I have a beginning finishing question concerning the order of application of finishing materials. I just completed a coffee table of red oak & want to stain it. From what I gather I should first apply sanding sealer, then stain & lastly apply a protective coating. Is this order correct?
Thanks,
dlb
.
Replies
No, you do not want to begin with sanding sealer--in fact you may want to forego using it altogether. Typically stain is applied first. Occasionally, if there is a specific problem with blotching you may want to partially seal the wood with a light (1 lb. cut) of shellac or other wood conditioner.
Following the stain, you can go directly to protective finishes. Sanding sealer is sometimes used as an undercoat before protective finishes because in the typical lacquer based form, it contains a stearate "chemical soap" that makes it easier to sand than the top coat. But it is a weaker finish, and not recommended unless there is a dramatic time factor involved. It does not improve adhesion of top coats. All top coats will adhere just fine to themselves.
By the way, for reasons known only to Zinsser's marketing department, Seal Coat says it is a sanding sealer. This is true in the sense that, like all shellac, it can be sanded. It does not have the stearate. It can be used perfectly well as a top coat in its own right.
Thanks for the reply. I believe that I was told, but may be incorrect, that if I put down a sanding sealer first then the stain, the stain will sit atop the sealer (this may be too a general understanding) thus when repairs are needed I need not have to strip the wood to remove the stain. Does this make sense? Please correct me if I am wrong as I do not want to make a mess of the table.
Thanks,
dlb
.
The undisciplined life is not worth examining.
I believe that I was told, but may be incorrect, that if I put down a sanding sealer first then the stain, the stain will sit atop the sealer (this may be too a general understanding) thus when repairs are needed I need not have to strip the wood to remove the stain. Does this make sense?
Yes, that makes sense... but I disagree with the logic. Putting the stain over a sealer coat would indeed leave the color sitting up above the wood, as you were told. As Paul alluded to in another comment, that is one technique that is sometimes used to accomplish a very specific look. Layering colors is a more advanced technique which can yield stunning results which simply aren't possible to achieve any other way.
But, contrary to what you were told, repairing a finish where 100% of the color sits up above the wood is almost always actually quite a bit more difficult to pull off precisely because the color is sitting up above the wood.
Steve,
I just spoke to a friend who gave me some further information concerning why you would want to put sanding sealer down first then stain - actually he uses dye, not stain. He stated that the sanding sealer will help eliminate splotching because it provides a base for the finish to sit on. I am now more curious concerning your order of application, please.
Thanks,
dlb
.
The undisciplined life is not worth examining.
A wash coat of very thin sealer (reduced at least 4 to 1) or shellac is sometmes used to control blotchng on difficult woods. Another technique is to pre-treat the wood with clear stain base, or even pre-wetting with solvent to keep the stain from overpenetrating. Those are only three of several methods of controlling stain penetration.
That being said, it's generally a pretty poor idea to try to stain over sealer. It usually turns out pretty ugly and lifeless, and you run a pretty big risk of adhesion problems later on with a lot of finishes. Chances are you won't be able to develop any depth of color, also.
The normal sequence for a simple finish is pre-treat if necessary as described above, stain, seal, scuff sand, topcoat. You can usually seal with topcoat. Sealers are sometimes a big help in producton finishing, but home finishers don't really see a lot of benefit from them.Michael
Sometimes it's the artist's task to find out how much music you can still make with what you have left. Itzak Perlman, upon playing a concert on three strings at Lincoln Center after breaking a string.
There's two reasons commonly used to pre-seal or partially pre-seal the wood before coloring. The first is to reduce or eliminate blotching as your friend said and the second is to layer the color. Layering the color can accomplish a number of things; add depth, accentuate design details and/or grain patterns, add contrasting or complementary color, and/or make small color corrections.Some woods will blotch and some won't. You don't need to control stain penetration in order to prevent blotching on oak because it takes dyes and stains very well (though there are some issues with the pores and dyes). Other woods, like alder, aspen, birch, cherry, fir, pine, etc. do blotch when you apply stains and partially pre-sealing the wood will take care of the problem. I usually use a washcoat of finish to control blotching. You can read more about that at this link - http://www.finishwiz.com/washcoatsolids.htm - if you're interested.Since you don't need to prevent blotching, you can prep sand and stain the oak table without any worries. Once the stain is dry, apply your finish coats. If you need to keep end grain from getting too dark, the info at the link above addresses the issue.
Paul
http://www.finishwiz.com
dlb,
You need to checkout Paul's web-site. Some very good info (thanks Paul). I do most of my work using Red Oak. And I never use a sealer. I have learned a couple of tricks that work for me. I usually sand to 400 grit, stain with an antique cherry (general finishes) to "pop" the grain. Lightly scuff with a 3m white scrubbing pad (0000 grit I think) then wash coat with a mix of 50% mineral spirits and 50 % of your top coat (once again I use the general finishes). Let dry several hours, scuff and apply finish full strength. Prepping between coats is important. Scuff and use a tack cloth to remove all surface particles. Plus if you are in the garage (like I am, tell the family to use the front door, hehehehe).
I have also used a latex wood filler to fill the pores to show the strong grain patterns. I mix light and dark colors to the tint that suits me. Apply with a plasict putty knife. Let dry and sand. Then stain, scuff, wash coat, scuff, finish, ect.
Finishing just takes practice and experimenting.
Joe
Is it really saw dust or wood dust?
dlb,
Back about 30 years ago, when I was stripping used furnitue, I was instructed to apply the same process...seal, stain, finish by finishers who knew their business. I suspect that routine was popular to blend the wood and add what ever color they wanted (remember blonde mahogany?). Back then there was high demand for solid wood only and a consistent color in the wood. When I stripped down those pieces the color was gone and underneath were different color pieces of mahogany..
dlb,
About a month ago, I finished a red oak bookcase for SWMBO's cook books. All surfaces were planed or scraped -- no sand paper. The "sealer" -- actually, the filler -- was BLO & 4F pumice very gently rubbed into the grain with 400 grit sand paper -- I didn't want to lose the shine and planed smoothness of the surface. After letting the BLO/pumice slurry soak in and "dry" for about 15 - 20 minutes (I live in the desert with an average of about 8% humidity, so drying times are greatly accelerated), I wiped the excess off cross-grain. After letting the BLO/pumice cure for about a week, I put 6 real thin coats of glossy tung oil on, lightly scuffing with 0000 steel wool between coats, and 2 or 3 days of drying time between coats; final coat was allowed to dry for a week and then it was topped off with 2 coats of hard wax. The result was a slight darkening of the wood, really highlighting the grain, and a semi-antique patina to the piece. Even though the pores are visible, the piece is marble smooth to the touch and has a depth that surprised me. The details of using BLO and pumice for a filler/sealer are in a late 80s/early 90s edition of the FWW collection of articles on finishing book (don't remember the exact title...). Hope that this might be of some use to you.
James
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