Greetings all. If this info is posted somewhere else, please direct me to it. Thanks!
<!—-><!—-> <!—->
I’m looking for some advice about what tools I should buy to start my workshop. I currently own: 1) compound miter saw, 1) air compressor 1) brad nailgun, 1) drill. I started a list myself, but it’s like going to the supermarket when you’re hungry – everything looks good! Some of the items I have on my list are:
– Porter Cable / Delta TS200 table saw
– a nice hand saw (for dove-tails)
– a router (no idea what brand or model)
– maybe some chisels (for the dove-tail work)
<!—-> <!—->
I plan on building a variety of things: humidors, tables, maybe a bookshelf or two. Maybe even a dresser.
<!—-> <!—->
My CFO (read: Wife) keeps a tight hold on the purse strings, so my limit per tool is in the low $100’s. Also, I am just starting up, so I don’t need expensive equipment.
<!—-> <!—->
So, any advice you can offer would be much appreciated.
<!—-> <!—->
Tony
Replies
Hi Tony - Depending on what you'll be doing, a decent TS is the heart of most shops, and should get a disproportionate amount of the budget. My suggestion would be to scrap the TS200 idea and buy a good used full size cast iron contractor saw...they sell frequently in the $100-$200 range, or save up a bit more for a better saw than the TS200. Saws in the category of the TS200 are loud, underpowered, sloppy, small, light (unstable & tippy), not expandable for future needs, and not overly reliable. They also tend to increase the dangers of using a TS because of the inaccuracies. They will cut wood, but they're often outgrown quickly. It's more expensive to buy cheap tools that don't quite fit the bill or that suffer an early demise and need to be replaced. Just some food for thought.
As an example, just today I bought a used full size Craftsman 113.298240 locally for $80, and it's in great condition.
There are lots of good routers in the $100 range. For hand use, the PC 690 occasionally goes on sale near there. Just yesterday I sold a like new Milwaukee 5615 for ~ $80. The new Hitachi routers seem to be a good deal in that range. I'd tend to stay a cut above the Skil, Ryobi, and entry level Craftsman models if possible, if only b/c there are other great choices. A router with both 1/4" and 1/2" collets is a good idea...buy 1/2" shank bits whenever possible. For table mounting, the big Freud FT2000 and Hitachi M12V have both seen clearance prices in the $120 range.
You don't have to get everything at once. It's almost always a good idea to buy the best tool you can afford...at least for the major machines. Even if it means holding off on something else for a while...in the long run you'll be very pleased.
Edited 7/5/2006 10:52 pm ET by Scotty_
Tony;
First you should never fall into the "i'm just starting so expensive tools aren't necessary" trap. Generally the more expensive tools hold up longer and have more features than the cheap ones. You want your skills develope with your tools not be limited by them.
As for a table saw as mentioned don't plan on doing too much with a bench top saw, they just dont have the capacity to do very much with much safety. Look for a good used one ( check local classifieds ) they are easy to find for a good price. Ask to hear the saw run (listen for any high pitched whines or turn the blade by hand and feel for smooth operation). Give the hand wheels a few turns to check for slop or binding as they are turned. Use a straight edge to check the table for flatness. I said a few days back that if I could do it over again I would start with a bandsaw and not a table saw. The bandsaw can be trickier to set up but can do lots that a table saw cant. The cuts you cant make on a bandsaw can easily be done with other tools like a router with a lot more flexability and safety than on a tablesaw. THe band saw has a lot of potential for opening new techniques up with your projects that can make your projects really stand out.
As for the other tools you will need I would start with the layout tools first. Get a good Combination square, a sliding bevel, a straight rule ( 12" 24" or 36"), A marking knife and a good 16' tape ( always use the same tape for an entire project ).
For edge tools start with a set of bench chisels, a #4 and #6 stanley bench planes and a #220 lowangle block plane. Saws can vary a lot depending on the work you want to do. Go for a japaneese style saw with both rip and crosscut teeth on opposite sides of the blade that wil cut on the pull stroke. For dovetails you will want to get a dovetail saw that has a very fine kerf and a good coping saw can come in handy as well.
As for power tools a router is essential and a combo kit is ideal. This willgive you a router motor with interchangable bases. Next a good circular saw comes in handy as will a jig saw. Next look for a random orbit sander and possibly a belt sander.
Others will have good advice here as well so check back with future questions and good luck with all your projects.
Chris
Tony,
I just started my woodshop as well and one thing I haven't heard anyone mention yet is dust collection. My father was/is a carpenter and he never had any dust collection in his workshops and my first thought about dust collection was that it was a waste of money. but I got one because with the limited work I had done in my shop there was dust everywhere.
I can't imagine not having one now. When that bag fills up it amazes me how much dust would have been in my shop.
Tony,
I am in the same boat as you with trying to put together my first workshop. You actually have a head start on me by a long shot. I did however just purchase my first tablesaw because of the advice I have read here and recieved from other sources. I come from a computer background and know that you always plan for expansion. It cost more in the short term but you are much better off in the long run. (I know passing that one by the wife isn't as easy ;)
That said, I did get this saw...
http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/TS3650-Table-Saw/
Based on reviews and first hand accounts from a few people I know it was a better saw for the money than I expected to get. It was more than I planned on spending but my desire to put out quality work won over my wallet's concious. Next on my list is a sliding miter saw and then my router. I am leaning towards the new Triton I saw featured in one of the wood-trade magazines but I need more research on it compared to cheaper routers.
Any suggestions about the sliding miter or routers would be appreciated as well.
Good luck Tony.
Personally I think the Incra miter gage is the best...I have limited experience in this are, but mine works great!!! I use a Craftsmen 10” cabinet TS. The miter that came with it was less then accurate.... I finally purchased this miter slide http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=4385<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I am also just beginning or maybe re-starting is more accurate....<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Rich<!----><!---->
Thanks for the great tips and advice! It really is easy to get wrapped around the axle with reviews and gizmos. I just don't want to have to keep going back to the store throughout a project because I don't have the tool I need. The recommendations I have so far will set me up nicely... Thanks again.
ramblinwreck - I never thought about the dust collector! Now after reading this site, I'm scared to death!!! http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/Index.cfm
What's everyone else's take on dust collectors / systems?
Having a DC dramatically increased the enjoyment of my shoptime, plus it's better for my health. It's a tough item to squeeze into a tight budget early on though. A modest DC setup will run $300-$400 with all the fittings and decent filter bags. A shop vac with a cyclone lid on a 5 gallon pail will offer some DC help on a budget to get started.
Tony Mike B and BG make a couple of very good points: don't get hung up on the gizmosity of a particular tool (just get one that does the tool's basic function well and accurately), and you NEED a good work bench (IMO, a good bench is THE basic tool needed to do good woodworking). Woodworking is, in reality, nothing more than a couple of basic operations applied in conjunction with each other: drilling, boring, planing, sawing to a line, etc to make something out of wood. The "trick," of course, is getting good at those basic operations. Power tools are real time savers, but don't forget the hand tools. You'll need them for cleaning up the machining marks from the power tools, among other things. There are also some things that are better/easier done with hand tools than with power tools. Here's a basic set of hand tools that you may find useful: Hand planes: low angle adjustable-mouth block plane (probably the single most useful and versatile plane of them all); a #4 or a #4-1/2, a #5 or a #5-1/2, and a #7 or a #8 for bench planes; (a scrub plane, if you're going to do your woodworking exclusively with hand tools, otherwise it's more or less optional -- get a "real" scrub plane here; it works much better than a converted bench/smoothing plane.); a shoulder plane is also very handy. My recommendation would be either old (pre-WWII) Stanleys (be prepared to do some fettling with the older tools) or new Lie-Nielsens (a bit on the expensive side); others will suggest the LV/Veritas planes or Clifton (moderate $$ to expensive); special-purpose planes can be added, as required. If you prefer wooden planes, ECE, Knight, and Clark & Williams -- to mention just a couple of modern wooden plane makers -- make very nice ones, but they are not inexpensive. Old (antique) wooden planes are not my area of expertise, so I'll have to defer to someone else to advise you on them. Chisels: a good set of bench chisels (you'll get lots of recommendations from others here; I like the Japanese chisels sold by Woodcraft, but there are many, many other good chisels out there), and a good mallet. Saws: Take a look at the Japanese saws, as well as the western-style ones. Quality rip and cross cut saws (one of each, to start); a good tenon and a good dovetail saw (LN makes a really nice one). An Azibiki (Japanese mortise saw) is an incredibly useful little saw for a just few dollars. I use both styles. Layout tools: a good straight edge; a good marking gauge (I like the TiteMark); a marking knife; a bevel gauge; an accurate try square and a high-quality combination square (you could go with one or the other at the beginning -- the combination square is more versatile). Drilling tools: a good "egg-beater" hand drill (get an old Miller's Falls or old Stanley, etc); a good brace (again, get an old Miller's Falls or old Stanley, etc); a standard set of brad-point bits; perhaps a 32/4ths (32 quarters) set of Russell Jennings pattern auger bits for the brace. Books: try these sites for woodworking books that you may find useful or interesting: http://www.astragalpress.com/ http://www.cambiumbooks.com/ http://www.woodworkerslibrary.com/ http://www.blackburnbooks.com/ And, of course: amazon. Misc tools: a sharpening system (oil, water, or diamond stones); a couple of rasps and files (Nicholson #49 or #50, for example; the Arious are very nice, but BIG $$$); some hand screws and bar/pipe clamps big enough to fit your work (you'll never have enough clamps...); a flat and a round sole spoke shave; a good, solid work bench (buy or make yourself -- there are several threads discussing the virtues and disadvantages of either course of action), a shooting board (you'll have to make this yourself). While it's by no means an all-inclusive list, there's not a lot that you can't do with a tool set similar to that listed above, and it's not too terribly expensive to set yourself up with, especially if you buy good quality older tools off that (in)famous auction site or from some of the old tool dealers. And, hand tools (except for the bench) have the advantage of not taking up very much room, either in use or for storage. Combine these with the power tools you're looking at, and you should be pretty well set for nearly everything. One last thing: buy the best quality tools you can afford, so you only have to buy them once...... Good luck, and have fun setting up your shop!!Cheers!!James
"gizmosity" A new word for the wwing vocabulary! ....I'd like to borrow it sometime if you don't mind! LOL!
Be careful, gizmosis is highly contagious and can be spread even without direct contact.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
dgreen, You wouldn't be talkin' about the dreaded "gizmosis toolensis" would you? Have seen a couple of people with extremely severe cases; nearly impossible to cure..... Seems to be closely related to "slipperensis slopitis."Cheers!james
Severe cases are often accompanied by nomoreroomis and flatbrokis which slows the spread of the affliction somewhat but your'e right, darn near impossible to cure.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Got all that, plus a bad case of fleatosis from hanging out in the doggonehausen!Are ya sure you want to do this to yourself Tony?!
Edited 7/6/2006 7:15 am ET by Scotty_
Scotty, Aye mate, feel free to use it whenever ya like...it's a word I saw elsewhere and thought fit the situation perfectly.Cheers!James
If you can find a copy of the October, '04 Popular Woodworking (#143), there's an article on starting a shop from scratch for either $1,500 or $3,100. It's good in that it gives suggestions on what tools and machines to buy and offers brand options. It's bad in that it's just one guy's opinion and this kind of stuff can be subjective at best.
There have been numerous posts on this site about "the best machine" to buy. It's natural to want to get the best you can for your money, and I'm as guilty of that as the next guy. But, you can drive yourself nuts trying to decide on just the right tool with the most and best features. My advice is to choose a brand with a good reputation for performance and reliability and just buy it. Don't waste a ton time agonizing over this review or that, this gizmo or that, this new feature or the other, or one reply to your post or the next -- we all have our opinions, but they're just that and may not be valid for you. One table saw is about the same as the next -- it's just a table with a motor that spins a blade. My drills cost more than some, less than others, but they all just drill a hole or turn a screw. You'll get more enjoyment and satisfaction from the time spent using your new tools and getting better than you will from comparing every brand available. Just buy something and start making some stuff. You don't need to spend a fortune or own every type of tool ever made to have fun at woodworking. Good luck!
May be I'm a bit late in giving you a feedback.
When I started ww as a serious hobby, I purchased a cheap 10" TS. Over times my skill developed, but my TS has limited room for upgrade.
I think they are right. You can buy cheap mallet but please not TS.
Masrol
KUL, MY
Tony,
Many of us have been where you are now and look back on all the mistakes we made. Let me kinda take this topic in a slightly different direction and show you how it really works.
Making stuff is a four step process. (some might say 6 step, I'll stick with four) Milling the wood, joinery, assembly and finishing. Milling is making the stock flat and square and cutting it to dimension. This can be done with a jointer, table saw and planer...or it can be done on a workbench with hand tools. Joinery is your dovetails, mortise and tennon, etc. which can be done with mortice machine, tennon cutter for the table saw, using a router and jig for the dovetails...or using hand tools and a workbench. Assembly requires lots of clamps and a flat surface. This works well on the workbench and you can use the workbench with cleats and wedges to eliminate some of the clamps needed. Finishing (sanding, staining, polishing) requires a surface to hold the stock...the workbench.
My point is the workbench is pretty important and provides alternatives to running out and buying something in the middle of a project. Personally, I've spent lots of money buying solutions to problems that I saw in a catalogue. In the past all those same problems were solved by our predecessors using other means....many involved the workbench
hey tony,
i started out years ago with a small makita ts and even though it was a good portable it was difficult to obtain any kind of precision. next i bought the portable dewalt at about $500 and that was more of a woodworking saw, but still lacked precision and really it lacked smooth cuts no matter what the blade and glue lines were tough to make true. i just bought the rigid ts 3650 and it really is more of a woodworkers ts and i wouldn't reccomend anything less than that. as was already pointed out it got good reviews esp. in value. i've never had a shop large enough to own a cabinet type ts, but if i did i wouldn't hesitate to ask advice here and buy the best used one that i could if money was an issue. the woodworkers here are knowledgable, friendly, and helpful.
one more word from personal experience about the money issue. this concerns materials i.e. wood. i read about someone saying that the cost of the wood should be of little concern in making a decision what type to use. i started out making many projects with free and or inexpensive wood. i love those early projects and , in fact, they are still in my home. it has become extremely apparent to me that the cost of the wood should have almost no part in the decision on what to build with. build with what you like, because those projects will be around a long time and you want to like them as much later as you did originally.
good luck and get used to spending because it doesn't end!
greg
Problem is, I really love walnut! Too bad it isn't half the price of poplar - then I'd spend a lot more time in the shop!
Bob
relatively speaking, walnut really isn't all that expensive. even if it were, the reward you get from looking at your favorite handcrafted walnut pieces is worth the price in my opinion. i made a few things out of free spruce way back when. they still look good, but i sure wish i had used cherry. some i will remake with cherry.
Tony, I'm just beginning, too. In fact I've had my "shop" for 3 weeks now, but I'm absolutely loving it. I ended up with a Jet tablesaw that was on sale for $399 at Woodcraft and it's been great so far, I'm glad I spent a bit more than my initial budget, I definitely feel like I have a tool to grow into.
Definitely shop around online for good prices. I've bought a few tools from toolking - they're refurbished but they seem fine to me. I was able to get a circular saw, random orbit sander and biscuit joiner there for pretty good prices.
My strategy going forward will be to buy the big tools locally so there's good support but some of the smaller/commodity tools online if I can find a significantly better price.
Also, check the tools section of Craig's list, if there's a local CL for you, I'd bet there are good deals on table saws there...
Good luck!
Matt
Ciao Tony,
Come stai? Anch'io sono italiano.
My advice is quite different than everyone elses. I built furniture on the porch of an apartment in Binghamton, NY and another in Pensacola, FL for a few years. My tools were: a Craftsman circular saw, along with an 8' straight board for a fence, a couple of clamps, a jigsaw, a router, (Make the table yourself and dont spend more than $10 on it), a 3/8" electric drill gun, a hammer, set of screwdrivers, some sandpaper and a sanding block, and four pipe clamps. I am sure there were other miscellaneous hand tools that I cant remember now, but you got the jist of it.
Then I suggest you use this as a rule of thumb: NEVER BUY A TOOL THAT YOU DON"T NEED FOR YOUR NEXT PROJECT. Remember that the great cabinetmakers of the world didn't arrive at places like Norm Abram's workshop for centuries, and many, like myself, never will. I am not a Neanderthal who recommends just using handtools, although I do
recommend that you learn how to use them if you don't already know.
If you read the threads in Knots, you will see woodworkers with 30 years experience arguing which is the best router table. Don't worry about things like that. Important thing is: MAKE SAWDUST!!! HAVE FUN!! MAKE FURNITURE!! Make one project after another. Not much you cant do with a circular saw, some clamps and a long straight board for a fence to run the circular saw along. Make raised panels with hand planes or just use 1/4" panels. The jig saw will serve as your bandsaw. Before I started buying a table saw, a band saw, etc, I got a nice set of carving chisels. I was making carved furniture on the porch with the tools listed above.
I believe you will be happier if you go slowly on spending money for tools. They don't satisfy. What satisfies is the sense of accomplishment that comes from gaining skill and using those skills to build stuff (SAFELY). I forgot to say that you need a face shield and hearing protection and something to keep the dust out of your nose. You can buy those three things for less than $60.
IMHO, the best tools you can buy are a couple of great books. I would start with two. One is the set of Tage Frid books. No one makes more sense than Tage. Second is: Country Pine: Furniture You Can Make With the Table Saw and Router by Bill Hylton. This book is great because it takes you through a sequence of projects that allow you to increase your skill with each project. Of course, without a table saw, that second book doesn't make much sense. I have a Delta Contractors saw, and it works for me. You can borrow the books from your local library. You can buy them off Amazon used far cheaper than at your local woodworking supply house.
Don't focus on TOOLS. Focus on having fun making furniture!!!!! The real action is in your head.
MAKE GREAT FURNITURE. ENJOY!!!
Sincerely,
96
PS - my suggestions are only suggestions. It was a great idea for you to ask for advice. You will get a lot. Have fun sorting through it and figuring out how to get advice on which advice to take. I told you what worked for me. Others will tell you what works for them. Those things may or may not work for you. That makes woodworking so much fun. It is up to you to determine what you want to do and how you want to do it. The only thing most people agree on is BE SAFE. Of course, some who say that also operate their table saws without splitters and anti kickback devices. Happy sifting through the advice. Go to garage sales and buy used tools, after trying them out.
TABLE SAW - spend more on the TS, decide what the absolute maximum you think you should spend on one is and then try to find the most saw you can get for that amount of money. look in the papers and on the internet for good used saws. most people under buy their first table saw and are replacing it in short order. i personally would find the best used cabinet saw i could afford instead of a hobby saw or contractor's saw.
A NICE HANDSAW - buy used and have it set and sharpened by someone who knows what they are doing. In most cases old saws are better made than what you can find new. you can get a really nice used saw for under $50 and have it set and sharpened for around $25.
ROUTER - under $100 will be tough for a good quality router off of the shelf, I'd again look for a "near new" used router out of the paper or on e-bay...people buy things they think they want and then sell them cheap all of the time...get something with 1/4 & 1/2" collets if you can.
CHISELS - you can either buy them new, a few at a time as needed, or look for a good used set and sharpen them or have them sharpened...unless they saw heavy use and frequent sharpenings most used chisels still have a lot of miles left in them...
i would agree that ,especilly when on a a budget, you should buy only the tools you actually need for the project you are about to build. and you should always buy the best quility tool you can afford.
Great thread everyone! I'm also a computer guy by trade... so I am very familiar with Gizmosis (the virulent "Technos Expensivos" strain). My wife has a couple of effective cures for that though: The Witholden-Fundes Protocol and lots of yellecillin.<!----><!----><!---->
In the end, it is about the end-result: an enjoyable experience and a nice product. Age brings wisdom (they say) and I'm wise enough now to recognize that my enthusiasm may be outpacing my available time. It's great to have all these tools, but when work gets busy and the baby needs attention... the shop comes in a distant third place. I'd rather have a small group of tools that I will use all the time than a Norm Abrams-style Mall O' Tools that collects dust. (That workshop kills me... I need a sponsor.)<!----><!---->
Thank you again for all the great ideas and advice... I have a notepad with a ton of notes now. Please keep 'em coming!<!----><!---->
Tony<!----><!---->
Ciao TonyChe cosa fai, amico!I think you should consider some long term philosophical issues about where you want to go with your woodworking.I think working with plywood is a pandora's box. Once you decide you need to work plywood, you really need the industrial sorts of tools like large tablesaws and tools with accurate fences. With plywood, accurate cuts and square edges are important since most of the joints are butt joints of some sort. You'll need lots of clamps since these types of joints (unless you use biscuits) usually require fasteners to hold them together.If you skip plywood and decide to only work solid wood, you can skip a lot of big, expensive tools. So you could do quite a bit of your sawing with a bandsaw, and clean up the cuts with a plane. Of course, you're giving up the flexibility of making mdf kitchen cabinets say, with this approach.If we step back a bit further, we could think about the difference between working wood with jigs and fences, and working freehand (either with power tools or without). Note that some hand tool woodworkers continue to use jigs and fences with their tools, so this is really a philosophy beyond hand v. power. David Pye talked about all this in his book, which I recommend. For you, the freehand approach offers a few benefits to counter the loss in capabilities. Its cheaper, cleaner,safer, quieter, and satisfiying. Its also a little bit slower and more difficult. But with the skills you'll learn you can always go the other way later. This isn't like choosing the gender of a child. You can try a little of each and switch back and forth. But just keep in mind what happens as you cross the line. I work with 18th c hand tools and I can't worrk wih plywood at all. I can't make the sorts of carcasses that comprise kitchens.So if you decide to go the freehand route, I guess I'd recommend looking into buying a decent bandsaw. You can use your chop saw to cross cut. You'll probably need a router table to make grooves and things. And you'll need some hand tools (already discussed I see) and a worrkbench (ditto). I think hand planes are a reasonable alternative to a jointer and planer. And I think you can do well without a tablesaw. That's my advice.arrivaderla,Adamo Cherubini
The two MOST important items to have are a TS and a Workbench. My first TS was a General 10” contractor type saw. It is a good basic entry level saw, however after only two years of use I outgrew it and needed a TS with more power (5hp) and the ability to cut full 4 by 8 sheets. So get a saw with a least a 50” fence and a 3 to 5 hp motor. You want a Cabinet maker type saw. You also want a HEAVY workbench. You don’t want the bench moving across the floor as you plane or sand. My first bench was a 200 Lb, 10’ by 3’ door I salvaged from a construction site. A lot of times a door will fall on a job sit and be damaged beyond repair. You can pick up these for pennies on the dollar from the contractor sometimes. I just replaced my bench with the Elite 2500 with cabinets. Talk about sweet. I also just got the Smart Digi Lift and I never guess about the bit height anymore. If you forgo the DC system, invest in a good respirator, or life Ins. Most of the wood dust is carcinogenetic and will cause long term health problems. You don’t need a planer or jointer yet, you can get good wood already flat and jointed however you will pay more per bf for “ready to use” wood.
I get a 25% rebate on everything I buy so I tend to get high end things. After 27 years in construction I have also learned that you get what you pay for.
First a good TS
Second a workbench
Third a router table
Good luck, Ken
You hit on a subject dear to my heart because I have recently anguished over the same questions while setting up my first workshop over the course of the last three years. First, research each tool before buying. Look at the catalogs, the web, forums, talk shop in the tool stores, etc. You can learn a lot in a short period of time with some good due diligence. Second, while you're researching, remember that there is no perfect decision. And there is no perfect tool. There are tons of competing brands out there, each with different reputations and features. It's a matter of quality but it's also a matter of preference. Just remind yourself that as a beginner, you have to start somewhere. So once you've done some research and made a decision, feel good about it and take the tool home and start to use it. I would recommend not skimping on price (within reason that is!). I read a comment once from a woodworker who said that his biggest regrets have been the times he tried to save a few bucks and ended up purchasing an inferior tool. That doesn't mean you always need to buy top-of-the-line. Personally, I have tried to select strong performers in the mid price range and so far I've been very happy. To give you an example, for about $3,000 over three years I've purchased the following (in order of purchase): Delta 1.5HP 10" contractor table saw; Delta benchtop drill press (on sale); Rousseau benchtop router table (on sale); DeWalt combination (fixed + plunge) router; 14" Powermatic band saw; Delta 6" jointer (store + factory rebate); and a Makita portable thickness planer. I made my decisions as described above and purchased all my tools from either Amazon.com or my local Western Tool Supply store. Good luck. Don't be impatient. Enjoy the learning process.
Hey there Tony:
I'm on my second time around with startup so take it from there. My first major saw was a good used Craftsman radial arm saw. You can--if you use your head and take the time to set it up right get dead-on 90 degree by 90 degree cuts this way--and if you lay out the money on a good piece of oak for the fence--slide it up to touch the blade--and then when you go to make a cross-cut there's no guessing where the blade is going to go--because it lines right up with the gap in the fence. Fence gets chewed-up a little--slide it over and give yourself a new line to work with--chewed up some more--spend $8 and get another. I don't like compound miter saws for anything but compound cuts--and unless you're going to do a lot of crown mouldings--well let't put it this way--mine gathers dust in the garage. You can also rip with a radial arm and all that is necessary to make that smooth is to have a second uncut fence to slide in. I always used my kick-back awl when ripping and never had any problems getting straight cuts. I would not rip anything smaller than 2 inches with it, but never really needed to either. If you are going to buy a router, then buy one that has the fine adjustment knob on it and not one that twists in the base. Why, because the other absolutely essential tool in my book--and spend some good money on it is a good router table--and unless you want to lay out $175. for a router lift the next best option is the router with the fine adjustment knob on it. PC, Bosch, and Sears professional (Bosch) all have that option--so when you need to make multiple cuts on a big bit and don't want to tear-up the wood, it is really easy to twist that little dial and raise the bit--that little bit--to bring it on home to perfection.
Next--don't waste money on cheap chisels. I did that--and all they are good for is sharpening--but they don't hold an edge for 2 minutes. If you are going to buy chisels get a set of Sorby's or Red Cherries--because unless you become an expert in sharpening overnight--you'll want to use a sharpening guide, and short chisels don't work in guides. Speaking of which--I'm not in love with the Veritas guide because it does not grip the chisel and keep it square as you sharpen--and undoing crooked tips is a very long chore, when you sharpen by hand. Buy the cheapie $19 dollar silver looking one--it works great. Yes--I know the purists are gritting their teeth--but I have razor sharp chisels--so go to the dentist!
I grew up in England and took hand woodworking for 4 years in school--and unless you only want to complete 1 or 2 pieces of furniture a year--spend the money and buy a good Porter Cable dovetail machine, that will do both blind and through dovetails. My teacher in school would cut off each set of minorly imperfect dovetails, and for my final I intended to give my father a cigar box, and ended up giving my mother a box for her sewing pins--and that after all that training. Sure the Leigh jig looks just wonderful--but I want to build furniture--not spend 2-3 days setting up a jig or 2 weeks cutting the perfect set of dovetails on one side of a drawer, and have a chip-out on the other side make me start all over again.
Another thing about routers--don't waste money on cheap bit sets from the hardware store, Home Depot, or Sears. Go out and work up--one at a time as you need them, a good set of CMT bits. You'll smile every time you watch a new one bite into a piece of wood cleanly--and find a good professional sharpening service to keep them razor sharp for you--and you won't suffer with a lot of burning and tear-out.
And I agree, when you get the money go out and get a good cast-iron top table saw. But be aware of one thing--that is major. If you get a direct drive machine--one of my mistakes--you are going to loose blade height. I had to go out and buy another machine, because I could not rip more than 2.25 inches high on a direct drive machine. If you are going to do it--get a 12 inch blade capability--so you won't be tearing your hair out later when you want to work on table legs etc.
And another couple of musts--spend the money on going to a good art shop and buying a couple of decent rulers. DO NOT buy rulers with a space at the end where there are no markings--they are all but useless. Also, while you are there get a good metal T square about 26 inches long. Most of the panel work you will do will fit within 48 inches and you can use that square to lay out lines for dado's etc without having to worry about getting things straight. You can get the 48 inch square at Home Depot--but I found it cumbersome--and not very accurate.
And last but not least spend the money on a good set of squares. I have a set of Gladstones that I use all the time--not only for marking work--but also for truing up my saws. I also went out and bought the Gladstone miter square later, because the combination square I bought just did not give me accurate markings for miter joints.
A good caliper is nice to have so you can get an accurate idea of wood thickness, and why not go digital--instead of guessing? I bought both the cheap ones and they sit in a drawer--because I never felt confident about either the slide or the dial accuracy. I want to know--not guess.
Invest in 2 marking tools. One for mortise joints and one for everything else. Why? because the tool locks down on the mortise slide and is a pain in the fingers to use. If you purchase the one you can replace the pin in to begin with you won't have to buy another when the pin wears out--and buy a diamond file to keep it and other tools sharp.
A good cabinet makers awl is essential for marking center points before drilling and to punch that starter hole for small screws-- and the diamond file will keep that sharp too.
Get several sizes of the quick grip clamps--and spend good money on those too. The cheap ones do not hold their grip--but they make a fine noise when you throw them into the trash from across the room. Watch ol' Norm Abrams--every time he wants to hold a piece of wood still to work on it--he does not pull out the clumsy twist clamp--but the quick grips each time. And if you buy bar clamps buy galvanized pipe or suffer the consequences of unsandable black marks on fine furniture from black pipe.
Having such a limited budget is the perfect "excuse" to start out with hand tools. You can get some nice old tools pretty cheap and fix them up to be great tools. You'll learn some great basic skills in the bargain. IMHO, you'll be way better off spending $100 on a good hand tool than the same amount on a power tool that you'll soon regret buying since it's shortcomings will soon frustrate you.
I started woodworking in about 1970 and never owned a table saw until 5 or 6 years ago when I had to build a full set of kitchen cabinets. (At that time, I figgured that the savings I realized by doing in myself more than paid for the saw.) Prior to that, I got along just fine with mostly hand tools and hand power tools. Half the fun was collecting tools as the need arose, and I made some pretty nice pieces without ever plugging in, including some major pieces like a cherry Queen Anne highboy. Don't forget that some of the worlds greatest furniture makers never saw a power tool and they did pretty well. ;-)
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Ciao Tony,
You asked for a glass of water and got a firehose. Here is some advice on dealing with all the advice.
I have a sign on my wall that says: "When you are up to your *** in alligators, it is hard to remember that you were trying to drain the swamp." If your goal is to enjoy woodworking, don't lose sight of that goal. Don't fall into the trap of obsessive-compulsive research to find the best sandpaper.
It is far more fun to actually build stuff than to worry about whether each tool you buy is the "right one". There ain't no "right one". As you learn more about each tool, you will find that there is another one out there that is better. Sing that old song "If I'm not with the tool that I love, then I love the tool that I am with." (or something like that.)
Pay attention to Adam Cherubini. He builds 18th century furniture with hand tools of the type that 18th Century craftsmen used. In the 18th Century, there was no Delta, Porter Cable, Veritas, or even Sears-Craftsman and Home Depot. If I visited Adam's shop and we each built a table using the same tools, his table would be infinitely better than mine. WHY? Skill level!!!!! "Saws don't build furniture. People build furniture." (This is the woodworking modification of an NRA slogan.)
- BE SAFE.
- HAVE FUN.
- BUILD THINGS.
- DON"T SAVE WOOD SCRAPS LESS THAN 2" LONG.
- IMPROVE YOUR SKILLS.
- FLOSS EVERY DAY. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO ENJOY WOODWORKING IF YOUR TEETH HURT
Hope this advice about how take advice is useful.
96
Bravo! Well said!Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Tony,
I'm not suggesting my way is the best way to start a woodshop, but it made a lot of sense to me . . .
Many years ago I decided to restore a '70 Triumph Spitfire from the ground up. I knew absolutely nothing about engine mechanics, shop tools, and so on, but I knew I wanted to bring that car of mine back to life. I started with books on everything about auto repair and maintenance and restoration, and then I started on the car. I only bought a tool when the restoration required it, I bought the best quality I could afford and--if I could not afford it--waited until I could. Over the course of several years the car, and my 'auto shop', took shape.
It worked so well for me that I then did the same with my workshop. I read every book on hand and power tools I could find, so that I had an understanding ahead of time of what a specific tool was designed for and capable of. Then I chose a project and worked through it slowly, acquiring the tools that I knew from my reading I needed to finish the job the right way the first time. The next project needed new, different tools, as did the next. Over the course of several years my workshop grew, but I never (well, almost never :-) acquired anything I didn't need.
It's a method that worked for me. It's not as exciting as going out some Saturday and saying "I need one of those, and one of those, and two of these, and a set of those, and . . .", and it spread the cost over time, which also kept my wife happy.
Oh, and by the way, the car purrs like a kitten, and won best of show three years ago at the local imported car show.
Bob
Edited 7/7/2006 9:48 am ET by walker910
96,
Hey that's really nice of you to say. I'm not sure its accurate, but thanks. And I'm glad to see you speak Italian.
I think my advice should be taken or left on face value. What any of us can or cannot do with our tools is, in my opinion, irrelevant.
What is relevant is that Tony gets to choose an approach from many good alternatives. There isn't one way. And I agree that he should keep his goals in mind, and choose an approach that gets him closest to his goals. That's good advice.
For my part, I just want him to know that there is a practical alternative to a $2000 powermatic cabinetsaw. Further, that the path I've taken has its limitations (as do all approaches).
Tony,
I'd just like to caution you against the notion that working freehand requires years and years of practice. It doesn't. I'm proud to say, I'm not real good with my hands. I know people who are and I know I'm not one. Sawing by hand, like sharpening a chisel without a jig, takes a little patience and practice. But its not brain surgery. There are techniques and tricks that help. You can do it. I have done it. And I enjoy it. You might too. If this interests you, don't let anyone talk you out of it.
In a recent discussion of shoulder planes, I added that I don't like them. Now I see why. I really prefer to work freehand. A shoulder plane is a bit more controlled, and with that control comes some loss in flexibility (that's not the right word). Though I don't have nor have I ever used a bandsaw, I can similarly now see why I'm attracted to the tool. It too can be used essentially freehand.
Really do try to find that Pye book, because he discusses this so eloquently. He calls working freehand "the workmanship of risk". Your public library may have a copy. I interviewed Mack Headley, Colonial Williamsburg's Master Cabinetmaker for Popular Woodworking last year. Tho I don't recall my own article, I do recall him discussing this same subject, making these same points (and I probably missed it for the article- DOOP!). Only now can I see his influence on me clearly. When I asked what one power tool he would add to the Anthony Hay Cabinetshop, he thought a while and settled on the bandsaw. Now I think I understand why.
Adam
the teflon floss works great for me!
gmoney,
I prefer the kevlar floss. There was some leftover from the floss that was used to sew up my kevlar shop apron. The latest product reviews in leading woodworking magazines found that the kevlar aprons protect the woodworker from kickback almost as well as the steel and the oak aprons, while providing more flexibility and lighter weight. Besides, the kevlar floss doesn't break, even if your teeth are sharp or too close together.
96
oh man, i've used some products that i wish had more anticipation in them and less err, although they have expanded my vocabulary considerably. i'll give the kevlar floss a try, my teeth could use it. i keep them razor sharp with the sandpaper and glass method.
take care mr. 19 or can i use the familiar 96?
G,
Please call me 96. I highly recommend the Scary Sharp brand of toothpaste along with the kevlar floss for teeth which are both sharp and bulletproof. I used to use my Tormek but their tooth jig is not up to the standards of their other jigs. Stay in touch. Soon I plan to introduce a new society for woodworkers. I call it NOC WOOD. (Non Obsessive-Compulsive WOODworkers). We won't have any rules, because, not being obsessive-compulsive, no-one would follow them anyway. We are planning to allow the obsessive-compulsives into the group, as long as they stay on their medications. The help the OC types, we are thinking of having an "OC Woodworkers Anonomous" organization which helps the OC types help themselves. There may be some of them who recognize their problem and really want help. If this thing gets off the ground, members can put "NOC WOOD OM" after their signature in Knots posts, where the OM stands for Original Member. However is someone decides later that they wanted to have been an OM, that's ok too, since we don't worry about rules too much. While NOC WOODers are happy woodworkers, we do practice good safety procedures, because you won't be happy very long if you are injured.We need to do everything we can to retain a small cadre of woodworkers who really enjoy woodworking, and can make decisions without weeks of reseach followed by years of guilt. We need to allow new woodworkers, such at Tony, to enjoy the field without worrying about every tool purchase.
Enjoy,
96, NOC WOOD OMPS - Gmoney, where are you from in CT? I was born and brought up in Windsor Locks.
Here's a good read and some alternate thoughts.
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/icandothat/ICDT_Book_Aug06_HI.pdf
Early FWW had a debate as to table saw first or band saw first.
Tony, keep your eye open for used power tools. Even makes that are very old can be very useful, and if needed can be put in good condition. If you know a small shop machinist, such a person can be of great value in fixing up an old piece. My son, who works full time building curved staircases uses every day a unisaw from about 1939, bought at scrap-iron price. One of the trunions had to be brazed. new bearings placed, now as good as ever.
One of your responders mentioned that a router is necessary. I have one somewhere, can't remember where I put it. I view the router as a tool to remove any evidence of careful hand work.
Tom
While a router may not be a neccesity it is one of the most versatile and useful of power tools. It can do a complex and beutiful edge treatment in minutes that would take hours of careful handwork or several different molding planes that could cost more than the router and bit. Not everyone has the time to spend producing evidence of hand work or the space to store all the tools required to replace the functions the router does so well and for relatively little expense. No tool is a neccesity, it has been argued in this forum that one can make furniture with nothing more than ones teeth and a sharpend fingernail if one has the time and inclination to do so. I'm sure it would leave evidence of careful handwork also.
For the wide variety of uses and the quality of work it is capable of I would certainly think it worthy of consideration for a beginning shop.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Gmoney,
My woodworking is eclectic. Just made two short benches/tables for my daughter's deck. Before that, a heavy mobile base for my router table, with large drawers. Before that, two long five-board benches woodburned for a pair of Virginia Tech alumni and for a pair of Penn State alumni. Those are the most recent pieces. I spent the last two years also learning how to paint in the old German style of Bauernmalerei and in the old Norwegian style of Rosemaling. I found a couple who made a schrank. The husband made it, and the wife painted it in the Bauernmalerei style. I visited their house and made a set of measured drawings. It will take a while, but making and painting the schrank is on the "to do" list, as is a kitchen hutch for my daughter and son-in-law.
What about you?
nice 96, i did see a pic of those benches on here somewhere recently now that you mention it. my stuff is decidedly plain with clean lines. it always leans toward shaker and i love those arcs on stools, table stretchers etc.. i designed a stool recently with an compound angled sides and ends. the angles always look so nice to the eye although i find they add tremendously to the time and difficulty of the project. i often reproduce shaker pieces. i really enjoy making small projects like boxes, shelves, wall cabinets out of different woods. lately though i've been working with cherry and figured maple.
Ciao 96!
I'm (also) a fan of old German country-style furniture, including pieces finished with the old Bayerische Bauernmalerei style of decoration. Unlike you though, I have zero clue on how to achieve that style of decoration -- an artist I am not...... Perhaps one of these days.....
Too cool!! Best of luck in your Schrank-making and painting...I hope that you'll post some pics as you build and when you're done!!
Cheers/Tschüß/Ariverderla/Salute/Na Starovia/Slainte/usw!!!
James
Edited 7/11/2006 11:05 am by pzgren
Edited 7/11/2006 11:05 am by pzgren
Guten Tag, James,
Glad to find another fan of old German furniture and the Bauernmalerei style. There is a lady who has written about six books on how to paint Bauernmalerei. They start simply and end in grandiose fashion. Her name is Scottie Foster. She has a website at
http://www.bavarianfolkart.com/
where you can see the books and other stuff. I highly recommend her books. The first is as well written as any "How to" book you'll find. I have had a lot of fun with it.
I always have a list of projects in mind, but it keeps changing. The schrank is a "Goal" and is a year or two off. There are a number of skills that I need to build up to. It is a fun journey.
You know, it would be great if on Knots, each person's info page also had a place to post a bunch of photos of their work. That way when you look a person up, you could see their style(s). Seeing some of the pictures posted on the Gallery has given me a number of ideas.
I see you are from NM. My second son went to Univ of NM so I visited Albequerque and Santa Fe a number of times. Great place. Wonderful artists.
Thanks for writing.
Auf wiedersehen,
Mel
Grüß Gott Mel!
Thanks for the tip and the link. This looks like something that I'm going to have to learn -- just because it looks like fun, and because it will be useful for a couple of projects in the future (I also have one of those "to do" project lists that just seems to get longer and longer and longer.....). :-)
<<You know, it would be great if on Knots, each person's info page also had a place to post a bunch of photos of their work. That way when you look a person up, you could see their style(s).... >>
I agree....that would be a really useful and interesting feature.
Glad that you have had a chance to visit this part of the country. I attended UNM during the mid-70s and early 80s.
Been through Virginia a couple of times on the way to other places; would like to spend a little more time there and see some of the sights (Colonial Williamsburg, in particular). Have an old boss that lives in Vienna.
Anyway, thanks again for the info and link.
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen!
James
Edited 7/10/2006 2:37 pm by pzgren
Any tablesaw you get needs to have a decent amount of room in front of the blade. Otherwise, your work patterns are likly to be dangerous.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled