I’m in the process of finalizing plans for my dream bench using the Benchcrafted Leg vise and tail vise system. The bench will be a split Roubo style. What I would like is some input on bench dogs.
I’ve been a bit of a traditionalist regarding bench dogs and used the square dogs and prefer the look, but with all the interesting bench accessories designed for round holes I’m debating whether I should adapt my way of thinking. Since this will probably be the last bench I ever build and hope it passes down to my son one day I don’t want to regret my decision. I would appreciate any feedback anyone might have.
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Well, "es", I'm not aware of any "Kennel Master" empowered to decide what type of dog you must use although I do have a question and, perhaps, a suggestion or so. The first thing I did notice was that you didn't mention if you use holdfasts. If not, they were a metal "L" shaped work holding device used quite a bit in seventeenth and eighteenth century Roubo style benches and the smaller of the two sizes commonly available [⅝" & ⅞" diameter respectively] through Woodcraft or Rockler are designed to fit ¾" dog holes nicely. (The bigger ones require 1" holes.) Both require the dog holes to be at least 1½" deep. (I suggest both dog and hold fast holes be two inches deep or deeper.) While I understand very well the desire to build something you want to be passed down to (AND USED BY) your son [I'm 79 & about to build my final bench and hope my son will use it and pass it on to my grandson]. Just remember, you're building it first and foremost for your use and enjoyment. Don't forget, you can always have both square and round dog holes - even 1" holdfast holes - you just have to figure out where to and, more importantly, where not to put them. Just don't forget, it's always easier to drill more holes later than to try filling them.
My first bench, that I still use, has square dog holes, and the old Ulmia bench dogs. It was handy at times having those small Ulmia anvils for various tasks -- something you can't do with a wooden dog, especially a round one.
But square dog holes are a pain, and many needed fitting and adjustment. In a few, the dog would slip down too low, on its own. Some needed enlarging, as the dog wouldn't go down without excessive force, and then was hard to extract. And each hole needed a "step" because the top of the dog's were wider than the body.
When I built my second bench, I went all 3/4 round dog holes. It's just easier. They are never too tight or too loose. They swivel to hold irregular parts. I can use the dogholes with hold fasts, which you can't do with square holes.
Personally, I wouldn't make a bench with square holes.
Although it might look a bit odd, it is not technically impossible to do both.
I have square holes on one round on the other. Can’t see much difference but can see where round holes can be used for a bench hook.
I have wood dogs in square one, had to do over I’d get the steel ones from Lie Nielsen.
I think spacing may be more critical especially with tail vise.
I’ve got a few of those “accessories” and most are collecting dust.
Round dogs, some turned with round disc tops, some with square tops. The ability to pivot makes them more useful. I made two with cam tops that I use for small panel glueups.
FYI: LN does not make metal bench dogs, just wooden ones.
Rectangular for me. I assume that is what you mean by square. I make my own dogs. Use a thin strip of maple for a spring to hold it at the set height. Totally happy with mine.
My dogs are showing some wear and time to make some new ones but that is just a 10 minute job. Use up some scraps in the shop that would be burned.
Like others I have added a couple of round holes for holdfast. Had it do over I would do it exactly the same.
I built my dream bench using Benchcrafted's hardware and split-top Roubo plans, and went with the square dogs as described in their plans. Routing the dog holes took considerable care, but there are excellent instructions and videos on Benchcrafted's website. The dogs themselves are easy to make and I have found them very functional and headache free. In addition to the two vises, I find myself often reaching for my holdfasts which are of the classic design. With these, quality matters, and I found the ones from Gramercy to be high quality and function and a very good value.
Can I ask your opinion about the overall bench design? Are you happy with it? Is there anything you would change? I had been planning a slightly different design but after receiving the plans and researching their design it does have some benefits. Because more than likely I'll be vacating my current shop within 5 years the idea of being able to remove the top and knock it down to manageable parts is appealing. Do those stub tenons holding the top in place really do the job, they are a far cry from the traditional dovetails I had been planning?
esch5995, I've been very pleased with the design. Can't think of anything I would change. It does what it promises: holds all sizes of stock firmly and effortlessly allowing access to face, edge, and end. So easy to clamp, unclamp, reposition and reclamp. I do get plenty of use out of my 2 Gramercy holdfasts. I had not fully appreciated what a difference the mass makes. No movement. Rock solid surface for chisel work.
The stub tenons work just fine, are easy to fit and tune to the mortises in the top sections if you follow Benchcrafted's instructions and tips. The tops are heavy enough that you should have a second person help with this step.
I get real satisfaction from this bench on a daily basis and it saves me hours of figuring out how to hold things. I could go on and on, but let me just refer you to some of the good videos out there and say my experience supports that the design works as well as the presentations would suggest. I have no connections with Benchcrafted other than the hardware and plans I purchased from them.
Guido Henn's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pfm6URciYc
Frank Strazza's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfL6WKkFIsw
Benchcrafted's You Tube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCadEXjy33-bScydCrKJukAQ
Timely post....am halfway through a new bench to replace the ~28 year old bench I said I would replace ~ 15 years ago.
I went with square holes just last night when I cut them.
Using Lon Schleinings bench plans. He has four parallel rows of square dogs down the length That are used with a twin screw end vise with matching dog holes. He also has Two rows of round holes for the face vise to work with.
So yeah, it’s both!
I could not make up my mind either.
Cutting the square holes accurately was a bit of a project. Special sled, calculating the proper angle. Tonight I start the router template to cut the notch the Metal dog head fits in to when pushed below the bench top.
Picture of the sled I used to cut the slots and progress so far.
Mike
I have a traditional Ulma bench with square dogs and added round hold downs .I also have a home made bench with round dogs and hold downs.The round dogs were drilled with a maple "jig" that had 3 holes and I used it to drill 3 sets of holes across the bench.It now sits in my vice where I drilled 3 holes,put 3 dowels in the "jig" and acts as a wide Super Dog for hold ing wide pieces.I should devote as much time to making furniture and less to shop gizmos
Good thread. I'm interested in a reply to the question about the stub tenons holding the top. I have a basement shop, and there is no way to get something big and solid and heavy out of it.
Round for me. I found it less risky to bore 3/4” holes than fuss with square ones. I built my “last” bench last summer, my take on one of Schwartz’s Roubo design, but used round dogs. I’ve actually had great luck just using hardwood doweling I found that was just a hair oversized for the dogs which saved me on the turning I’d planned on doing. They friction fit (after a bit of sanding on the dowels) nicely. I put a wagon vise on one end so I’ve got dedicated dogs for each of the holes inboard of the vise. I’m in Ohio where it can get a touch humid and the only get a bit aggravating a couple of weeks in August.
I’m also satisfied with my Grammercy hold downs. I don’t know how thick your tops will be, but the hold downs weren’t happy with a 3/4 bore thru my 4” top. Found on Grammercy’s info page that for them to bite properly on a thicker top, the bottom of the dog hole needed to be 1”. No problems, but I did have to lay under the bench to do the counter bores for the two lonely holdfast holes since I’d already assembled the bench.
After using the bench for a year, I figured out where I’d most often appreciate the holdfasts. A couple of weeks ago, I added four more. As mentioned by others above, I believe, fewer holes to start with makes sense, add them as you get experience the your bench.
My top is attached with mortise and tenons, drawbored with 3/8” oak pins. Saw the dovetail approach and again figured it might be a problem with my experience level at the time.
Importantly, the pinned M&T joints (the top to the legs) are NOT glued. The theory is that I can drive the pins out and lift the top off if I’m doing a major move. I won’t be, but I too am hoping that one of my grandsons will grab the bench before my wife holds the auction. They all know the top can be separated. It’s solid as can be, and exactly what I’d do if I were building another.
Now my leg stretchers are also M&T drawbored, but those I glued. The base by itself is manageable for a move as is the top by itself. Together, it’s a beast.
MJ’s comment about turning dogs is on point IMO. I turned dogs for my previous bench and there’s flexibility with what you can do with the tops of the dogs.
Last, if it helps, you didn’t mention hardware. I’ve nothing to gain by promoting it, by I’m VERY happy with my wagon vise. Len Hovarter out of Michigan has, IMO, very good vise hardware. It’s a bit unconventional (thrust bearing mechanism) tho. I’m using his wagon vise. For my face vise, I built a leg vise using Hovarter’s X mechanism and a run of the mill vise screw bought online. I’ve never used Benchcrafted’s hardware but can’t imagine being any happier than I am now.
Best wishes with your build. Hope we get to see some pics as you progress!
My bench has square dog holes and round holes for the holdfast. I use the bench dogs a lot and the hold fasts fairly often as well. I wish the bench dog holes were round as well just to give a bit more flexibility on where I could use my hold fast. It doesn't bother me enough that I will glue in the square dogs and convert them to round ones.
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