiding injuries and using machinery you probably won't be in a position to afford for awhile.
You will also be exposed to people and equipment who can help you make an informed decision; networking with other local woodworkers is a great way to find bargains on quality used power tools.
If I could borrow Marty McFly's DeLorian and travel back several decades, I'd certainly try to convince the once-youthful Jazzdogg to follow the course I've just described <g>.
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
awesome idea - most of what I know is from reading FWW and watching the New Yankee Workshop! I've been in a small rented place for the past 2 years finishing up my grad degree, not a lot of room in our 600 sq ft for tools!
I see there are a few classes at the Woodcraft store near where we'll be living, I'll definitely carve out time and budget for classes - thanks jazzdogg!
Matt
You're welcome.
Where are you situated?
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
we're in the midst of moving from Hanover, New Hampshire to the Boston suburbs... such a painful process!
Kummell - I have a Grizzley dust collection system with all the 4" tubing, etc. that you would need. If you want it, you would have to pick it up. I would sell it for $175 . I live on Cape Cod. Let me know. Ralph4
You might Also want to do a bit of reading as well.I would highly recommend reading Kelly Mehler's Tablesaw Book as well. He covers setup, safety and use and even discusses some of the important jigs. I took a cabinet making class at a local BOCES, and while it was a good class, the instructors discussions of safety weren't in-depth enough, or rigorous enough IMO. (the saws there had no splitters, or guards) I've learned alot more about the safe use of tablesaws since then by reading informative works by Mehler, Jolpin et. al. I'm no expert, but i'm alot better prepared now than I was after taking a class...
Mehler's or Tolpin's TS books are a great idea. At the risk of going off on a tangent, the suggestion to read Kelly Mehler's book reminded of a funny story I read on a wwing forum a few months back....
It seems a guy responded to a classified ad in the local paper for an older Ridgid TS. He goes to look at it, offers the seller $50 less than he's asking, then proceeds to give a list of reasons why the saw isn't worth the original asking price. After some time the seller agrees to accept the lower price, and says....."alright...make the check out to Kelly Mehler".... True story AFAIK! It's literally the saw pictured on the cover of Kelly's book.
Funny story. If its true (which my cynical side doubts), it shows alot of humility on the part of Mr. Mehler...
You've gotten good advice,I'll add one thing .Since dust collection will be a priority, build a wall separating your shop from the rest of the basement.It can be as simple as studs and plastic, or better yet osb or plywood.You need a door with a sweep on the bottom. The entire thing can be made for under$100.00 if use use an interior hollow door and plastic.A dust collector and an air filtration unit will help keep your shop clean.My best way of keeping the shop clean is a broom and large shovel.No matter how good your dust collecting is you still need to sweep now and then.
I got away with a cardboard box under a contractors saw for quite a few years,this collects a good amount of the heavy dust.
mike
I know I am probably a bit late with any table saw ideas, however I have not seen anyone mention Shop Fox contractor saw as an option. I just bought my first saw and it was the Shop Fox W-1703. It is a 1.5 HP that pulls 17 amps and can be wired for 220. It has a megnetic switching mechanism for safety, a 4" dust hood and has a really good fence, the Aluma Classic fence. My price was $540.
I have had good luck with the saw so far. Great power and really pretty cool sounding, not too loud....certainly not as loud as the dust collector.
That's essentially a white Grizzly with dealer support and a longer warranty....sweet deal all around. That Alumarip Classic is a clone of the Biese Homeshop fence, but with aluminum faces instead of laminate.
perhaps you live in or near an urban area? if so, then check out craigslist.org under tools and search for table saw. For instance, in the Seattle area, you can find a 10inch contractors saw with Vega fence for the list amount of $395....maybe negotiable. If you feel comfortable evaluating a used saw, this is one of your options. pat, davis, ca.
Having purchased the Ridgid TS3650 a couple of years ago, I wish I'd looked at some of the other contractor saws out there (like the Delta, General, JET, etc.).
Don't get me wrong -- the RIDGID is a solid saw. But it has a couple of quirks that bother me more and more. It takes a lot of cranks to get the blade up and down. The built-in mobile base didn't do it for me, but it's a personal preference thing (I replaced it). I had to get the arbor replaced shortly after I bought the saw because of a defect (more an annoyance than anything). The switch is small and you have to fumble for it a bit when trying to shut it off without looking at it. And, I feel it's a bit underpowered (1-1/2 HP) with hardwoods like oak and poplar -- and I'm not talking about anything thick, just 3/4" stuff from the home center. I find the bladeguard and splitter a bit cumbersome to take on and off -- it has a thumbscrew that's a bit tough to turn sometimes. Just lots of little things that bother me. But when you add them up, I should have kept looking.
TF
Matt,
I took a woodworking course this winter at my local BOCES and found the experience to be fantastic. I had never had hands on experience with many of the tools I used until I took this course. Even better was that my instructor had 25+ years of experience and showed me the proper way of using the tools as well as fundamental techniques of woodworking.
With that said, after finishing my class I set out with a $1500 budget for a shop. Planer, Buscuit jointer, Jointer, Table saw, router, bits, blades, etc... So I got the TS350 for my basement shop and paid $286 on Amazon (coupons,discounts,and even got their credit card for additional $30 off) and I am very happy with it. I have a shop space similar to your area and this TS fits perfect. The other saws are more powerful, but are much larger! The foot print for those other saws would have eaten up most of my space. I wanted the Ridgid saw from HD, but just too darn big. I have cut 8/4 Oak like butter, so don't be afraid to go with the TS350. Cast iron table tops are smaller than other table tops, but I use a portable outfeed table. Just a good option.
P.S. When my son is old enough to start working with me, I will be getting a Sawstop machine. I hadn't heard of the new contractor version coming out until I had made my purchase. That might be the saw for you even if slightly over your price range.
Mike
thanks Mike! I ended up choosing the Jet contractor's saw on sale at Woodcraft. I squeezed the saw down there in the basement - I have to say the toughest part was getting it down through the bulkhead stairs. When you're carrying something heavy, that's ALWAYS the moment when you hit your darn head on the bulkhead!
I'm still working on how I'm going to lay everything out - there's a decent L shaped bench that the previous owners left in there, the TS actually fits in there pretty well.
This is the first I've heard of a Sawstop contractor's model coming out - I have a 2-year old daughter, that might be a good saw to upgrade to when she's a bit older - great idea!
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