Hi!
I am building my first bench with bigleaf maple which I had some good deal on.
They’re 6 inches wide and 2 inches thick and 8′ long.
I wanted to ask if you would rip these to 4 inches in width to make benchtop of 4 inches thick (and use the other ~2 inches of ripped pieces for some other purpose) or if you would just use the whole thing and make 6 inches thick benchtop.
The concern with 6 inch thick benchtop which is 8′ long is the weight. Most times weight is a good thing (as per all the books I have read) but just checking if 6 inch thick benchtop is generally considered too much.
What would you do?
Cheers!
Replies
Seawade,
I recently built a work bench out of hard maple. The design was based on Chris Schwartz's French Robo bench, (I hope I spelled that correctly.) in his recent book which I would highly recommend you read before making a decision. I made the top 5" thick and you're right, the bench is very heavy. I installed a very large eyebolt in the ceiling joist. I attached a chain hoist to the eyebolt and used this rig to turn the top and the completed bench.
In the instances where the boards were wider than 5" but less than 10"+, I glued two of the remaining pieces together to form the required 5". When I glued up the top, I made sure that these laminated boards were sandwhiched between two full boards and that the widest board in the lamination was on top. I'll include a couple of photos if I can figure out how the new system works.
Bob,
You are very new here on Knots. My suggestion is that before you ask a question which has been widely discussed and written about for centuries, that you do some research. That shows respect for those you are asking the question to. ) went to Google and typed in "Workbench thickness" and got 941,000 hits.
There are a number of books available on workbench design, and you can find plenty of information on the thickness of tops in them. Scott Landis' book is a good one. You can get it on Amazon for less than $7. It is entitled: The Workbench Book: A Craftsman's Guide to Workbenches for Every Type of Woodworking
Chris Schwartz' newer book is even better. YOu can get it on Amazon for less than $20. I can't imagine building a workbench without consulting these two books.
I would say that there are much more important questions than thickness of top. Have you made a list of the design issues and how you will solve each? Schwartz's book is excellent on how to design your bench for the things you want to do with the bench.
Diving into making a workbench without hitting the books first is like diving into a pool without checking its depth. Getting good information in books like those of Landis and Schwartz is easy, efficient and fun.
Getting good information on Knots is problematic. There are very smart and good guys here on Knots and there are a number of nutcases. You are new to Knots. How will you be able to tell which are which? I heartily recommend the books first. If you can then come up with some interesting questions in which you have become knowldegeable, then try Knots, and you will be better able to select among the answers.
Also, on Knots, it is good to provide some information about yourself when you are new to Knots and you ask a question.
I hope that helps. Good luck with your bench.
Mel
Hi, Mel. Did you borrow AZMO's crystal ball to determine Seawade hadn't already done research on the subject? ;-)
Sometimes people want to hear something from those that have had experience with a problem. They trust you more than something gained from a book. It is just a lot easier to ask here, than search through 941,000 Google hits.
It should be no more surprising that the same question should come up here than articles in Fine Woodworking keep trying to find new words to cover the same old topics. You have a lot to offer. Be a good teacher and move someone one step forward from where ever they start. It will go down a lot better than a senseless rap on the knuckles.
Peter
Seawade:
A workbench is a huge investment in time and materials. As others have said, definitely read up, think about the work you want to do, and thoughtfully plan your bench. The Chris Schwarz book, "Workbenches from Design & Theory to Construction & Use" is a must read. In addition to presenting two well thought out benches, Chris provides information about determining height, size, clamping surfaces, vice selection, and much more. Not only does he give advice on what to include in a bench, but also what to leave out.
A couple of suggestions. How about weighing a sample of the maple you have so that you can calculate the weight of the finished top if you make it 6" thick vs. 4" thick. You may find the weight of the 6" top impractical. Also, what clamping devices are you planning to use with the bench. If you intend to use some old time bench hooks you need to check with the manufacturer to be certain of the maximum thickness of top their product can be used with, I believe there is a limit.
Finally, don't worry about asking a question that has already been asked. It gives us old timers on Knots a new opportunity to think through our answers and just maybe give better advice than the first time around. A good workbench is one of the most important tools in your shop. Make the investment in research and planning to get it right.
gdblake
Yes, by all means, read the workbench books before making a final decision. But, FWIW, here's my (personal, non-expert) take.
A lot depends on how you'll be using the bench and what means you'll have to move it, if need be. For most purposes, 1.5" - 2" thick is probably adequate. That may be why commercially-made bench tops of that thickness are so common. A top 3" thick may be better for greater stability and weight, and for better hold-down retention. Anything thicker than 3" is probably overkill for most purposes, and may be so heavy as to be impractical. There are weight calculators (estimators) available online that may help in that regard.
You could rip the boards in half (3") and glue them up. The bench I am building has a 3" top by 30 ". You might have a problem with holdfasts gripping on a thicker top. I agree with others that you should find some of these books on workbenches, they offer a lot of great info'
MoIrning Seawade.... welcome. Everyone says you should read Chris Swartz's book on work-benches before you proceed. Not a bad idea but.. I am going to disagree somewhat. A work-bench is really a very simple build. You can look at the picture of one and should be able to build it without detailed plans.. etc. Ain't rocket science.
On your scenario.. here's my take. I have build 24 work-benches since 1972. Some for myself.. some for friends and some for sale. Every single one I used a top somewhere in the vicinity of 3". I would rip your maple in half.. joint both edges and you will have around 2 7/8" which is more than sufficient as over that is over-kill in both strenght and weight. You won't have a problem.
Frankly the base is just as important as the top as you have to build it very sturdy to avoid rack when hand planing. Throught tenons.. bridle joints..etc,. are great for strenght unless you are building one of those tear down benchs. The top on my workbench is 3" thick and southern yellow pine. It simply sits on the base with gravity and a 1" cone dowel on top of each leg post and a hole in the bottom that corresponds. If a 3" SYP top won't move or rack then a denser maple won't either.
So IMHO which ain't so humble on occasion.. over 3" is simply over-kill and as waste of good stock. Bottom line on a workbench is it is not a museum piece.. it's a work tool. Strong base with strong top. Once you get to that point put it to work...
Sarge,
You are the wise one and (more to the point) the wisdom comes from making and using many benches.
I would add only one... question, really: does an overthick top not invite more chance of warpage and therefore tedious bench reflattening work? I can imagine a 5 or 6 inch thickness getting a mind of it's own when humidity tickles it's little yellow cells......? Such thicknesses will have lots of curvy-swirly grain in them I fear. Even a thick laminate might harbour all sorts of strange internal tensions.
Lataxe
I would second the suggestions for reading Chris Schwartz's book before setting out on your adventure. I build mine 4 years ago fom some plans in Wood Magazine before I new hardly anyting about woodworking...I'm still amazed that it turned out so well. The top was premade maple I bought from Grizzly and is thick enough but if I was in your situation I would go with Sarge's suggestion of ripping them in half and going with2 7/8"...the other thing to pay attention to that hasn't been mentioned is the the width of the table...mine is three feet and being 5'7" it's a bit too wide, especially when I have to stretch across the table to reach the chisel rack.
Neil
The first of Sarge's pictures highlights a consideration that came to my mind when thinking about top thickenss - I often clamp things to the top of my bench and if the top itself is six inches thick that will be harder to do. I really can't imagine needing a top thicker than 2.5" - 3" for the sorts of things I work on.
Chris
Jerry,
Part of coming to Knots is to get Mel'd. It's a form of what you lads call hazing I think.
Anyroadup, once fellows have got tired of pompous drivel in large barrowloads, they may use the "ignore" switch. Ah, bliss!
One day someone will give him a magic mirror, the kind that forces you to see yourself as you really are.
Lataxe
Never buillt one that wide and thick Lataxe but... my common sense tells me it could sag and have had 2 I can remember do so... That is why I use my "whale-back" beam under the center from end stretcher to end stretcher. It's 5" wide and 4' thick. Basically it cuts the center weight of my top into two 12" sections in lieu of a 24". I have been using this design since the mid 90's and haven't had one sag since... I will post a better picture of the "whale-back" as I call it (actually picked up the term form Ed Harrison the retired Navy copter pilot). It also ties the entire base together without a top so there is absolutely no rack at all even with the top removed.
And you are correct about concern over width Neil... I prefer 24" which is wide enough but not too wide to have to stretch. If I need extra throw a piece of double lam ply on top I keep on a wall and clamp. I really don't need more as I have both a 36" and 48" wide assembly table. God blessed me with enough space.
Clamping is a large issue with me also Chris.. You are so correct about to much thickness can give you a problem on occasion wiith clamps. Toe space is also an issue with me as I want at least 3" on each side so I design the base for such. I hate to stump my toe on the base of a bench which should have been considered in the initial design...
Here ya go Mr. Lataxe.. a better view of a "whale-back" beam but you still have to do a little visualazation and give what you see some thought. The ends are simply tied to the stretchers with bridle jpints or what I refer to as saddle joints...
Thanks for all the replies!
Kenneth it's nice looking bench! It's what I had in mind, thick and solid. :-) 2 inch thick benches I tested
at the Lee Valley and other places slid when I push it with tiny pressure, didn't like that much. I am guessing
5" definitely helps right?
Mel, sorry I forgot introduction.
This is my first post ever in my life in woodworking forum and I'm very new to woodworking but have been crafting. I usually use plastics when I make stuff, tanks, airplanes, modeling sort of stuff and making molding for such. Not sure if it's a plus or not yet.
I got hooked in woodworking seeing David J Marks show. Never had proper training yet except from my pseudo teachers, David, Andy, Chris and 50+ others from amazon and library.
I have purchased and referencing from Chris' blue book also, this is the 2nd book I've purchased among 4 books on bench alone. This book (the blue book), is recommended so many places so I thought I could skip mentioning that I have read it. But yeah.. of course I have read it.
Chris' book especially helped novice like myself in deciding what option to go with. While other books show me lot of options, it leaves choices up to me. (which was.. kind of hard for me because I do not have enough experience to tell which one is better for me)
But Chris' book when I read it, it's almost like he gives me options but also chooses what to go with. (way I personally feel it) He almost sounds (to me again; personally; flame flame :-) like if you go other way, something wrong with you. So it was very helpful to choose some options, I could totally see his intentions.
I searched around and see many people are trying 4" and even some of the plans I have purchased also has thickness default at 4" in their design (BenchCrafted for example). I searched some time but have not seen people having more than 6" though. Probably because of some reason, just wanted to find out the reason why. To go that route and overbuild it if the reason is only that it's overkill but nice to have.
I can kinda live with problems like..
- I push down dog down and it's stuck in the middle because bench being thick
- I need longer clamps because benchtop already took 6" off the capacity
if it will give something back for being thick.
By the way I am making modified version of bench from benchcrafted with their vises, leg and sliding tail.
Leg flush with the table as always, but without middle split. Instead tool strip will be there and with built-in vacuum connector and leveling cover blocks that I can put 90' to use tool tray as push stop.
It *might* have storage cabinet (drawers) though, I am still so can not decide on this yet. If I put cabinet, it will be again, flush to the table and will have holes in front (no handles) so that it can replace sliding deadman.
Deadman's coffin I will call it.. for occasional replacement use of deadman.
Sargegrinder, thank you for your input now I have really think about making bench 3" too (agg more complexity, it was either 4" or 6" :-), I wasn't even born when you started making bench, if it was overkill for you that long it's overkill for me for sure I think...
Thanks!
Sean Lee
Seawade,
Your are correct, bench doesn't move! While this is a benefit, it poses a problem when you want to reposition the bench. To solve this problem, I constructed two dollies that fit under each end of the bench and fit under each end stretcher. When I want to reposition the bench, I jack up each end with a car jack, slip the dollies in place and it rolls effortlessly. I'll be happy to attach some photos if you would like to see how they are configured.
By the way, you should know that Chris Schwartz is very approachable. I emailed him several times with questions during the construction of my bench and he responded in a timely manner with good insight and advice. You may have a need to do the same.
I also planned to install the wagon-wheel tail vise. As you probably already know, these vises are beautifully made and work very smoothly. I purchased the vise but in the end, I decided not to include a tail vise in the bench.
Good luck with your bench.
Hi!
Wow it is heavy enough to use car jack? ouch. I had similar thought but it was to go under bench and lift little bit with my back to have the table up a bit. I was going to have heavy duty ball bearing socket under the leg (without ball; just socket so its not showing when leg on floor) and when I wanted to move, I was going to roll in a metal ball into it...
All these things in my head however I have never tried :-) I'm still waiting for the vise to arrive and getting excited!
This weekend I am going to stack up materials and try to lift it or put on scale to fine out how much its going to weight as RalphBarker suggested also..
It's so good to know you and Chris and so many others are around, thanks for so many advices!! (Although Chris looks and sounds like my old boss always giving me hard time so kinda hard to approch lol)
Cheers!
Sean - you can easily estimate the weight of the top. Big Leaf maple is reported to be about 32 lbs/cubic ft density. So a 4"x30"x72" top weighs in at about 158#. Then you have the rest of the support structure. My problem has always been what I put in the support structure!!! My bench could have a 1" top and 3 people couldn't push it!!!
If you want to see a short video on the "romance aspects" of a workbench and hand tools, go to the wWoodcraft site and check out the video associated with Sjoberg workbenches. Heres a link http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2005401/2005401.aspx?tab=videos#videos
Jerry
Ahh I see, thank you for the information, I just calculated using what you thougt me and ended up 320lbs just for top... 6x30x96.. probably will end up somewhere around 500lbs..(if I skip cabinet under..)? ouch that's about same as my jointer weight..... Now I have to think about it real hard.. everytime I had to move jointer without roller it was a real pain of pains.
Ouch Ouch, now I know why I would need car jack..
You know you have a real problem when the concrete starts to buckle around the legs. ;-)
Sean.. my 3" benches of
Sean.. my 3" benches of southern yellow pine require one person on each end to lift and remove. A 6" bench would be twice the weigh and again IMO.. not necessary. Again I will emphasize the base needing to be just as sturdy as the top. My fnal test on a base is too have my son and 3 of his croonies stand at each corner of the bench. $20 each if they can push.. pull. jerk.. pass gass.. etc. that will allow the base to rack even slightly before the top is even put on.
Ain't going to happen as the bench is self supporting with my whale-back and I put a piece of that router matt stuff under each foot so it can't slide under extreme duress of 4 testerone filled young men. At that point I add the top which sits up there with gravity and the 4 1" bullet head dowels.
Good luck...
Thanks, Sarge -- I'm designing another bench and the bullet-head dowels are a great idea.
BTW, like you, I'm using SYP -- about 2.75 thick (that's what the two Wilton vices I have need for mounting) ripped from 2x10s and laminated, 3x3s for legs, 2x6s for stretchers.
If I may make a suggestion Leon.. I also use the 2 x 10's. But.. I rip about 1/4" off each edge to get rid of the round-over then rip a hair over 3" off each side. When I select the 2 x 10 I try to find straight on the shelf with the pith in the very center as //////0\. But after you rip the two 3" pieces here's what you are left with after the choice cut.... /////// and \\ or two pieces with quarter sawn cut which is stalbe. The pith is not stable so either use it on a construction project or throw it away which you can do with the cheap price of SYP. Well.. at least down south. ha.. ha...
Good luck and hope that helps...
Thanks, Sarge.
I'd planned on ripping the roundover off, your suggestion about cutting for quarter or rift sawn is excellent and I will do so.
Edit: leftovers will turn (that's a pun) into file handles and Christmas ornaments.
35 years ago I built my workbench out of yellw birch. They were offcuts from the ribs of a fishing boat (stern dragger) that my BIL was having built. The top ended up being 1 5/8" thick, dog holes, (2) old record bench vises (bought as scrap from a school that burned) as front & end vises. With a lower shelf spanning the length of the bench, piled with 35 years of accumulated hardwood scraps, It is plenty heavy & stable enough for bench-type work - hand planing, securing & trimming/cleaning up door/face frames, etc.
More thicker, more better.
What's your criteria for determining how thick the benchtop should be? That will help answer your question.
I can't imagine any hand planing, hand sawing, or chiseling operation that would require such a thick top. If a thinner bench top would suffice, the extra wood could be used for furniture, another benchtop for a neighbor, . . .
I built last summer the European workbench detailed by Frank Klausz in "The Workbench Book" and it has been everything I hoped. There is a thicker front section (4" thick?) and any chopping of dovetails is done over the right trestle base. The remainder of the benchtop is thinner. The bench does not slide about during use but I can move it if necessary.
Hi Seawade.... As several members have pointed out... 1- read the various books, 2- most commercial benches are around 2" thick and 3- you don't want it so heavy that you need an opverhead crane to move it.
Before going crazy with the top, keep in mind that many woodworkers have gone through 2 or 3 or more benches. No they haven't worn them out, it's just that as they have progressed in this hobby (occupation) their needs have changed. If your main interest is building small wooden toys, foot-stools and similar small stuff, a solid-core door will be sufficiernt. If you're planning to building large pieces of furniture and do LOTS of hand-planing, then a heavier, larger bench is called for. More likely, you'll want to change the height of the bench and the layout (style) of the bench legs several times as you learn and progress.
Build a sturdy top, but don't overbuild. A top 2 to 2 1/2 inches thick will have enough weight to be solid and not warp and will be thick enough so you can plane it level several dozen times and still serve you well. After the top is built you are going to need to flatten it. If the top weigh several hunders pounds, your friends are not going to help you move it again and again.
SawdustSteve Long Island, NY (E of NYC)
As a simple answer to your question -- I have a top that is +- 2.25 incyhes thick, by22 inches wide x 10 ft long. It workes very well withy dogs and holdfasts (using round holes). Clamps can be used easily. It is more than heavy enough to be stable. It has three sets of legs, all carriage bolted on.
Joe
I would not let Mel git you down. His post almost made me think he was the publisher of both books as he pushed them very hard. I have built several and prefer a min thickness of 3 inches and a max of 6 inches. I also prefer a top size of 3 ft wide by 4 6 ft long. It comes down as to what you prefer verses a standard. even the high has to be what you want and what is best for when you are working on the table. Build what you believe will work best for you and you can always modify it if something is not correct for you.
When did Mel take power? Did I miss the election or did he roll his tanks into the Capital?
My two cents: The grain orientation of your 2"x6" stock will speak to the question of whether to break them down, as will your access to a jointer and planer. The more you break them down, the less it should move out of flat after glueup. If the 2x6s are flatsawn I would opt to cut them up and do the reverse-the-rings thing for glueup.
I built my benchtop 20 years or so ago out of half of a tavern shuffleboard table when the place was sold and had to be cleared out. It is a lamination of 3/4" x 3" boards and was designed to stay flat for the game and has kept its promise as a bench.
The top is 31"x58" with heavy breadboard ends (sized to the stock) and put a cast iron vise on the left and a wagon vise on the right with rows of round dog holes for each. I built a new base last year, after going through about 5 books including Mel's faves. My wrinkle is an added leg on the right end in plane with the front edge, allowing me to clamp long stock with the face vice and a holdfast. The base is 3" thick SYP from a reclaiming yard, a 150 year old factory teardown was the story I got. I cut heavy M&Ts which I drawbored with brass rods.
I added upper stretchers for stability and the top sits on bullet dowels with one lag screw at each end. The stretchers also limit the size of a planned lower chest of drawers so I'll be able to clamp to the top without locking the upper drawers.
Mel--That was a rather unfriendly introduction, doncha think?
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