Replies

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Jan 13, 2006 04:19am | #1

   Mineral spirits should do an adequate job of highlighting glue. 

   Personally, I would never stain cherry.  It will darken substantially in a relatively short period of time and reach a richness of color that stain can't match.  Put in some bright sun for a couple of days (turning it regularly to tan all sides equally) and you may find you don't need the stain. 

   Another personal preference would be to use shellac for the finish, though if you do persist in the stain, you would want to shift to waterbased dye rather than alcohol based.  Waterborne finishes often add a coolness, compounded with the haze of added polyurethane, that I don't find attractive. 

1. 
   Rather | Jan 13, 2006 06:07am | #2

   Thanks Steve...If I follow your suggestion re: shellac, should I use a water based sanding sealer under the shellac or just go from bare wood to shellac and call it quits?

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Jan 13, 2006 07:10am | #3

   Shellac does quite well as a sealer directly over wood, or over a mixed-with-water analine dye.  Sanding sealer is almost never a desirable product as it usually weakens the ultimate finish. Its main purpose is to be easy to sand and build the film on the surface.  It does nothing to add to adhesion of the finish. 

   (Exception: vinyl sealer under certain conversion varnishes, etc.)

2. 
   philip | Jan 13, 2006 10:05am | #4

   Spray that Zinsser Bullseye dewaxed shellac sealer. In addition to be a magic insurance it also highlights stray glue (yellow aliphatic etc) and you can then sort it out before proceeding further.

   Philip Marcou
3. 
   KJ | Jan 18, 2006 10:25pm | #5

   The FWW article in this month's issue on dye vs. pigment stains this month gives a great recipe for cherry finish. I topped mine with Rockhard Tabletop (pretty dark varnish) and the cherry table just shimmers! Wiping a finish might take longer but it works well with complex shapes. The combination of cherry dye and a cherry glaze stain really pops the grain.

4. 
   Troy | Jan 21, 2006 10:31pm | #6

   Not sure what you want as an end result but with cherry I have been really pleased with some of the wipeon oil finishes, even watco looks nice on cherry. All of the cherry things I have made or seen have all darkened after few months. So If you want a film finish (varnish or laquer) maybe you don't need to stain the piece. I don't know if you ever watch New Yankee workshop but Norm used to just danish oil the cherry projects and now that minwax is a sponser he seams to stain, glaze and poly the blazes out of his cherry projects and after he is done with them you cant tell what they are made out of.

   Troy

5. 
   user-49352 | Jan 24, 2006 04:47am | #7

   Rather,

   I'd rather not see you stain cherry either. I made a piece a few years back with quilted and highly figured veneers and solids. I did it the old fashioned way with pure tung oil..hand rubbed of course. It still has  lustrous deeply figured look and has darkened naturally. the residual glue will show up after the first coat of oil and allow you to make the corrections with ease. remember, any solvent based finish will always be susceptible to solvents. the tung oil polymerizes as hard as a rock. finish with pure carnuba for extra protection and lustre...DaveC

6. 
   Pondfish | Jan 25, 2006 06:13pm | #8

   It's more work, but I like the look of oil-treated cherry.  I'd do one shot of the Zinsser sanding sealer (2# cut if dewaxed shellac) to reduce blotching and find sanding/glue problems.  Then I would do 5-8 hand rubbed daily applications of an oil/varnish mix, starting with one that is 50% MS, and reduced the amount of MS every day until I'm pretty much applying a wiping varnish.

   After curing for a week, a topcoat of lacquer of shellac will gloss it up some, and seal in any oil smell (if you used BLO instead of tung oil, I would definitely seal the work with a topcoat).

   In my opinion, I find the cherry grain and wood comes alive after several coats (rubbed dry) of oil, in a way that a topcoat alone can't duplicate.  Try it in a test piece (at least 12" square) to see what I mean.

   Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
1. 
   SteveSchoene | Jan 29, 2006 04:04pm | #10

   Zinsser SealCoat at 2 lb cut is heavier than I would use.  I'd prefer a one pound, or even less.  To get to 1 lb. cut from the SealCoat, mix 3 parts alcohol with 2 parts of the SealCoat.  It is unfortunate that Zinsser has chosen to call this a sanding sealer.  It is a dewaxed shellac with some additives to add shelf life, and perhaps to aid flowing out, but its not particularly different from dewaxed shellac mixed from flakes, including how well it sands.  Its their marketing decision--not the one I would have made if I owned the company, but I don't.

1. 
   Pondfish | Jan 29, 2006 08:42pm | #11

   I know what you mean about it not sanding out that well--like all shellacs, you tend to get clogged paper. 

   I've found that a light touch and frequent clearing of the sandpaper makes the job go pretty well.  I don't use the sealcoat as a grain filler, so I'm not worried about trying o fill all the pores.  Just a light treatment helps to reduce the blotchiness you can get with oil/varnish and some cherry stock.

   As far as diluting it to a 1# cut, that's not a bad idea, though in my hands I haven't found a real need for it.  Most of my use of sealcoat is for sealing up MDF used for jigs and TS sleds, and it does well at that job.  Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Jan 30, 2006 01:14am | #12

   If it doesn't sand to powder after overnight drying in a warm room, you have marginal shellac, whether from age or excess moisture.  It shouldn't clog the paper.  I'd mix some fresh and use newly purchased denatured alcohol.  Diluting to 1# is only for use as a wash coat under stain to reduce "blotching", not needed for general applications. 

1. 
   Pondfish | Jan 30, 2006 02:59am | #13

   I find clogging is due in part to heat generated, especially when using a ROS.  It's not a fresh shellac thing, I make and use fresh shellac all the time.  I suspect it's heat, because when I hand sand I rarely have the problem.Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005

2. 
   SteveSchoene | Jan 30, 2006 03:24am | #14

   Heat makes sense. 

2. 
   martindelittle | Feb 06, 2006 03:34am | #16

   Steve,

   I am writing from the UK, trying to follow the cherry finish thread and struggling a bit with the language (two nations separated by a common language etc).

   What some of you guys call Zinsser sanding sealer, you Steve have redefined as a  de waxed shellac? In the Uk a dewaxed shellac is the basis of French Polish when diluted in methylated spirits. Is this more or less what you folk are talking  about?

   (Wonder what you guys  call French polish, button Polish, Garnet shellac, Lemon shellac.....No never mind...)

   Can you explain the  1lb and 2lb "cut" references to mixing up the shellac. It sounds as if this might be the ratio of shellac to meths?

   Elsewhere in the thread Pondfish talks of  an oil varnish mix. What sort of varnish might he be talking about please? Yacht varnish, polyurethane varnish or something you guys have and we do not.

   Regards

    

   Martin

   Edited 2/5/2006 7:35 pm by martindelittle

1. 
   Pondfish | Feb 06, 2006 02:16pm | #17

   For the oil/varnish mix, I use alkyd resin varnish.  I look for one without UV blockers, so the cherry will darken faster.

   a 2# cut of shellac is 2 pounds of dry shellac flake added to 1 gallon of solvent.  Note that it is 1 gallon of solvent used, versus adding solvent to flake to make a 1 gallon mix.Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005

1. 
   martindelittle | Feb 06, 2006 10:36pm | #19

   Thankyou Pondfish very useful indeed....

    

   Regards

    

   Martin

2. 
   SteveSchoene | Feb 06, 2006 05:18pm | #18

   The SealCoat by Zinsser is a pre-mixed shellac that contains no wax.  It is the commercial version of shellac mixed from flakes.  Methylated spirits is, I think, what we would call denatured alcohol.  By denatured we mean with something added to make it poisonous.  That something is mostly methyl (or wood) alcohol although there are other additives as well.

   French polish over here is a method--applying shellac and filling pores with pumice and a pad, using an oil lubricant.  The Zinsser company, which as a virtual monopoly over hear on pre-mixed shellac, has recently added a product called French Polish, that is shellac with a lubricant already added.  The lubricant evaporates slowly instead of having to be spirited off at the end of the process. 

   The shellac used for French polish may be of any from a wide range--from superblond to garnet including lemon shellac.  Button shellac, and seed lac are also available.   Shellac can be applied without the French polish method. 

   You have it right that the pound cut language is a measurement of how thick the shellac has been mixed.  For example, 2 lb. cut means 2 lb. of shellac added to one gallon of alcohol.   

   And oil/varnish mix is a product in which a varnish (usually an interior alkyd varnish) is mixed with an oil, usually linseed oil, and then thinned for application as an "in-the-wood" oil finish.  It is more protective than oil alone.  It is also one of the compounds called Danish oil.  Probably the most common US brand is Watco, but you can mix it yourself.  Marine varnish or spar varnish is probably not a good choice since it so flexible.  Polyurethane varnish can be used, but the anti-abrasive qualities of the polyurethane resin wouldn't add much when mixed down with the oil.  I presume you still have varnish with traditional resins, alkyd or phenolic that don't have polyurethane.  Probably labeled something like interior clear varnish.  Some commercial versions of oil/varnish mix do use polyurethane varnish, largely because it polyurethane snags the unwary as being especially durable. 

   Edited 2/6/2006 9:39 am ET by SteveSchoene

1. 
   martindelittle | Feb 06, 2006 10:37pm | #20

   Steve,

   Many thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed reply, very useful.

   regards

   Martin

7. 
   stantheman | Jan 26, 2006 03:18am | #9

   try this website  http://www.furniturefinishwizard.com/cherry.htm

8. 
   douglas2cats | Feb 04, 2006 04:15am | #15

   If you haven't tried BLO (boiled linseed oil) on cherry, give it a try on some scrap before you resort to staining. It does a great job on deepening the color to look like aged cherry, pops the cherry figure nicely, is dirt cheap, and it's easy to use. You can apply whatever top coat finish you like over it.

   If you build it he will come.