Hello,
After 12 long years I finally have a garage of my own that I can start to assemble my dream shop in. I say dream shop because I have been dreaming of this for a long time.
A bit about me.. I have done a good amount of woodworking, starting from the ground up sharpening tools, and doing handwork, as well as power tool work. I have handmade a serpentine front desk with ball and claw feet, as well as a Queen Anne style highboy, lowboys, clocks, etc. The last time I was in a shop however was a good ten years ago.
I want to put together a shop, and the first tool I will be purchasing is a cabinet saw. A jointer, planer, bandsaw, the rest aren’t far behind…
What are your favorites?
thanks
Replies
I like the older PM66's. Im going to purchace an early 90's PM66 in a month or so for myself.
Dale
http://www.sacllc.com/index_eng.asp
http://www.felder.co.at/index.php
http://www.invicta-usa.com/index.asp
http://www.lagunatools.com/default.htm
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
My favorite is the General 650...my budget forces me to look more to the General International 50-260.
what's the difference between general and general int'l. i am planing on buying the mortiser, but did not realize there is gen and gen int'l?
General is manufactured in Canada and General International is manufactured in Taiwan. Both lines are under the full control of General and must pass both the CE and UL standards, (CE is much more stringent).
You don't mention your budget. If it's unlimited you could go get a high end euro slidders for $5k. Me, I'm just a hobbyist and bought a Grizzly 1023slx. I love it. Very ecconomical, and does a great job with a bessy style fence. You could also try a used one like an older PM66 or Delta, but that's a crap shoot (by that I mean hidden reapirs possible), but if you feel lucky go for it. I used a shop smith for years and after moving up to the cabinet saw, it's like night and day. Good luck on the choice.
Sawstop.
http://www.sawstop.com
I found a great used Rockwell Unisaw in the newspaper for much less than a new one costs. Parts are readily available for any Unisaw. Although most used tools have "character", if you exercise judgement you can find a heck of a deal.
It only took 1 gallon of penetrating oil, removal of 30 years of sawdust and grease, 2 weeks, and 1 can of dry-moly lube to roll the clock back 30+ years on my saw.
Good luck.
Kevin
Having seen a sliding table saw in action for the first time this summer, I'd say it's definitely something to consider. Problem might be space, depending on how big your garage is. This one was Tom's (tms) MiniMax combination machine, which put a whole bunch of machines in one compact footprint.
A note on Powermatic: They just released a new saw that has a riving knife and an improved blade guard, built-in mobile base. Don't have that issue of Woodshop News here, but IIRC it comes with either a 3HP or 5HP motor.
Have fun, and congratulations!!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
If you want an American style saw Saw Stop, by all accounts it is a saw on par with Powermatic, General and Delta. It also has some great improvements riving knife, safety features and more. If you want a Euro machine ..... I don't know.
Mike
Thanks for all the advice. I should have mentioned my budget, which is around $2000 for the tablesaw. Also, what are peoples feelings about buying locally vs. online? Am I better off going with a local merchant? thanks.
That storefront vs. on-line thing can get very heated around here. There's no locale information in your profile, whereabouts are you? If money were not such an issue with me, I'd buy from a local merchant every time. With the big tools, it's often the best way to go. However, for me personally, $100 or $200 (or more) makes a huge difference, so I'm willing to take the chance on shipping problems or whatever. One nice thing about buying locally is that they will often set the machine up for you, eliminating all the hassle with the Cosmoline and other aggravations.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I just went through this same process, with about the same budget. I ended up getting a new 5 HP Unisaw, LT with 50" Biesmeyer, at toolsplus. There's a $100 rebate, and free shipping, so the net price for me was $1799. That's a lot of saw for under $2K. Oh, and it includes a 5 year warranty and a mobile base.
Edited 10/20/2005 3:13 pm ET by vulcan666
Thanks for your response. I have been trying to decide between that and the powermatic. Did you look at the powermatic at all? Where did you do your research? thanks.
I sought opinions from folks who've used them, here and on other forums. I read stuff from manufacturers and dealers, and talked with a few dealers.
I really wasn't even looking for a 5HP (heck, I almost bought a 1 3/4 HP 22124), but my ambition is to make furniture and maybe a few cabinets. It just seemed to me that if I could get the 5HP at a small premium, it could ease things down the road. I sure do know that plenty of folks have made really fine pieces with very limited equipment, even benchtops, so the horsepower wasn't necessary. But several folks' stories made the HP sound desirable and convenient. With 5 HP I won't have to, say, consider thin-kerf blades just because I'm underpowered.
I ended up with the Unisaw because it, along with a few others, seemed like it would definitely do the job. When I found the 5HP at $1800 new with 5 year warranty and mobile base and free delivery, it just seemed irresistible. If I'd found a comparable deal on a Powermatic, I've no doubt my workshop would be sporting a mammoth piece of yellow steel right now. Same is true of the General 650 as well.
I considered the used market, but my problem is I've got no experience maintaining these things. Yes I have some basic mechanical aptitude but for myself, I decided I'd rather buy new. I certainly acknowledge, as others suggest, that a superior bargain can be had if you're up to dealing with the issues you may encounter with a used saw. I do have to admit, as many here will tell you, buying new does not guarantee easy satisfaction either! Of course as I maintain this Unisaw and other equipment over the next few years, I may well acquire enough comfort with these sorts of machines to consider a used purchase for the next machine (perhaps a lathe a few years down the road).
Anyway, good luck and have fun!
I assure you that you will not be needing thin kerf blades for a 3 horse saw. I can't think of a need for 5 horses in a small cabinet shop. If you are using a power feeder for deminsioning lots of lumber then it would be prudent.
Mike
You're probably right, but for $50 (36-L31X-BC50 was $1,749 after rebate; 36-L51X-BC50 was $1,799) I'll never know.
I had some folks tell me they had run into bogging with very hard wood (I can't remember 12/4 or 8/4) on a 3 HP. I couldn't tell if I might run into the same thing, so the 5 HP versus 3 HP was on my list as a "nice if cheap." Also, it seemed to me that more power might come in handy cutting dados and coves.
What really swayed me is thinking, what would it cost me to deal with it if I ended up wanting the 5 HP in the future, versus what it costs me today to put the issue to rest, permanently.
Finally, I'd asked for advice because I'm inexperienced. I'm hesitant to ignore a caution if it's credible and I can solve it below my pain threshold.
50 bucks for 5hp over 3hp is a no brainer. How did it deliver (condition). And assy./setup?
Glad to hear it -- no brainer is my specialty. heh. I got the 220v electricity into my shop just last night, inspection is today, so hopefully I'll be getting set up and plugged in this week.
Hi,
I've just joined the forum and I am scanning through topics that have an interest to me. I'm a retired hobby woodworker just getting my shop re-established in a new house (to us). My dad's old 8" Craftsman motor finally gave up the ghost and I used the opportunity to press my CFO if I could get a more powerful saw with a better fence system. My first choice (if $'s are not an issue) would be a Felder with the longest sliding table your space will allow. I had the experience in 2002 to put together a mission project to setup a wood shop in Goma (as in Congo) and went to Austria where I got the full show at the Felder plant. Their equipment is first class. It's more pricey now as the dollar is down. We setup the whole shop with Felder equipment and they treated us very well and the equipment has been great. One recommendation would be to get at least a 5 hp motor on the saw. The Felder USA web site has already be referenced in an earlier comment responding to your request.
Back to my newly setup garage shop. My CFO said $5K is too much (and I agreed), so I went with what I concluded to be the best US made saw for the money and that is a Powermatic 66. I only got the 3 hp motor, but for what I do that is adequate. I've only had it for a couple months but after taking off the blade guard and installing a GripTite Fence and Feathering system, I feel very safe with it. I also have discarded the miter attachment and replaced it with my own "sliding table" environment (suitable for what I do) with the Jointech Smart Miter. That device enables repeatable cuts at any length (up to 48") and angle cuts to an accuracy of 1/2 degree. Important for the mantle I am currently making for our newly installed fireplace.
Sorry to be so wordy on my inaugural entry to the forum. Wish you the best as you select that "ideal" saw.
ORGramps
"GripTite Fence and Feathering system" Yes! You're on my list of people who can vouch for this system!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Gramp,
Welcome, you can check out some of us rowdies, who still have to work over in Breaktime.
I just wanted to mention that in July I fired my CFO, and the shop is looking great. I figure once the weather starts getting colder, I might look into hiring a new one but whats the rush.
-zen
I think I have to find one that works the gray areas better... the last one was all business.
CFO That was my wife! She NEVER let me spend anything! Not really...
who still have to work over in Breaktime.WORK... Now ya guys know how to piss me off!
LOL
The work has become the fun part, its the Chemisery class that I had a bright idea to take that is making me tear my hair out.
Everytime I read a chapter I feel like Ive been violated.
-zen
Cykeler,
I've been very pleased with my Jet 10", 3HP, Left Tilt saw with extension and router lift. There are plenty of proponents of just about all brands on the Forum. It really depends on the combination of your budget and your needs. If you haven't seen it already, here a link to the current Jet/Powermatic promos: http://www.powermatic.com/promos/promos.htm
Good luck!
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting
Mensa Member
Click Here if you're interested in a good, inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
I don't think you'd regret the PM 66, but I put the Delta Unisaw on my list too. What ever you choose, get a Biesmeyer style fence. I've got a monster of a Jet, and it is a good saw, just a little rougher then the Delta and PM.
Steve,
I'm looking to upgrade myself. What makes you consider the Jet to be "rougher."
Adam
Hi Adam,
I'm comparing the two saws I've owned, a Delta contractor saw with a 36" Biesmeyer fence, and a Jet cabinet saw with a 52" Exacta fence (Biesmeyer clone). The Delta has better "fit and finish". The paint on the Jet is OK, but it looks like something I could do with a rattle can. I hate the stupid magnified cursor, although I have a method to eliminate the 1/8" paralax errors, and the Xtacta fence on the Jet looks like it was assembled using an old Lincoln stick welder. The Delta has nice paint, and the Biesmeyer fence is as close to perfect as anyone's come with fences. That being said, I love my big cabinet saw, and I would not trade back for the contractor saw. The important stuff, like trunions, motors, switches, cast iron, fence function (taking into account the fix for the paralax) etc., are great on both saws. In my opinion, the Jet is one heck of a lot of bang for the buck, but if you spend a little more, you'll get better cosmetics. I'm happy with the Jet, but I like bargins.
If I could have afforded any saw out there, I would have got a Powermatic 66 because I think they look cool. They don't cut any better then my Jet though, so I consider the $1500 I saved to be a good move.
Steve
Thanks for the info, Steve. One more thing:
"...although I have a method to eliminate the 1/8" paralax errors"
I'm not familiar with paralax. Could you explain that for me?
Adam
Paralax is a result of the viewer reading a needle gauge wrong because your eyes are not directly over the needle or cursor in this case. The Jet has a magnified cursor to set the fence, and it is positioned too far off the measureing tape. Both of these add to the possible paralax error. All you need to do is keep your eyes directly over the cursor and paralax is not a problem. Ideally, the cursor would be nearly touching the measureing tape, and it would not be magnified. The Biesmeyer is well designed in this aspect.
Steve
Hi Adam - The General International 50-260 is a nice alternative to the Jet for a couple hundred less ($1299 through a dealer, w/50" rip, 2yr warranty). The ones I've seen in the store had fairly impressive fit and finish and are well built for the price point...not quite as rugged as the 650, but well built for the task. They also come with the General Biese fence.
I recently purchased the General 650. It is an impressive piece of equipment. The tables, trunions, and adjustment components are all very heavy duty and machined with precision. I purchased it through a local distributor. I had considered the Unisaw and PM, but felt most comfortable with buying the General, even though the other two are also fine machines. Now that it is set up and in use, I am glad I made the decision. If you are interested in the 650, you may find it to be close in price to the PM66 and a few hundred dollars more than the Unisaw.
By the way, General has a more limited distribution network that other manufacturers. General does run special promotions that have recently included the 650 with their excellent fence system.
Hope this helps some.
I'll second the 650... go for the 350 if you want to use the Excalibur slider. It works better with the right tilt saw.
Edited 10/20/2005 1:19 am ET by WhatKnot
I have owned a Delta Unisaw for over twenty years. I like it. I have a little experience with an older PM 66. I like that saw also. Parts are easy to come by for the Delta but I have not needed anything. The only thing I have replaced are belts. I can not say the Delta is the best because my experience is limited; however, I have no desire to change.
I can say with confidence the castings on my Delta are stable. It has not moved since I bought it new in the early eighties. It is a good, solid, smooth running machine, with all the power I need. Some of the Asian castings make me a little nervous. Castings in many of the Asian machine tools tend to move around over time. I had an Asian jointer many years ago the the fence warped significantly.
Like you, have not done much woodworking for the past ten years and it is fun making saw dust again.
Good Luck
Grits
Look at the used market, my whole shop is rebuilt Delta equipment from the 50's. My Unisaw was $900.00 with a new Delta motor, bearings and paint. 13" planner with the same treatment, $1000.00, and the older stuff has lots of character. Plus it is way more fun shopping for used stuff than just running to the local Woodcraft or other tool shop.
I'm a little late getting in, but I would agree with Napie about checking the used market. There is currently a PM 66 single phase on WoodWeb for $925 without a fence. Add a nice fence, and you have a great saw for $1,250.
http://www.woodweb.com/exchanges/machinery/posts/404525.html
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