I’m in the market for a quality bench chisel set that isn’t going to break the bank. Actually, this will be my first set of chisels so I’d like to find a set that’s middle of the road and reasonably priced but will also last for years to come. FW’s last review of bench chisels was in ’99 so I’m not sure if that’s still an adequate review to go by as some manufacturers may have improved their chisels. I’ve looked at the chisel sets offered by LV and Crown (~ $75) but your recommendations/thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks, Brett
Replies
FWIW, you might consider the set of 6 Ashley Isles from http://www.toolsforwoodworking.com at around $117:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=IL-100-20.XX&Category_Code=CLW
B,
so you want bench chisels.
I believe this has been discussed before. As I remember, someone said that the chisels used in most of the woodworking schools in the US are the blue Marples, whose name is now Irwin. The comment was that you can sharpen them real good. They get duller a little faster than the "Best" chisels, but if you are not a Master, then a little practice in sharpening ain't all that bad.
I'd highly recommend the Irwins. I'd recommend finding out what it takes to do handcut dovetails well. You will find out that the side bevels ought to meet the back of the chisel. If you want to see what that looks like, go to Lie Nielson, and look up their chisels.
If you hold the LNs in your hand, and then you pick up any other set (Marples, Irwin, Pfeil, Two Cherries, Hirsch, etc, you will never be satisfied again unless you get the LN. They are that nice to hold and use.
But if you buy the Irwins, you and just grind the sides to get the right bevels, and you and practice sharpening, and you can beat the livin heck out of them, and then you can sell them for $10 and buy the LN. If you buy the LNs, I wouldn't start grinding the side bevels. Just hone them a little, and chop some dovetails, and feel what it is like to achieve Nirvana.
If I were going to go with a MID level set, it would be the Pfeils. You can get them at Woodcraft. I am a carver and my gouges are Pfeil. Can't beat em. The chisels are very nice. They will last forever. They don't feel as good as the LN, because they are larger, heftier and taller, but their handles are surprisingly light for their size.
I hope I haven't confused things too much. If I did, just write to me, and I will try again.
Simplified
- if you go cheap, go with the Irwins
- Mid priced, go with the Pfeil
- Expensive (but cheap in terms of life cycle cost) go with LN
You can buy the LN and use them for five years and put them on EBay, and you'll find that you can get almost full price for them. If you don't believe me, go and check EBay for LN for six days in a row, and see what the stuff goes for.
This last point is very interesting. I am telling you that if you were to sell the chisel set after a year, you will lose money on all sets except possibly the LN. In other words, you and use the LNs for "just about" free for years. I have seen LN stuff go for more than retail on EBay. We live in a crazy world.
Pfeil also sells for almost full retail for years after purchase. Two Cherries, Hirsch, and Irwin, will lose more of their value after purchase.
Enjoy.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Regarding chisels, you just can’t go wrong with the flee market. There are literally tons of good ones out there for under $5.00 each, (Buck Bros. Greenlee, Stanley, Millers Falls, Union Tool, the list goes on…). They are easy to clean up and tune, (often less work than many new ones require). Also, you can find a lot of different styles out there. I do not own a new one and have at least 30 in the collection so far.
Yeah, what Napie said! All my favorite chisels are vintage rehabs that usually cost $15 or less. Stanley, Swan, Witherby, Buck, Greenlee, Pexto, are all names I look for and have good success with. Look for socket or tang chisels with wooden handles. The plastic handles seem to be about 1950's forward, so most of the wood handled types I've mentioned are at least of 40's vintage and many much older. Just avoid any pits near the cutting edge.
I would second what most of the replies have said, and add this...you can have quality and value if you buy chisels as you need them. Buy a 3/8" or 1/2" Lie-Nielsen and use it until you HAVE to get another size. You do NOT need to buy a whole set right off the bat. Two or three sizes will probably cover 90% of what you do even after you have all of the sizes. A carver posted one of the replies, and not to speak for him, but I would bet all of my tools that he didn't buy all of his carving chisels at the same time. I'll make a further bet that he has a few favorite chisels that he uses for a good portion of his work, and most others are specialty items. If you acquire your chisels over time (whether antiques or new quality ones) you will not feel the sting nearly as much, and you will build a quality set of tools in relative short order. Why buy tools you won't use?
Hi Brett,
Totally agree with everyone.
I just purchased a complete set of old Stanleys from an older gentleman who can no longer work wood. He's in his 80's and these were his fathers chisels. Found them in a local newspaper ad. He just wanted them to go to someone who would actually use them.
They're almost like new, except for the handles, which are in pretty rough shape (cracked, dried out from lack of use as I was told) but the steel and blades are like new.
$35 for the set. They were ready to use right out of the roll!
I think the point I'm trying to make is that I bought some really good bench chisels at a very good price and when I need to sharpen them I won't have to worry about making mistakes. Sharpening is a whole new world of experience.
With a set of LN's I would be a bit paranoid cause they ain't cheap!
Welcome to the slippery slope!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
The Irwin-Marples Blue Chips were the highest rated in an article in Popular Woodworking by Frank Klausz, about a year ago. He put a good edge on a bunch of 1-inch chisels, pretty much one from every mid cost brand out there, (ten in all), and then used all of them to pare a 1/4 inch of oak from the same piece of oak.
After he finished he compared the edges, to see how well they had held the edge.
The Blue Chips were still the best, (he had done the same test several years earlier).
They are available from Amazon, and Rocklers among others. They cost around $60 for the six piece set, in a wooden box, or about $35 for the four piece set.
The suggestions some of the others are making of buying used at flee markets, is only applicable if you live somewhere there are flee markets, and people have old tools to sell. I don't see too many of them in my area, (none actually).
People can talk about how great the old tools are / were, and their superiority to modern tools. But, quite frankly the advances in metallurgy that have occurred during and since World War II, leave quite a bit of doubt to the accuracy of such statements in my mind. A well made tool, produced with modern alloys, will in all likely hood be consistently better than those made before World War II.
Please define "better."
I have swan, witherby, stanley, and LN, among others. I also have myriad brands of old and new carving tools. I also have both vintage and new (Isles) mortising chisels. The old ones keep up with the new ones just fine. Indeed, I have a 3/8th inch swan that seems to have been produced on a lucky day with just the right steel and process - it takes and keeps an edge like no other bench chisel I own.
I guess more consistent would be better descriptor, but the modern alloys are much more exact in their composition, and the more automated systems can can consistently turn out products to vary tight tolerance.
Like you said, you have one chisel made on the lucky day when all things lined up, and it holds an edge better than any other you own. Now days it less a matter of luck, than what compromises were made to control cost to meet the price point.
And once you know what you are looking for, it may be a real probability to buy tools at swap meets and the like and end up with high quality tools for less money. But until a user has a reference point, choosing quality tools when they are mis-sharpened, rusty, and have visible defects in them could be a dauntingly unsurmountable task.
I am not completely convinced about your argument related to tight tolerances.
For example, it is excessively difficult to measure hardness (HRC) with a accuracy better than 1.8 points. In manufacturing lot of things boil down to statistical averages and variations relative to certain bounds on a set of target specs. No matter how good the process control, there almost always a certain a mount of 'binning', 'white products', etc.
Also, it seems to happen a lot on the really high end that even if all the numbers are right people still don't like the product (or of course the other way round). Audio equipment, cars, musical instruments, woodworking tools, choose your examples.
Although steel manufacturing and material science have made great strides in the last 100 years, I believe it is conceivable that experienced craftsman can outperform machine made products in terms of usability (not necessarily in terms of each process 'objective' process parameter).
I think both sides of this discussion are correct. Modern steel IS cleaner. But whether coincidentally or not, the hand forging process reduces crystal size (producing the attributes Ray mentioned) and decreases the size and concentration of edge weakening impurities. I don't know if folks did this on purpose or this was just the only option.
Personally, I prefer the old high carbon steel tools and swear I can tell the difference (when sharpening) between old steel and modern air-quenched steel. My guess is I'm probably wrong (probably can't tell the differnece). Maybe its that I just don't like shiny new stuff.
Adam
P.S. metallurgically, I suspect old cast steel chisels share much in common with modern japanese chisels.
Jigs,
I have often heard your argument about modern day ability to control alloy ingredients, and heat treating, as compared to techniques used in the 19th century. I have no doubt that is true. Why then does a plane iron or chisel from an 1850's Sheffield forge perform better (take a keener edge, hold its edge longer under use) than a Stanley blade from the hardware store? Here's my theory:
Unfortunately, the advances in metallurgic technology have been matched and overtaken in the hand tool market by declining quality since WWII brought about by:
1) large mfrs "need" to compete with foreign made products to retain market share
2) pressure for lower prices from a less knowlegeable public--declining numbers of craftsmen who need hand tools for their jobs--increasing numbers of home handymen who want "a saw", so they can prune the pear tree one day, and cut a 2x4, then some plywood for shelving, the next time it is used, a year later.
It seems to me that demographic changes I've seen in my lifetime have recently changed this situation. An increasing number of middle-aged and retired hobbiest woodworkers, with a desire for better quality tools, a desire to learn how to use them, and the income to buy them, has created a demand that is being supplied better nowadays (often by boutique makers,) than when I was buying tools in the 70's, to use on the job.
Ray
I couldn't agree more. Today, the potential and capability to produce high quality tooling steels, and cast iron, is far than at any time in history.
I think part of why many of the surviving tools from days gone by are also the best the manufacturer could produce at the time they did it, and some of the mid line tools that were in fact the product of probabilities converging have survived through to today, because they were outstanding examples. People compare the one in ten thousand where everything converged to a low or mid range tool of today and find todays tool wanting.
There was an old western movie, with I think Jimmy Stewart in it, that was based on disputes of ownership of a certain one in a million Winchester repeater. Every part on a rifle has a little bit of tolerance, and on this one rifle everything happened to be at the optimum, and it was extremely accurate.
I think the same thing happened with tools, some were outstanding, and treasured by their owners, others had to fall at the other end of the spectrum, and were quite low in quality. Those tools were despised by their owners and didn't survive through to today. Or, if you had a chisel that wouldn't hold an edge, you went to the village blacksmith and had him reharden and retemper it. So when you buy an old tool, I think the odds favor it at least being of medium quality for it's day or better. Pepole didn't treasure the stuff that didn't work well, and it has long since disappeared.
Look at Lee Valley's hand planes, they are as good or better than the top of the line planes that Stanley ever produced. And, if you compare the prices adjusted for inflation they cost less, than the Bedrocks did. Part of that is Lee Valley's willingness to actually look at areas where they can improve the product with a savings in cost. Look at the lateral adjustment screws for the blade at the throat. It costs little more to drill the two holes and install the set screws, than it takes to accurately grind guide bosses in the body. But, the set screws are adjustable, and you never have the problem of a body where both bosses are at max tolerance and the blade is sloppy.
Todays manufacturerS works from a price point and reverse engineer their processes and materials to meet that point. Low cost tools are far superior to low cost tool of a hundred years ago, but they are low cost tools, and compromises have been made to meet the price point. Probably 99% of the midline tools of today are superior to all but a very few of the midline tools of a hundred years ago. And, high end tools of today cost less than high end tools of a hundred years ago, and most frequently are superior products.
some of the mid line tools that were in fact the product of probabilities converging have survived through to today, because they were outstanding examples
Sometimes the opposite is true. Some pristine old tools have survived because they weren't used. I think Stanley #45's fit into this category. My set of Hirsch chisels certainly fits this as well.
I think my previous post explains the difference between the old and new tools.
Adam
Hey there,
I'm with the swap meet croud. I have a number of very nice chisels and a lot of old ones I've collected at swap meets. My favorite is still an old 1/2" buck brothers with a chipped handle. It fits my hand like no other. If you want a razor edge try the Japanese tools. The hand forged tools are incredible but expensive. You can often find old Japanese chisels on ebay for under 20 dollars, try one or two.
There is no need to buy a set. You will probably find that you will only use one or two and the rest just take up space. Start with the size you think you will use most often and expand as needed.
Good luck,
Dan
If you have a lathe it can be enjoyable and instructive finding old chisels and turning new handles for them.
Most of mine are reclaims, see a few here.All kinds of things are available for ferrules-from bought ready made to copper or brass tube to 20mm cannon cartridge shells.
Brett, I was in your situation last winter, and did all the research about chisels I could, reading about each brand, trolling e-Bay, etc. I ended up pretty confused.
Then I stopped by to see Joel at Tools for Working Wood in NYC, interrupting his lunch to ask him which I should buy. He brought out one of each line in the store and said, "They are all good chisels and will all do what you want to do. Hold each one. Which feels best in your hand?" So I stood at his workbench fooling with each of them and, based on that criterion, I walked out with a set of Two Cherries, which I've been delighted with since.
Joel was right: everyone's hand is different. I highly recommend holding a chisel before buying it. Thanks, Joel.
Norman
Chisels are simply wood and metal. As Joel correctly guided you, to those who are not near enough a retail outlet to do the same, buy one of the chisels that interest you and try it. If the handle doesn't feel right, break out a rasp and have a go at it until it does! If the steel won't hold an edge, and you're a bit daring, try your hand at some hardening. If the bevels, (sides included) aren't quite right, grind them until they suit you. Single chisel prices (unless you're into LN) are quite reasonable and can provide cheap entertainment!
Or put the chisel in the classified section and try another brand until you find one that suits you.
All of the responses have been helpful but it's definitely a daunting and confusing task to find the right chisels. I was thinking about buying chisels one-by-one so from the responses, it sounds like that's the best route for budget and only buying what you need. At this point, I think the LN chisels will be more than I need and I'm not sure if I'd have an appreciation for them considering it would be my first chisel.
On the vintage chisels, I did a quick search on Ebay and there are a ton of old chisels so what should I be looking for and how much should I expect to pay for each one? Also, with the Stanley's, is there a particular model I should look for--I noticed there's a #720, #750, etc.? If anyone knows of a specific website that sells used, vinatage tools, please pass it along.
Also, this may be a stupid question, but can all chisels be hit with a wooden mallet? You see various shapes and materials used in chisels handles so I wasn't sure if that was an indication as to how it should be used.
Thanks again, Brett
LN is kinda funny in that they copy popular tools. It appears to me that they copied Stanley's popular 700 series of chisels. I think these were general purpose chisels as they have fairly thick blades and sockets. I think LN may have thinned the blades down a little (or all the stanley's I've seen/owned may have been shortened through years of wear). Either way, I'm not a big fan of these patterns. As guys are collecting them, they aren't always cheaper than new chisels, which in my book is a bad thing.
My advice is to go with the older tanged chisels. These are almost always from Sheffield- there were only a few American makers (but they're good too). These chisels can often be found with broken handles which really discounts their prices. A couple old tool dealers sell new handles or you can make your own easily enough. These are a little lighter, for a little lighter work (like opening small paint cans!).
So make your decision based on the sort of work you want to do. I like the thinner, tanged chisels for dovetailing. I recommend buying at least one wide tanged chisel for paring. I get great use from mine. Anything over an inch or so will work, it needn't be long and thin. Grind a low angle (like 20 degrees on it) and enjoy.
I hit carving tools with a wooden mallet. Its just common sense. I figure you want to use a mallet softer than the handle. Also, I don't put ferrulles on my tools. I find I have to hit so hard that I'm afraid the handle will break, I'm doing something wrong.
I forget, but I'd bet Bob Smalser has a nice web article on making handles for tanged chisels. If you can't find it, I'll bet he wouldn't mind an email.
Adam
Bobo,
You have gotten a lot of great responses.
Many of them are quite different from each other.
You have decided to follow one of the suggestions and buy old chisels on EBay, but you want to know which chisels and how much to pay for each. I don't think anyone can write you an answer to that which would be less than 10,000 pages.
EBay is a jungle for people who are not knowledgeable in the area in which they are buying. So I don't recommend it. I also dont recommend going to garage sales and antique stores to look for old chisels because they are hard to find, and in my experience, expensive.
I believe you would be better off buying any set of chisels that you see. The Marples/Irwin are cheap and you can learn a lot with them. When you know what the limitations of these chisels are, buy a set which solves your problems. The best thing you can do now is to "use chisels a lot", and any chisels will do for this stage.
I went through your situation and did what you did. I ended up buying a set of Hirsch chisels from Lee Valley. Later I learned from Adam Cherubini that these chisels were so highly polished that their edges were dubbed (rounded over). Adam is as knowledgeable as anyone in this area. He has both academic and hands on experience. So how did Adam learn about the problem with the Hirsch? He bought a set. He and I both bought sets (me with little experience, and he with lots). So anyone can make a non-optimal chisel purchase.
My guess is that you could make Adam or/and me an offer for our Hirschs and we'd take you up on it. You should ask us to compete for your business in this deal. Who will sell them cheaper? By the way, after flattening the backs, they are very good chisels, IMHO. I just like the LNs better.
Well, I took Adam's advice and flattened the backs of the chisels so tht the edges are now sharp, so my chisels work quite well (by my standards, which are not as high as Adam's because he has more experience about knowing what one should expect).
In the first few years of using chisels, you will make a number of mistakes (like the rest of us) and you will waste some wood. The cost of that wood will outshadow the money you will lose by buying a second set of chisels when you know what you really want, based on more experience.
I recommend that you don't rack your brain and waste a lot of time on EBay or driving to garage sales. Buy any chisels, do lots of woodworking, have fun, and let us know in 3 years what you think about chisels. Which chisels a woodworker has does not have a first order effect on the goodness of the work that he turns out.
DISCLAIMER- this message is filled with biases and hypotheses and opinions. This message contains no facts. I am not out to argue against what anyone else has said. I am so old that I forgot what everyone else said. You didn't pay for my advice, and my advice is worth every penny of that.
HAVE FUN.
Mel
PS - do an experiment to see if chisels make any difference.
Pick any of the professional woodworkers who has given you advice. (I am not one of them.) Ask the person what his favorite set of chisels is, and which set is one of his least favorite. Then commission him to make two identical pieces, one with the set he likes and one with the set he doesn't like. Then check to see if you can tell which was made with which. My guess is that you won't be able to. My guess is that none of the other professionals would be able to either. So is it really all that important? I don't think so. Spend more time woodworking and less time worring about which set of tools to buy. :-)Even if you didn't get anything out of this, I hope you enjoyed it.
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Well, just to keep it interesting, I'll contradict Jigs and Mel.
Vintage chisels are not a 1/10,000 crap shoot. Of the scores of vintage chisels I own, only one has ever been inferior as far as crap (soft) steel, and for all I know it was in a fire at some point or some such. Most all of the mass produced chisels by respected makers from 1850 to 1950 that I've come across have been more than usable and often exceptional.
As for Mel's expereince that ebay is ever so treacherous, pshaw. It ain't rocket science, and there are pictures. Look for well known names we've already mentioned (stanley, buck, swan, witherby, pexto) - there are many others too (samson, greenlee, ward, butcher, etc). Don't bid on any with pits or extensive rust (staining or light rust is fine). Do look for those that are not pristine specimens that collectors will want - a user can tolerate a handle that's scratched and lost finish or a blade that's stained or even shortish. If you're willing to make a handle (not that difficult even without a lathe), the possibilities are even wider and the prices even lower.
Any chisels you buy new or vintage are going to need some work as far as flattening the back (sandpaper on plate glass will suffice to lap) and sharpening. You should factor into your chisel purchase budget some money for the tools necessary to get and keep whatever you buy sharp. Just to state the obvious.
Samson,
Enjoyed your post. I am merely a hobbyist. If I had your experience, I'd buy the old stuff on EBay too. My point was a bit different. I think that too many beginning woodworkers and hobbyists worry too much about which tool they are going to buy. Tools don't make furniture, people do. With your background, you could come into my shop and use my humble tools to make better furniture than I could. While I may not have the best tools in the world, my skills do not yet match the capabilities of the tools that I have.I have a part time "job" at a Woodcraft. I wouldn't call it a "job" because the pay is lower than what you could make by flippin burgers. But no one works there for the money. We'll talk more about that some other time. But I meet a lot of woodworkers. Some of them obsess over every detail of every tool purchase. Others are having a lot of fun making furniture and not worrying so much about the tools. A lot of chips are flying and dust is being made. I'd much rather talk to folks who are having fun making furniture than who are obsessing over tool purchases. My advice to newbies is to spend a lot of time making furniture with whatever tools are lying around. I also recommend that newbies find woodworking guilds so that they can find experienced woodworkers. That is the way to learn. Visit their shops and watch people and tools in action. I think that newbies get far more out of discussions on techniques than on which tool to buy, but they seem to worry more about which tool to buy. I wonder why? I am not worried about whether you agree with me. I hope you think that I brought out some interesting and valid points to ponder. If all I did was to bring out some ideas that caused you to have even better ideas, then I have done a service.Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, Mel, Mel, I ain't all that. I'm a hobbiest too. I started out in woodworking aout 15 -20 years ago with a serious interest, but not too many "fine" projects at the start - really more like decent carpentry. My small shop and limited funds led me to learn about hand tools out of necessity as I had no place or money for big power stuff. At that time the boutique stuff like LN's chisel's didn't exist. Hell, LN didn't even have bench planes then I don't think. Finding and rehabbing old stuff was a great option. It became fun and rewarding. I suppose I'm a sucker for the old stuff, as I fancy the link to the past and other woodworkers gone before. But even without a mentor or tool hunting guide, I managed to secure and sharpen up good 'ol stuff too, and all I'm saying is that any newbie can. There are no big pitfalls - little is at stake when you're only spending $10 buck on a chisel or $20 on a plane.
I agree making stuff is what it's all about, but I think the tools can fun too and, for the hobbiest at least, having tools you like adds to the woodworking experience.
Samson,
Perfect!
For me at least. In my situation you hit the proverbial nail right on the noggin. Couldn't have said it better.
I'm not a rich man and am remote from a lot of stores so I rely on local resources, which are slim at best.
I live in what many would call an economically depressed area of the country. Most folks have relied on the logging industry to support them. Quality trees are nearly gone around here and loggers are scrambling.
So I have to make do with what I got. For the most part, a bunch of old Baileys, a few Millers Falls, a Buck Bros., Marples Blue Chips, etc.
They all work for me, and they were an enjoyable experience getting 'em to work! And I'm looking for more!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 9/11/2007 9:43 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Edited 9/11/2007 9:44 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Just to make it more than a generalized claim, I did a quick search of recently ended chisel auctions. Here are some examples of what I think are very good bets to be good users. All were very reasonably priced too. EBay results:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Buck-Brothers-1-2-Inch-Tang-Bevel-Chisel_W0QQitemZ300145745762QQihZ020QQcategoryZ13871QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/1-2-Stanley-no-750-chisel_W0QQitemZ120158083291QQihZ002QQcategoryZ13871QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-STANLEY-No-750-BEVEL-EDGE-SOCKET-CHISEL-3-4-in_W0QQitemZ250162993192QQihZ015QQcategoryZ13871QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Greenlee-Chisel-Almost-new_W0QQitemZ260155562324QQihZ016QQcategoryZ13871QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/socket-chisel-JAMES-SWAN-1-INCH-tip-v-nice-tool_W0QQitemZ200139959237QQihZ010QQcategoryZ13871QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/buck-bros-socket-chisel-1-4_W0QQitemZ110162842718QQihZ001QQcategoryZ13871QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
All of the information is very insightful and invaluable so I appreciate it. There is quite a spectrum of opinions and there's not just one way that's the right way, whether it's vintage or brand new chisels. It makes for an interesting decision on which direction to go...
Being a novice and trying to accumulate the "necessary" tools, I think the big fear is to waste money on a tool that may prove to be inadequate in a short time, may not be a necessity due to alternative methods, or not being able to distinguish between two tools costing the same amount when one may have a woodworking advantage over the other, e.g. drill press. I think we can all agree that woodworking can be an expensive hobby so getting sound advice and/or the various opinions on tool purchases is a great asset, especially when you don't have woodworking clubs, mentors, etc. in your area like I do here in Houston--at least not that I'm aware of. Obviously, a set of chisels pales in price to a stationary power tool so a mistake at this level wouldn't be catastrophic.
To avoid turning this forum into an Ebay of sorts but if you're interested in selling either a set of bench chisels or individual chisels, please email me at [email protected]. Mel or Adam, I'd be interested in the Hirsch chisels if you're serious about getting rid of them.
Adam, speaking of the Narex chisels from LV, I noticed these but wasn't sure again of the quality of the chrome-moly chisel (Rc~58); although, a set of these is very inexpensive. As far as sharpening goes, that's definitely the other half to the equation so I'm considering my options there as well. Rockler has a set of diamond stones on sale for ~$76, which is what I'm leaning towards, but I've also heard good things with the scary sharp system. I'd prefer to sharpen chisels by hand for one, cost alone and two, to not rely solely on power tools for all opeartions in the shop.
Again, thanks for the insight--all was received very well...
Brett
Brett,
Nice message.The Hirsch set of bench chisels sells on Lee Valley for $112 plus shipping. You can have mine for $75 plus shipping. I have flattened the backs. I have sharpened them with Scary Sharp. I have not used a grinder on them. I have only used them on dovetails. I use the mallet but lightly. They are in excellent shape. Send me a message by clicking on "reply via email" if you'd like. Send me your zip code and I will get the price of shipping. Obviously no charge for "packing and handling". I am not trying to make any money here. If you buy my chisels, I get the LNs, and I am looking forward to that.Thank you very much.
MelHere is a long PS on sharpening, which you mentioned you are interested in. I have some opinions I would like to share with you. I have used Scary Sharp for years. It really works well. It's strong point is the large number of grits available, so that the jumps between them are small. Once you get the surface right on the rough paper, each other grit goes very swiftly, and you end up with a MIRROR surface by the time you get to 2000 grit. To me the only problem with Scary Sharp is that the sandpaper wears out quickly and must be taken off the glass, the glass cleaned, and new paper put down. This is "an inconvenience". It is not the end of the world. Most people I know use waterstones. They work nicely and are fast. I don't like the inconvenience of getting the tub of water and stones out, etc etc. They work very well.A month ago, I tried diamondstones because Philip Marcou said that he had been using them for a decade. Heck, if they are good enough for him, they are very probably good enough for me. Once I tried diamondstones, I immediately became a convert -- especially because the "extra course" grit. You can flatten the back of a plane blade or chisel very quickly on this stone. Then you move through Coarse, Fine and Extra Fine very quickly. These take water too, but only one or two spritzes. There is no big mess. I keep paper towels nearby to wipe the slurry off. When I am finished, I towel them off and leave them in a corner to air dry. I recommend the 8" or the 10" stones, not the 6" because there isn't enough length (for me). If you are doing chisels and plane blades, I recommend the "Duo Sharp Plus" stones with a different grit on each side. These have the little circles (holes) all over the faces of the stone, which give the slurry a place to collect. I have one with Extra Coarse and Coarse, and one with Fine and Extra Fine. (8 inchers.) Note that the Duo Sharp PLUS stones have an area at one end which is "Continuous" and not interrupted by the little circles. That area is GREAT for small chisels and gouges, since they tend to stick in the little circles. I highly recommend the Duo Sharp Plus over the plain Duo Sharp because of this. The 1/8" chisels, for example, have trouble with the circular holes on the rest of the stone. DMT has another line, called Dia Sharp which has a continuous later of grit. These are GREAT for carvers with lots of gouges, especially ones which are small and can get stuck in the little round "holes". After sharpening a lot of plane blades, chisel blades and carving gouges on both, I find that stones with the circular holes are the best for chisels and plane blades because there can be a lot of slurry and it needs somewhere to go. After you use the Green (Very Fine) stone, I recommend going to a leather hone with green (chromium oxide) honing compound on it. I made my own by gluing a piece of 2" wide, 18" long leather onto a piece of wood and then putting a "bench hook" on the bottom of the board on one end. I keep it handy all the time. The 18" length is non-standard but two swipes gets me back to carving. DMT also has a newer grit which they call extra extra fine, which takes things beyond the Green (Extra Fine) grit. It is 3 micron grit, and is very nice. Of course, these stones are more expensive than oil or water stones, and you might want to stop with the two stones that cover the four grits from extra coarse to extra fine. There is one surprise with Diamond stones. They have a break in period. They will be much more aggressive on the first few blades you use them on. After a few blades, they get down to their "normal selves", and they stay that way for a long time. From my research, they will stay that way forever for a hobbyist.If you have any questions, please let me know.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Scary sharp works best if you intend to use a jig. If freehand sharpening, it's too easy to cut the film if you don't keep the angle just right. With a good jig, this is the most idiot proof method of getting a sharp tool that I know of, and startup is around $75 including a good jig such as the Veritas Mk IIOtherwise, I would get a course/fine DMT diamond stone, and a
Norton 4000/8000 combo water stone. (this is what I use to freehand sharpen and I am VERY pleased)You can flatten the water stone using 220 wet/dry sandpaper on a FLAT surface such as a jointer bed or thick plate glass. The waterstone won't last forever, but it should give you many years of service. You could also get a norton arkansas stone (translucent) and a leather strop with honing compound. Arkansas stones stay flat and last a lifetime, however they cut more slowly than water stones and don't do as well with modern alloys such as A2 or HSS steel. If you plan to stick with high carbon steel for all your tools, this is a good option. Norton has exclusive ownership of the best quality arkansas stones, so buy from them. Tools for working wood carries a good selection. Most importantly, I suggest reading this before doing any sharpening:http://www.hocktools.com/sharpen.htmit's the best guide I've ever seen on the subject. good luck!vincent
I would trade all my other chisels for a single 3/8" Lie Nielsen. It can take a hit, it can pare, and it feels oh so sweet in the hand.
Brett,
Two cherries and Marples blue have been recommended as two types of (newly manufactured) chisel that are worth buying. I have some of both and would agree; the cherries keep their edge quite a while longer but the Marples are still OK for grunt work.
Both sharpen well and relatively easily (Marpels easier than cherries, as they seem to be slightly softer). The blue plastic handles of the Marples, with their moulded seam, are not too nice in the hand over long sessions. Gradually I will give these away, I think as the cherries are good for all the "ordinary" chisel work I do.
The cherries usually come with a spurious coat of varnish on both blades and handles. You can get it off with the wife's nail polish remover. This certainly improves the feel of the handles. Then you have to flatten backs and edges sufficiently to get rid of the slight dubbing caused by them polishing the things at the factory. Doh! They're still worth it, though.
If you're going to do a lot of fine paring (eg with fine dovetails or finger joints) the Blue Spruce chisels are very, very fine indeed. They have sharp side edges and can get in anywhere to pare, which the cherris can't as they have quite thick edges. Also the Sprucers are very well made; their A2 steel takes an edge easily and holds it for a long time. They are twice the price of cherries. I would say "worth it" - if you do those fine joints.
Never tried LN but lots of people like them.
Never tried Ashley Isles but many like them too - albeit there have been a few reports that the blades are not always straight and may need a lot of flattening (or they swap them for a better one, no questions).
***
I have tried most sharpening methods except waterstones (too messy and high maintenance for me). Like Mel I use diamond stones for any major (re)sharpening (repairing nicks or back-flattening) and scary sharp microgrit papers for honing. These methods are quick and mess-free.
Although I started scary sharp with sticky papers on glass, I now use unsticky microgrit paper on good quality mdf. This is quicker and cleaner as there is no sticking/unsticking. Also the paper can move a bit under the blade as you sharpen, which seems to eliminate tearing of the paper.
The resultant edges are just as good; mirror polished to 10,000 grit via 600 diamond > 1200 diamond > 2400 paper > 6000 paper > 10, 000 paper. It takes only half a dozen swipes on each of the papers-only to renew a previously jig-made microbevel, freehand. I only go to the diamond & jig again if a blade is nicked or otherwise dinged.
Plane blades so-sharpened will take 1 thou shavings; chisels will pare end grain to a shine and cut along or askkew the grain accurately and easily.
Lataxe
I buy good chisels because they are easier to use and do stuff cheap chisels don't. The rounded backs on Hirsch chisels for example don't allow you to sharpen the corner of the blade. This makes penetrating wood more difficult and you can't use that corner to create a nice crisp feature. Its like working with a dull chisel- the wood compresses and tears. If you are new to chisels, you could make a mess out of something with a tool like that.Another example: I tend not to mallet chisels. I push them with my shoulder or the heel of my palm and they sink into the wood. Its a nice way to work wood, but you can't do it with a dull tool. A marples chisel might let me use this technique for a 1/2 hour. My chisels will hold up for several hours. Now I think an argument can be made that you can sharpen Marples faster...I just don't like the interruption.Third example: Good hard chisels like Hirsch/Kirschen/two cherries will also let you get away with lower bevel angles. I'm convinced this too is a big and never discussed advantage.As I said in the other thread, I never know what is best for someone like Brent. But above is the reason I use "good" chisels and the reason i don't like cheap/soft chisels. Maybe he should buy cheap chisels (how about those Narex brand chisels?) because he may well ruin them learning to sharpen them anyway.Adam
Adam,
You made a number of good points.
I like your last point best. Maybe a newbie could best use a set of cheaper chisels. If you are going to ruin any chisels, best to do that with a cheaper set. He may learn to put the chisels to a grinder. No sense trying that out with $50 chisels. He can ry different bevel angles. Play more at the grinder. DDuring that time, he can watch EBay and see what is available. Then in a few months, he can get a really good set. That doesn't sound like a bad plan. Ultimately we all want a great set of chisels at a good price.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I have some nice japanese chisels, and also one of the lee valley chisels. The Lee Valley bench chisel is very good quality for the price. It doesn't stay sharp as long as the nicer japanese chisels, but it took very little effort to flatten the back, and it re-sharpens easily.
The balance and feel is good... I was skeptical about the resin handle, but it's actually pretty comfortable.
My 1st set was the IRWIN marples blue chip (4 for $25 from amazon). The lee valley chisel is clearly a step up from these in fit and finish.
Someone else mentioned ashley isles. I have some of their carving tools and they are fantastic. I don't think you could go wrong with their bench chisels. They are hand forged and very high quality. Two cherries also makes a nice set of 6. More expensive than the LV tools, but they will last a lifetime and you'll never need to upgrade.
Hand forged? Appears to be rather unlikely.
By the way, Two Cherries claims their chisels are hand forged, too.
My guess is that today any chisel that is forged in any way (drop forged, spring hammer forged, etc. as opposed to milled out of a chunk of metal) is called hand forged.
Chris Scholz
Galoot-Tools
http://www.ashleyiles.turningtools.co.uk/factory/factory.html(Looks like they use a spring hammer)You seem to be correct...I would say, however, that the ashley isles and two cherries manufacturing process is better than that of cheaper chisels such as Irwin/marples or the lee valley chisel. Any type of hammering helps provide better edge retention. I certainly love my carving tools
I will be purchasing two Cherries in the near future. Based on several factors (cost, hardness of steel and range of sizes) I feel they are the best value out there.
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