I searched the archives but didn’t find anything relevant to vise selection. I’ve got to believe that you folks have vises on your benches. There seems to be two vise designs for woodworking, one is just an acme screw and guide rods & hardware, these seem to be more ‘traditional’ of the two. The other vise design has steel faces to mount to the bench and a wooden vise jaw and typically inlcudes a quick release mechanism. The quick release bench vises cost slightly more (or considerably more depending) and seem to be heavier duty. Which is preferrable? I’m building myself a real woodworking bench with bench dogs etc. and want to mount the best vises on the bench. Does anybody have a preference? Why? Lastly, is the Veritas Twin Screw vise really worth the money? The bench will be used for cabinet work, furniture building, building doors, etc..
Thanks, JJ.
Replies
I have traditional tail and shoulder vises (acme screws with wooden faces). I like them a lot, if I had to do it over again, I would keep the same setup. That being said, different people have different preferences due to their style of work and their experiences. So there may not be any right answer here as to which is preferable. By the way you can get quick release hardware for traditional shoulder vises as well.
Hello Jeff,
I have just got my first vice for christmas, it is a york vice made from cast iron and steel and it opens to 14" and is quick release which is the reason I bought it, it cost me £50 ($87.01) I have fitted it with two ash jaws 21" long 1" wide and it works excellently i'll try to get some pictures tomorrow to show you the set-up.This is the sort of thing I would recommend to anyone, however there is some play in the jaws which is fairly minimal but still something to think about.
Hope This Has Helped,
Sawdust.
'It's not a mistake It's a design feature'
JJ, I've been designing my bench to build later this spring and settled on a traditional bench vise and a pair of shoulder vices rather than a twin screw tail vice. This arrangement will give me the benefit of clamping wide pieces by using both vices or using a single vice when working a single board. It also provides more options whn working with irregular pieces. The cost is about the same.
Can't imagine woodworking without a tail vise. Although on my first bench (2x4's face laminated) the screw for the tail vise was 2.25" 2 tpi wood thread - very fast acting and great clamping pressure. Newer bench top has metal tail vise screw and I miss the 2 tpi.
No experience with the Frank Klaus style "dogleg" shoulder vise.
At the other end from the tail vise I have a quick release metal shoulder vise. (My first woodworking vice years ago had front and back metal faces with pop-up dog. Tossed it after denting a number of chisel edges and saw teeth.) Since then my shoulder vise has always been the style with threaded screw, pair of guide rods, and metal front face to which wood inner face is attached. First shoulder vise was economy model from Woodcraft about 15 years ago. Always worked okay, occasionally had to add lubrication. Bought another Woodcraft economy quick release shoulder vise last fall and it was constantly binding, had cheap workmanship inside. Returned it and got their $160 or so quick release shoulder vise and it works like greased lightening! It's double the price of the "economy" model but worth the cost, if using it every day.
When I finally was able to began to put together a shop, I decided to buy a bench rather than build my own because I had too may other things to build. So I purchased a bench to fit the space I had in front of a double window. Actually sightly wider than the window but would fit nicely in front of it so that I would/could look outside whenever I wanted. See the dogs, deer, etc. I did not think about vises (one of my vices is I want to be outside almost all the time) although it has one on the left front and one on the right end as you face it looking out the window. Both are wooden jaw types with a center screw and two guide rods, one on either side of the screw. You know the type. They are on just about every workbench you can buy.
Now that I have used it for 3 - 4 years, I have a beef and would certainly consider something different. The type of vises I have RACK! You can make do by putting a piece of wood of the same thickness in the vise on the off side, if you can hold your work piece and the extra piece and tighten the screw at the same time. Sometimes you can. But the better the piece of wood, the more likely it will be dropped to the floor and a corner will be mashed. And it helps to have a extra piece of wood exactly the same thickness.
It's a minor inconvenience, but never the less, you asked and I would fine something different next time. Perhaps a tail vise, I don't know, but I would like to try one out. I have tried to attach a picture of my bench so that you can see what I'm talking about.
Rusty
Without doubt, the three-rod style shoulder vice will rack. I try to keep T-blocks of different thicknesses available.To avoid racking, look at the dogleg style shoulder vise on Frank Klaus' workbench in "The Workbench Book". Every style of vice will have its advantages and disadvantages - to have the best of all worlds one would have to have two or three different workbenches with different vices.
BINGO. Multiple benches for different purposes.
The woodworking bench is next up on the project list, hence the vise questions, however...
I reload ammo to feed my trap & target shooting/hunting habits as well, so I recently completed a reloading bench. This bench is my third attempt (in 15 years) at designing and building the 'perfect' bench for reloading. Following the woodworking bench, I will be building a mechanics bench with a imbedded (small) solvent tank on one end and a mechanics vise, bench grinder, and drill press mounted in different locations. It may turn out that I will need two woodworking vises to satisfy different aspects of woodworking, if so then so be it. We'll see how well one bench works out and what compromises I may be forced to live with. I don't do well with compromises, so we'll see what happens.
BTW, I could be having 'way to much fun'...
Has anyone here thought about making a modular workbench? If a top is assembled that is too large for most uses but has two or three sections that are removable, additional sections could be made for specific purposes. If a tail vise is needed on occasion, that section could be swapped for one that allows crosscutting or some other use. The top would use connectors that draw the sections together as well as fastening it to the base and there could be some adjustability in case the top surface of the sections don't line up due to wear. The base would also be expandable so it would never be too short for the sections being used. An alternative to an expandable base is one that has a pair of gate legs where a section is being added.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
That is the idea with which I am playing now. For years I have used an old counter top screwed to a failed toy chest as a workbench. For a vice, I used my workmate which was also an assembly table.
As I use more hand tools, I feel the need for more bench.
I am thinking of making the workmate a tail vice on a shortish bench, and having extra length which can be added on with pins or some such.
You can buy bench screws from woodworking tool houses, Grizzly for instance sells them for $30. ea
http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2006/Main/220
Take two of these and fab yourselves an industrial strength workmate style table for woodworking using these bench screws....
Just a thought....
JJ
I saw the sticker on the dust collector, I'm fanatic clays shooter also. What's your average? What gun?
If I'm not cuttin', I'm Shootin'! Just kidding. But all kidding aside, I do shoot quite abit and compete in sporting clays and fitasc mostly. Neither of these two games use averages since the targets vary so much.
Tried alot of different guns, but always go back to a beretta O/U. Currently I am shooting a 32" DT10 choked at IM and IM unless it's a real close rabbit. Then I use a clyinder choke. Only ones I carry, that way I don't have to think about whether another choke might be better. Sorta of a modification of dancing with the one you brought. I use 1 oz shells, 7.5 shot, 1200 fps. I have an Beretta SO5 that also has 32" barrels and I am working on the stock fit for it now. Of course, I've been working on it for over a year.
Rusty
Understood, I just keep my own average at the club shoots. The ranges at our club are pretty long, we have a sadistic range master based on his ever changing presentations. I'm a Browning fan, a few of Citori's, the latest is a 525 sporting with 32"'s. I've been sticking with M/IC and just very the loads, the spreaders are great for the rabbits. The other club is very short, I use my skeet gun, an old Citori fixed bore 26" Sk/SK with 8's @ 1200 fps, short and quick but a lot of fun.
Nice shop by the way.
I recomend Scott Landis', The Workbench Book. The great thing about his book is that it really gives you a feel for what benches and their corresponding vises were most appropriate for given styles of work. It was invaluable in helping me design my own bench.
Jeff, the bigger questions are, what kind of work will you do most, what kind of bench do you need and what kind of vises do you need? As mentioned prior read the Taunton pubs book or books there may be two. These will give you the history and development of good benches-by purpose-and the vises that support those needs and the means to decide a direction for yourself. Good luck, Pat
Great input, I REALLY appreciate all your comments. Great looking workbench and shop in the picture.
I had not thought about damaging a cutting tool on a metal dog, good point. I expect most use of the vises will be for holding wood stock for cutting, carving, and planing.
I have the The Workbench Book by Landis on order, expect to receive it any day now. I think I'll hold off buying any hardware until I read the book as recommended. One decision I have made though, after reading the comments, I think I'll forgo the cheap rout and whatever style vise I buy, I'll get quality hardware. I know I'll be glad I did every time I turn a vise handle...
JJ
I have a couple of Emmert pattern makers vises. I suugest you look at the cloned copies selling at Woodcraft, and other. I wouldn't want any other vise on my bench. Depends on your needs for a vise. I have no use for a traditional bench and vise but that's just me. Mostly, I think it is what you get used to.
I think your vise selection depends to a large extent on how much you intend to do by hand. I've been writing (well,....spouting off) about this subject for many years now. PW and its ad-less spin off "Woodworking" has published many good articles on bench design and construction. In my opinion, these articles have far surpassed Scott Landis coffee table book. So be sure to track those articles down.
Back to your bench:
Let's put it this way, the vises guys are using and companies are selling are only okay for people who don't do ALL their work by hand. Once you cross that line (i.e. using all hand tools), the concensus view becomes useless and detrimental. This has been a very frustrating realization for me. There are a whole host of methods and vise designs other than those mentioned here already, each with their own advantages and disadvantages that can be used. I think its pointless to open this pandora's box if you mill lumber and make joints with machines.
If you want to be able to work by hand efficiently in the future, whatever bench design you come up with today may or may not work then. There's a really bright line between kinda working by hand and working by hand in terms of workbench design.
So just for an example, I have a tail vise and I absolutley hate it. Its completely inadequate for heavy planing and it gets in teh way of the cross cut sawing I do at the rhs of my bench. If you weren't doing those two things you may be inclined to love it. Since I stick moldings by hand, I like having a flat front of my bench- i.e. no LH vise to run into. My bench is also too short for my work. I sized it to the project, I should have sized it to the stock.
I recognioze that I'm not the typical woodworker and all this may be irrelevant to you. I just want you to know that there's this whole other thing out there on this subject.
Adam
Adam,
Following up on your post, what vises would you recommend to the woodworker that works exclusively by hand? I realize that different vises are appropriate for different tasks. But how would you outfit a bench to provide the best options for the handtool worker (even if it didn't cover everything)? Put another way, if you had to use one bench (and one bench only), what vises would you put on that bench and why?
I think my quick answer would be no vises. The face vises just get in the way of jointing/edge straightening and all molding type activities. And these operations are too importnat to sacrifice for ...what? What do face vises do well?The key to a good bench is getting it the right height and right length- LONG. If you buy 8' stock you should have at least an 8' bench.The french style bench (moxon/felibien/roubo)- (thick top, often flush front legs) is great because its easy to clamp to. This is the type in Pennsbury Manor. A single planing stop and a half dozen holdfast holes and you can really get to work. Traditionally these have a hook (crochet) on the left side. These are okay, but a holdfast in the same spot works just as well and is removable.The english bench (nicholson) is good because its light and can be made quickly with construction lumber. This is the type in Wmsburg. The deep front apron provides the bending and racking stiffness needed. The traditional Nicholson vise is a joke and should be rebuked, ridiculed and then skipped. A crochet would work on this bench as would a hold fast in the same spot.Either bench benefits from a large (meaning wide) wooden twin screw. A garterless design provides the most flexibility. There's no benefit and only disadvantage in having this vise on the left. It would work just as well on the right or even left end (right end is for sawing).All of these very simple basics should have been covered in Landis book. Chris Schwarz recently built a Roubo style bench in 'Woodworking". He even quoted me (which was a sort of silly inside joke). Why tail vises don't work:
1) they get in the way of sawing.
2) They don't provide any support for a board that needs to get planed cross grain. You can put a batten or hold fast back there, but then why have the tail vise at all? I have a tail vise and I thik its an awesome vise for misc stuff. Its a very strong design, maybe stronger than all others in pure crushing force. But if I didn't have it (when I don't have it - since I work on Pennsbury's french benches regularly enough) I don't miss it.So a nice sturdy table, a few holdfasts, a few hand screws, and some scrap wood for stops and battens and you're set. That's my advice.Adam
I also would still like to know what vises you believe are best suited to hand work on a workbench. Maybe I'm naive, but, I do machine work on machines. If I've got a workpiece clamped to my bench, it is to do 'hand' work with planes/scrapers/chisels, most of the time.
After doing some reading on workbenches and their history, I've made one significant change so far, to incorporate round dog holes instead of square, so that I can use hold fasts where ever I need to on the bench. Perhaps that is partially the answer to which vise, good use of hold fasts? Perhaps the better question is which clamping hardware, not necessarily which vise! Regardless, I need to be able to clamp a workpiece and have it solidly anchored in place. I hate having to 'chase' a workpiece around when I'm trying to do critical work by hand. Vises seem most suited to applying maximum clamping pressure...
Thanks.
JJ
Adam,
It's interesting that you cite your hand work requirements as the reason for not liking a tail vise, or a front vice. Nearly every 18th or early 19th century bench has both. Could you explain how these traditional means of holding wood for handwork are not sufficient for your needs? And how do you hold the work, on your bench?
Thanks,
Ray Pine
"It's interesting that you cite your hand work requirements as the reason for not liking a tail vise, or a front vice. Nearly every 18th or early 19th century bench has both."
We have very few images of period shops. I can count those I have seen on my two hands. I don't recall seeing any with tail vises. I have seen face vises on many but not all. Roubo showed an elaborate tail vise (he called it a German bench) and the 18th c Dominy bench has one. With so few sources, I'm more reluctant than you are to say with certainty what was typical. Using the source materials available to me I'd have to disagree and say tail vises were not typical, and vises were a slim majority over crochets.
But I get your point- We know they existed so how did they manage with a feature I find annoying? That's a good question...Well I have a tail vise on my home bench, which is a disgusting cross between a german and a french bench. It incorporates the worst features of both designs! I manage tolerably well. The tailvise gets in the way of cross cut sawing and does little or nothing for me for planing. I like its strong jaw, though. So the addition of a tail vise doesn't instantly render a bench useless. I prefer benches without them and think they aren't worthteh trouble or expense. But one does have to wonder why anyone living in the pre-industrial age would go to the trouble of attaching one. Just in terms of planing, its a very complex way to do something one can do better more simply (that's a heck of a sentence!)
How do I hold things? Well that's a long story. I hold many things many different ways. In general, I use strategically located stops that directly oppose my effort. So for basic face planing operations, I push left into a wooden planing stop and back into either a holdfast or two, or a batten or two, held by the holdfasts. For edge work, I support the stock from underneath on pegs or HF's in the legs and then forward into a leg vise. A crochet or holdfast in the same location as my leg vise would work just as well. For sawing I use a bench hook or saw horses. Its nice to have a vise for misc joinery sawing, though a crochet or hand screws can work just as well. I have two interchangeable face vises, a garterless twin screw and leg vise. Both are easily removeable and are often both removed.
I find flexibility better than infelxibility. So Tage Frid's shoulder vise would really limit me, as would his tail vise and short bench length. How does one plow a groove in a board on such a bench? Many or most of the benches in the workbench book would be inadequate for basic stock preparation with hand tools. Few have provisions for edge work for example. These are benches for people who have power tools. Somehow, we've allowed them to convince us their benches are "traditional".
I think the bigger story here is that when it comes to hand tools, the conventional wisdom often doesn't apply. The reason for this is the disturbing reality that the overwhelming majority of woodworkers use machines. When placed in a shop with none and tasked to complete a carcass or chair or kitchen cabinets in a reasonable amount of time, ones' perspective on such subjects necessarily changes.
Adam
Adam,
The period benches I've seen have nearly all been here in the Shenandoah Valley, which was settled by both British and German immigrants. I guess I've looked at probably two dozen 19th century or earlier benches. I'll agree that tail vises become more common into the 19th century.
For my own use, I find a tail vise to be very useful. The fact that the work is held by dogs, below the face of the board, allows me to plane end to end, and edge to edge, without having to dodge or reposition a holdfast. I have a stop at the end of my bench, but find that smoothing a top for instance, requires continually changing planing direction, which is easily done if the work is secured between dogs, more of a pain to keep reversing the work so you are planing against the stop.
My bench has a vertical leg vise which I use to support one end of the stock when working its edge. The other end I support with a peg projecting from the edge of the bench top, or from the bench's other leg. I've seen holdfasts used to do this in lieu of a vise, but the possibility of marring the face of the work would put me off using one. Much less having to hold the work in position, hold the holdfast in place, and give it a whack with a mallet all at the same time.
The old (19th c) bench that I inherited from my father in law has both a tail vise and a leg vise. The leg vise is slanted. This I'm told is useful for a house joiner, as it makes holding doors or paneling sections easier, when working their edges.
Conventional wisdom as you say, is just that. If we are doing something as unconventional as working wood with hand tools, there is something to be said for tradition. The trick is to figure out why the tradition was established in the first place, and what has since changed to make the "improvements" seem so good. Then, we have to decide where, along that continuum, we want to set ourselves down.
Regards,
Ray Pine
I really appreciate what you wrote, especially that last bit. I try to stay as close to traditional as i can thinking that I'll discover somee of teh whys one won't have access to otherwise. I'm just completing the reconstruction of a sandstone grinding wheel from Roubo for example. I'm going to try sharpening my tools with it and some really old indigenous English stones and see where it leads me.Meaning no disrespect, I sincerely doubt you have encountered an 18th c bench or anything even close as these are extremely rare and especially so in the Shendandoah valley. But to be safe, if you know of some, please document them with a few photos- and email them to me directly. You may be encoutering something exceedingly rare. I know some scholars in this field that would love to see 18th c benches. There were probably as many as 100 cabinetshops in Philadelphia in the 18th century- not average carpenters mind you or part time farmers, but real full time cabinetmakers and not a single bench or tool chest as been uncovered. The Dominy bench is the only American 18th c bench I know of. There are only a handful of documented 18th c tool chests. If you are encountering things that you suspect may date to this period, please contact me and I will foward this information to the appropriate places.adam
Adam,
I'll see what I can some up with. No promises, because I don't have a digital camera, and documenting workbenches hasn't really been a priority. I was speaking from my recollection of the past thirty or so yrs, since I started working wood full time, and certainly didn't make any notes on the many old benches I've seen in that time, in tool collections and antique shops. So it will take a while.
I will say that the valley has always been known for its reluctance to accept innovation, especially if that means throwing something out. There are good and bad things about such a mindset! And while it may have been made by part time farmers, there is enough high style furniture known to have been made here in the valley to support the idea that there were professionally trained craftsmen working here in the 18th century.
Regards,
Ray Pine
I was actually just reading something about this....where was it? Well the author said you really can't tell rural furniture from urban furniture judging from its quality or craftsmanship. I would suspect a rural craftsman would have invested his time in sophisicated and easy to skip shop appliances. Ditto for specialty tools. The economics of the part timer, professionally trained or no, just don't allow for such things. So again, I would be shocked to see benches with tail vises dating to the 18th c or early 19th c in Virginia at all. I would be less surprised if something like this turned up in Philly, of German origin perhaps. So far, I haven't seen anything like it. (I should check the mercer museum) I always wonder what was lost when I-95 was constructed thru Philly.
Adam
Adam,
Well you've piqued my interest, for sure. I'll have the opportunity by the end of March, to talk to several collectors who are in the know about such things. Actually, I'd think it more likely to find older tools intact here in the country, than in the inner city area of any large metropolis. That's where the Dominy shop turned up isn't it? East Hampton was a rural backwater.
Out of the context of the shop itself, it becomes more difficult to date a bench that only shows evidence of hand technology. How would you date a bench with wooden screws, vertical leg vise and tail vise, if there were no circular sawmarks or cut nails? Roubo's third ed apparently shows such a beast. And does it really matter whether such a bench was first used in 1775 or 1810? The technology was essentially the same, although the furniture being built was stylistically different.
I'll agree that the tail vise and bench dogs were the "new, improved version" that did away with the need to move holdfasts around so the worker could access the whole face of the stock being worked. Just when that version came into widespread usage, is harder to pinpoint. It's not as if innovation in workbenches was prohibited until 1801, or that conservative craftsmen couldn't continue (like you) to prefer their holdfasts after that date.
Regards,
Ray Pine
I have a Yost patternmakers vice and a John Nyquist style tail vice, (see "The Workbench Book" by Scott Landis). I love them both. The new copies of the patternmakers vices look pretty good, they sure offer lots of clamping options and I think they will work for most type of woodworking. Also, they cost less than the model 52 Record I have on an assembly table, thats progress for you.
JJ,
Like Adam, I do all of my wood working with hand tools -- for a variety of reasons -- but I am a hobbyist woodworker.
I'm going to have to disagree with a couple of Adam's statements. My bench has a traditional L-shaped tail vice, as well as a front/face vice on the left hand front side of the bench. I find both vices to be extremely useful and versatile.
The main difference, I suspect, is that Adam has his bench against a wall (I am making an extrapolation here, based on his recent article on traditional workshops and reading between the lines in his posts in this thread; please correct me if I'm wrong here -- Great Article BTW!!!), and I don't. I am able to walk and work all the way around my bench.
With my bench positioned not against a wall, the tail vice is quite useful for cross-cutting boards longer than bench width. The face vice can also be used for securing boards for cross-cutting (and other cutting operations) at the other end of the bench, approaching the board from either the front or the rear of the bench, depending on the cut. For other things -- like edge planing -- the front vice and a board jack work quite well.
Neither vice on my bench has a quick-release mechanism, and I have never used one, and so can't comment on the quick-release type. I do like the solid feel of the traditional screw mechanism vices, though.
I recognize that not having the bench against the wall has some disadvantages in being able to reach tools stored on the wall, but I find that to be a very minor inconvenience. All of my tools are within a couple of steps of either end of my bench, and I normally pull out all of the tools that I anticipate using before I start work, anyway. Perhaps not the most efficient way to do things, but it works for me...
At any rate, I like the traditional L-shaped tail vice and the more or less standard front vice on the left front of the bench. Just my nickel's worth....hope it's of some use to you.
James
Hi,
I have only 1 vise, a 10" end vise I got from Rockler. The quick release can be finicky but it's good for my needs. I build end tables, coffee tables and corner tables by order.
Sorry, I tend to ramble. One of the curses of old age. Anyhow, I'll give the vise the highest praise I can, it does what it's supposed to. When I need another vise, I clamp 2 handscrew clamps to the workbench. Works for holding panels upright.
So consider what you need a vise to do and work from there. And, like you heard, vise selection comes down to personal preference.
Best of woodworking to you,
Mikaol
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