Can some of you help me with the current wisdom on finishing toys? One of DW’s artist friends painted designs on a couple dolls’ cradles and would like to apply a clear finish, preferably one that won’t yellow (much).
The wood is northern white pine.
She used acrylic paint plus a permanent fabric marker to make the designs.
I suppose toxicity could be an issue. And I’m scratching my head……
Are there any new products out there to fill that bill?
What would you use?
Thanks!
oldfred
Replies
A blonde shellac would add very little color and would not darken appreciably over time. No toxicity issue with any clear finishes, all US clear finishes are safe when cured. An alternative would be a waterborne acyrlic finish. These won't darken either, though may raise grain a bit more than the shellac. I'd make a test on scrap putting any possible finish over the fabric marker to see what, if anything, would happen.
Thanks, Steve
I'll forward the information. I didn't realize that all US clear finishes are now considered non toxic. Good to know. I had told her to do a test on a piece of scrap.
oldfred
pldfred,
Steve is correct, shellac is safe,, it's on pills that you take and candy you eat. It has been there all of your life..
Shellac is hard and safe (and really easy for clutzes like me to apply) Ask and I'll give you step by step directions that are fool proof.
Frenchy,
OK, I'm askin'...... I'm a clutz with shellac and would like to know how to apply it properly.
I noticed your recent post, either here on on Breaktime, about using shellac on your floors.
Thanks,
oldfred
oldfred,
Yes that's exactly the approach I use with shellac.. I over thin it, let it run and cover everthing as quickly as possible.. that way you wind up run free.
If you try to be neat about it you won't be able to keep a wet edge since shellac dries so quickly.. that dry edge is what makes shellac look lumpy or less than perfect.. This is sort of like dipping it with a paint brush.
If you'd like I'll repeat the instruction here but I'm a really slow typest, (I'm dyslexic and need to look all over for where the next letter is hiding now. ;-)
Frenchy,
I just spent a while doing an advanced search and couldn't find your instructions. But save your fingers for the political threads <G> - I'll keep looking.
I did find several of your posts about shellac, no instructions for application.
oldfred
Oldfred,
OK fair enough Since I can't find them myself I'll do this again..
For a crib, you'll need about a quart of zinssers bullseye shellac (yellow can, says clear at the bottom) and two quarts of denatured alcohol. (check the date on the bottom of the can,, and don't go for the well aged can.. You'll also need a 3M sanding sponge, fine (yellow one) 220 grit although you can use a 180 in a pinch*. You'll also want a large fine brush larger than you think you'll need because you've got to carry a lot of fluid with it.. (I'd guess 4 inches)
* Please do not use your fingers and a piece of paper.. if you must you can uses a sanding block but for a crib with all of it's curves and corners I think you'll find that awkward..
I'll explain if you want..
stir the quart for a minute or so to get the shellac which settles well mixed..so Then pour it into something where you can also pour two quarts of denatured alcohol (please note alcohol not thinner or anything else)..
OK assuming it's dust and lint free, you'll want to flood on this really thin mix really quickly.
I mean the Indy 500 of painting where you'r whole goal is to cover everything as fast as humanly possible.. Neat doesn't count.
Let me repeat, Fast, Flood it on , and never, ever go back over anything.. If you miss something don't worry, if it runs so what! You should be flooding it on so fast that you beat the runs down. This isn't really painting so much as it's flooding..
Don't worry, shellac is faster than you are and really wants you to simply get out of it's way. If you miss something the next coat will melt into the first coat and make an invisable repair.
In about 15 minutes the shellac will be dry! ( I know scary isn't it?) and you can start sanding.. Now sanding isn't what you think it should be.. feel the finish, those nubs you feel are normal it's the result of shellac raising the grain and to sand them off requires a light touch real lick and a promise kinda sanding.
Do not attempt to "fix" anything! The next coat will melt the first coat and all your worlk will be wasted.. just get the nubs off. On flat surfaces for example it should take you between one to 1 & 1/2 seconds per square foot. Take care on edges and corners that you don't remove all the shellac. This shellac is really thin at this stage.. great care must be used.
Ok wipe off the white residue and double check that all the nubs are removed..
Flood on the second coat. The rules still apply fast and don't go back over anything! This coat will take about 1/2 hour to dry, when dry check to make sure all the nubs are really gone if not you can sand only that area and then wipe up the white residue.
The third coat will dry in about an hour and should be enough.. shellac doesn't like to be thick..
I understand for neat tidy people this is really scary, but shellac dries so fast that it causes problems with those who try to be careful.. the shellac is so thin that when it dries it doesn't leave those tell tail run marks..
Thanks for your effort, Frenchy. I'll do some expirimenting and see how it works.
fred,
Before flooding a painted, markered surface with alcohol-laden shellac, you definitely will want to do some experimenting to make sure it doesn't wash anything away....
Ray
Joinerswork,
I heartily agree. On this cradle finishing project, I'm just the "consultant" who was asked for advice. And you guys are the "font of knowledge" I'm relying on so I won't look too foolish. I do, however plan to play around myself and see how the shellac works as a finish. I have used it for years as a sealer, but not as a final coat.
Thanks to all of you for the help. I hope some day I'll have a few bits of value to add to the mix.
oldfred
BTW, you live in a beautiful area. My niece recently moved to Pulaski area and I hope to visit. My wife and I drove the Skyline drive a few years ago so I could stand on that part of the Appalachian Trail. I'm a maintainer for a section up here.
hi fred,
Yes, we like it here. Good for you for supporting the ap trail. Got a friend who does trail maintenance, in the Shenandoah Nat'l Park, and I've enjoyed backpacking on several sections of the AT, as a scout leader,and since then too.
Spent a glorious couple weeks a few years back paddling the Allagash, up your way. Now that is some pretty scenery. We took out at Fort Kent, walked to Canada that evening, for supper.
Ray
And kudos to you for being a scout leader. Other than a few "interruptions" I've lived here for over sixty years and have yet to see the Alagash. Still hope to get there. I have walked across the bridge at Fort Kent.
Worked on quite a bit of the trail up here - we relocated over half of the Trail in Maine and I got to work on many of the relos.. Been working my section for about thirty years. We have some beautiful areas.
C'mon back!
fred,
The bridge at Fort Kent...the evening we walked to supper in Canada, one of the boys stopped in the center of the bridge's pedestrian lane, where there is a bronze plaque saying "Welcome to Canada" or some such. Jumping repeatedly back and forth past the sign, he exclaimed, " Hey guys, I've been to Canada 7 times!"
Ray
" Hey guys, I've been to Canada 7 times!"LOL.. Good one!Sound like somethin' I'd do...
Edited 12/9/2007 2:15 pm by WillGeorge
Ray,
I was in my early teens when I walked that bridge. Probably around 1959. Visiting my buddy who had moved North when his dad became the US Customs vet to inspect animals coming into the States. While his dad was inside with the other Customs agents, my buddy and I walked across to Canada, bought firecrackers and smuggled them back and into his dad's car.
Think the statute of limitations has run out for that crime? ( Actually, I have a feeling they watched us and let us get away with it. Boys with firecrackers wasn't one of the pressing issues back then.)
oldfred
Another option is to pad on the shellac.
It may take a bit more work to build the film finish but I don't have to worry about brush marks. One quality that I like about shellac is that it dries rather quickly, at least the 2 lb. cut that I use does.
As Steve pointed out, if you have several panels/pieces, you can usually start at the beginning right away. One thing I learned, perhaps the hard way is DO NOT TIDY UP AS YOU GO! I made an abominal mess the first time I tried shellac, going back to fix it. Just keep on trucking, get it on the next pass.
Regards, Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Thanks, Bob,
I'll try that too.
Just to offer the standard approach to using shellac--Very few finishers find using 0.8 lb. cut shellac very efficient to use. That's what you get when you combine 1 part of 3 lb. cut shellac with 2 parts of alcohol. Most of us are more comfortable padding on something like 1 1/2 pound cut, which still applies easily, but builds a little faster. It still dries quite quickly, with the first coat ready to recoat in 15 minutes. On furniture of any size, applying the first couple of coats is more or less a continuous process since by the time you finish the last part, the first section is ready for the next coat.
Three coats of the very light cut (overly thinned) will leave very little shellac on the wood, giving more of a oil finish look rather than a traditional film finish. Shellac can perform quite well in considerably thicker films than three coats of really light cuts. It certainly can be built to films that can be rubbed out to any sheen desired from high gloss to dull satin.
Moving quickly, without going back to catch missed spots or to worry about smoothing out overlaps is also part of the conventional procedures of long standing. In a few coats, it will all average out. Shellac doesn't need to be sanded between coats except to remove defects. I prefer to sand off any raised grain until after a few coats. (By the way, heavier cuts of shellac do a lot less grain raising than super light cuts.)
A few other points. The thing that settles in the can of Zinsser Clear is the natural wax, not shellac resin itself. I don't recommend the Zinsser Clear since the color has been removed with chlorine bleach, in a process that leaves it less water resistant and durable than shellac that hasn't been treated. In addition, Clear does contain wax, which means that if you do at some point chose to apply another material over it, you can't use polyurethane varnish or waterborne finishes. Traditional resin varnishes will adhere to shellac with its wax intact.
Zinsser does sell a dewaxed shellac named Seal Coat. It is packaged in a lighter cut (2 lb. cut) so less thinning is needed. It is a blonde color, though not quite as light as the super blonde that is available in flakes. The blonde shellacs are not chemically bleached, but have the color (a natural dye in shellac) removed by a filtering process. Dewaxed shellac is more water resistant and is clearer, with the draw back of being a little more difficult to sand.
Steve,
Valuable information. Thanks for posting!
Here's a third vote for blond shellac. It's the only finish that's approved by the FDA for human consumption (when dry). Water-based finishes WILL raise the grain, not might. Since you have painted designs on these pieces, you won't be able to sand the first coat back down without risk. Oil-based varnishes have a yellow tinge, and you won't like that. A good old-fashioned lacquer will give you a hard, clear finish, but it will require spray equipment.
Thanks, George
Looks like shellac is the best all -around answer.
oldfred
Since shellac is the consensus and I would certainly agree, and the pieces are small, spraying would certainly be a candidate for an easy quick finish.
Brushing shellac is not an easy method if you've never done it, no matter what the cut. There is a learning curve.
Edited 12/9/2007 6:51 am ET by Gretchen
Hi Gretchen,
Yep, I think the learning curve is the main reason I have little experience with shellac. Discouraged with my early attempts and moved on to something easier. (I like "easy" !)
Shellac is about as easy and it gets!
WillGeorge,
Shellac is about as easy and it gets! Yep, and I'm afraid that explains where I rank as a finisher <G>
I think when I tried it years ago I probably brushed it too much and didn't bother to figure it out. Back then I was not known for my patience.
I'll try again and hope to prove you right. :)
Thanks
Gretchen
You must have a differant set up than I do.. I have a great big compressor and a small back up one plus hundreds of feet of air hose about a dozen differant paint guns including HVLP and pressure pots etc. and decades of experiance spraying.
By the time I seal off an area to spray, (I'm sick and tired of cleaning overspray off my tools and other stuff) drag out the guns hoses etc..then cleaning up the guns afterwards and then put things back I find it's massively more time consuming to spray than to brush.
I've done a lot of volume stuff for example MY tower had raised maple panels made for it and there were 360 of them plus all the rails and styles and still it was faster to brush than to spray..
I do spray my timbers simply because I've found that to be the only efficent way to paint overhead, painting with a brush yields a lot of shellac down your arm , into your armpit, etc,, YUCK! While spraying puts most of the shellac up without the drip issue that brushing entails..
For a doll bed craft project I am talking about a spray can.Gretchen
Gretchen,
Sometimes I overlook elegently simple solutions.
I have used Tried and True wood finishes from time to time. Woodcraft carries them. Basically no VOC's, so I feel safe applying indoors. They are clear, but I usually use on cherry and maple, and those do darken up upon saturation with the oil. Not sure how it would do with the pine.
I don't do any turning, but hopefully someone who makes bowls can give you some solid advice.
Hope you get great results. Post a picture if you are happy with the results.
Thanks,
I was called for advice and said I'd ask the experts - you people - for help. Haven't seen the cradles myself. However, finishing has always been one of my weak suits and I'm therefore appreciating all this information.
oldfred
Edited 12/9/2007 4:20 pm ET by oldfred
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