Time to get a decent countersink set and plug cutters. Am considering the Lee Valley tapered plug cutters and their single-flute countersinks. Anyone have either or both of these, and can give feedback?
Also, LV only stocks two sizes for the countersink, whereas Woodcraft stocks 4, but there’s no info on the quality of the steel (I tend to trust LV more than Woodcraft). What sizes do you guys/gals use the most?? LV sells 3/8″ and 1/2″
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Replies
The LV tapered plug cutters are excellent. The best I've found at any rate.
I'm assuming you already have a good set of bits of the Fuller type.
I don't have the LV countersinks, just because I've had the same old countersinks for what seems like forever, and have no reason to buy newer ones. In any case, I have both 3/8 and 1/2. The one I reach for is the 3/8, except for the occassional construction project with really big screws. If you're building smallish furniture you can live perfectly well with just the 3/8.
DR
Thanks for the thumbs-up on the LV plug cutters. I'm not sure what you mean, specifically, by "Fuller Type" though ("I'm assuming you already have a good set of bits of the Fuller type.") I know of Fuller as a catalog company, not a type of bit...... help......forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I meant this type of countersink set - http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32309&cat=1,180,42240
In my mind, at least, Fuller pioneered these bits and still makes excellent ones, although the above LV sets are just as good. I persist in calling them "Fuller" bits.
DR
So, maybe I should be looking at the tapered bit/countersink ("Fuller style") arrangement rather than single-flute. I made the mistake a few years ago of buying a cheap set (Steel-X) of the tapered style, and they were awful. I'm seeing that Fuller sells sets which have, for example, 5 bits plus one or two plug cutteres. If I can drum up the $$, that might be the best way to go.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
maybe I should be looking at the tapered bit/countersink ("Fuller style") arrangement rather than single-flute.
I've used these before (LV brand) and the results are great. It sure speeds the whole process up. Being able to drill and countersink to a constant depth all in one go is quick and painless.
The LV plug cutters are great as well.
I have the Fuller matched set (drill/countersink/counterbore/stop collar/plug cutter/case). Amazon typically has the best price. I found the Fuller set to be so far above the VA stuff I was using it wasn't even funny. The plugs just disappear into the holes. Fuller is pretty much the name in the c-sink/plug business and now I know why. The <!----><!----><!---->LV<!----><!----> stuff looks nice, and I almost went that route, but they look almost identical to the Fuller stuff. I am sure you will be happy with either, I just figured the folks who rave about Fuller couldn't all be wrong, and they aren't.<!----><!----><!---->
Like almost everything else discussed here, it often comes down to what you are making and what you feel comfortable with. I can only give you a picture of how my shop uses these:
We have 5 or 6 Fuller tapered bit/countersinks ready for the 3 or 4 commonly used screw sizes. I never buy sets because I find the stop collars to be completely uneccessary. Also, the bits break (by dropping the drill on the floor, usually) much more often than a countersink needs to be replaced. I often resharpen the countersinks myself on a grinder with no difficulty. So I usually buy 2 or 3 bits for every countersink.
For out of the ordinary screw sizes we just drill and countersink in separate operations. We use whatever drill is needed and a plain old 1/2" countersink which lives forever.
I think that for many shops the common screw sizes will probably narrow down to just a few. I'd rather have 2 bit/countersinks set up for a size that is always in demand than to have sets ready for sizes that I need only rarely.
We keep a pair of LV snug-plug cutters at the drill press (3/8 and 1/2). These make terrific plugs, for either hole-drilling operation. If you push them really hard (like trying to make 100 plugs in maple in 5 minutes) the "arms" occasionally break, but they can't be faulted for that. Under normal use I find them to be excellent.
DR
Thanks Ring and Pondfish. Looks like Fuller's where I'll go for both. Will pick up one of the single-flute countersinks for metal.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 8/18/2006 11:29 am by forestgirl
For a plain old countersink, WWer's Supply has something they call PERFECT COUNTERSINKS, catalog no. 960-000 for a set of 4, but also sold separately. Maybe that is what you call single-flute. I do know that they work better than anything else after the hole is drilled in wood. I don't know whether they are good for metal or not. I don't use them on metal since I don't want to risk dulling. I have used their tapered bit set for years. Don't know why it isn't worn out, but have no idea how it compares to others. I know it was less expensive when I bought it.Cadiddlehopper
Yep, those are the "single flute" cutters of which I spoke. I get the impression they were originally designed for metal work. I can see why they'd be a good choice for countersinking a hole that's already drilled. Fuller's running away with the prize here! ;-)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Look at the fuller J type countersinks. When I worked for a dealer we used to sell the C type but once customers tried the "J" type they never went back. The C type are the common ones sold but they tend to spin from torque. The J type are much more sensible. I recommend you use regular drill bits. The tapered ones are for the old traditional wood screws which hardly anyone uses anymore.
http://www.circlesaw.com/ShoppingCart/catalog1322_0.html Ok
http://www.circlesaw.com/ShoppingCart/catalog1323_0.html Best
McFeely's sells the Fuller plug cutters, countersinks, stop colors, and drills. They have brad point, standard point and taper point drills that fit the fuller countersinks. They have the full selection of sizes for different type screws and hard and soft woods and a chart with recommendations on which to use for what.
I've used the Fuller combination countersinks and have found them to be very good. I have some Stanley plug cutters from a long time ago and another set of plug cutters that my Dad had, but no brand that I can find, these have a rim almost like a forstner bit but it has one break in the rim. These actually make a smoother cut, at least in some woods, than the Stanley's which look a lot like the Fuller plug cutters.
Hope this helps,
I can see why they'd be a good choice for countersinking a hole that's already drilled.
I was having diggens of a time getting a smooth cut counter sink with the screw head exposed and I have tried several styles of counter sink bits, each one more expensive than the last... but it turns out it was technique. If the countersink is drilled first THEN the screw hole the counter sink is perfect. I was told this by an plane (aircraft) builder last year at Oshkosh EAA. His plane was an award winning Great Lakes (fabric covered bi-plane) and the screws that held the engine cowling were dead flush with the surface and each of the slots were aligned with one another. The craftsmanship was amazing.
Sounds like you knew this though.
Yep, I've know that for awhile, but stuff happens as they say. ;-)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I've had good luck with the single flute type countersink, In a pinch I used it on mild steel with great results and no chatter. But I think the Weldon c/sinks are better(but more pricey) but they must be used with a pilot hole as they have a blunt tip. I have Fisch and the Generic 4 prong tapered plug cutters that everybody sells and have found that the Fisch are marginally better and not worth the added cost. I generally make 100+ plugs at a time and store what I don't use. Using a 3-4" wide board, cut the plugs on the drill press and then resaw the board on the bandsaw to remove the plugs. Masking tape on the plug ends saves making a mess. Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Thanks for the tips, Bruce. This thread has been very helpful!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
hola forest girl,
them single flute countersinks is a real good investment. Try taking any other countersink you want to and countersink a hole in aluminium, then try one of those.... you'll see why they are the choice of glaziers everywhere.No chatter, BUT... also no depth stop.
As for plug cutters, I'm personally partial to the greenlee plug cutters, also marketed by craftsman, of some years ago. They are so massive that they can withstand a tad of heat when yer cutting a hundred or so plugs at a time.
I may be mistaken, but as far as I know the only source is ebay now.
I have the Veritas tapered plug cutters, just never use em out of some perhaps misguided dogmatic belief. They could be OK. I do know that any cheapo plug cutters (VA, offshore brands) have at best a short life.
Hope that perspective helps
Eric in Calgary
Take a look at the woodworkers supply of new mexico catolog they have some plug cutters that look really good I have the LV tappered plug cutters and they tend to burn the sides of the plug when you cut them. Also Fuller has some quality bits as well.
Good luck
Troy
Hola forestgirl....Cowtown once agin.
rummaging through catalogues to find an adress for someone elses query, I came across this cataglogue from WL Fuller
http://wlfuller.com/
Want plug cutters?
look at this catalogue. Some even look suspiciously like lee valley stuff.
Eric
May be the other way around. I think Fuller was doing it before LV.John
I have used the Lee Valley, Fiuller and Woodworker's Supply plug cutters. Hands down the best is the Woodworker's Supply version. Just excellent.
I have had a few from LV that were not concentric with the shank. Big time wobble and not usable.
Glenn
I've found the Montana plug cutters to be excellent on the job because of their spring loaded points. No drill press needed.
I stopped into the local Rockler store a month ago and spotted the Montana Brand plug cutter display. After looking them over and seeing that they were about only such items I've seen that was still made in the USA, I bought the 3/8" size. I've got about 700+ more plugs to cut from scrap ipe (for the deck being built) and one of the most time comsuming jobs has been cutting plugs with all other plug cutters I've tried. The only design that does't need to be firmly clamped when used in a drill press is the Montana with its spring-loaded center point. I'm completely sold. For comparison, I can cut better plugs about 4 times faster with the Montana compared to any of the other types and brands, including all that have been mentioned elsewhere on this topic.
Hi Glenn. I'm browsing over at WW Supply, found the plugs but no price. Maybe I haven't had enough coffee this morning? On this page. Says "Limited to quantity on hand" I wonder if they've sold out. Oh well......
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 8/18/2006 11:26 am by forestgirl
Out of stock? Huh? I think they are worth waiting for. Others are good also, but having used most they definitely stood out in terms of cool running and cleaness of the cut. You'll like then, Glenn
Haven't done any ordering yet. Been on a lighting craze in the house this week, picking out fixtures and replace old cr*p. I'll check again beforehand, assuming I don't electrocute myself.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Lighting, Sounds like you are on the last steps. Good luck
" Sounds like you are on the last steps." Ohhhh, this isn't in the shop, it's in the house and it's the first step toward tearing stuff out and replacing it -- floors, cabinets, etc., etc. Shop will be next summer.
The days are going shorter here in the Great Northwest and my craving for light is growing exponentially! There isn't one room that has had decent lighting, so that's target #1. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FORESTGIRL.
mY PLUG CUTTER FINALLY STARTED TO GET DULL SO i WENT AND BOUGHT ANOTHER,
(oops caps lock)
It's made by wolfcraft, cost $7.00 and somewhere around 990 plugs is about all that you can expect out of it (at least in black walnut)
I get it. I am in the NW also, Bainbridge Island, WA. Good luck on the project.
Glenn
Welllll, fancy that! I'm on Bainbridge also. Cool today, isn't it?!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Small world isn't it. Where on BI? I am off Battle Point Dr. on Beach St. Glenn
We're more toward the middle of the island. I take our Golden Retriever out to BP Park periodically for tracking lessons from a friend. HOw long have you been here?? You don't happen to know someone with a portable mill do you? I have two piles of logs I really want cut up, but the one guy I called never showed for the appointment!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I ahve been on BI since '79. Built my home there.
Re Sawmill:
Yes, His name is Nick, his mill is on the SE corner of Battle Point & Tolo. If you drive, S. on Battle Point from this intersection, in about 200' you'll see it thru a dirt driveway on the left after passing his home. Right now he has a bunch of fletches leaning against the mill/ I think it is a Multi-Dimension Mill.
He does a good job and has done some 1/4 sawn fir, local cherry and madrona for me over the past years. He is also portable and can mill on site. He works (I think) with his grandson. He visited my shop a few weeks ago to discuss selling fancy stuff on Ebay as I buy quite a bit there, mostly 1/4s red/white oak from Oklahoma. Nick appears to have one oar in the water, but he is honest and does nice work. Last I knew he was $1/BF.
I don't know his tel. #. Glenn
Thanks, Glen, I'll go out there and see if I can connect with him. I have a huge pile of cedar that I want to cut up for fencing, was going to do it on the bandsaw, but we're so far behind on house projects I just don't have time!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
forestgirl
Since I have about a bizzion plugs to install in my flooring I feel somewhat of an expert on both plug cutters and countersinks..
I like a basic, simple, centerpoint drill for my plug holes.. fast last a long time and don't ever wander..
I made some stops but I've since found that a piece of tape is just fine.
I tried the plug cutters that lee valley makes and was really disapointed considering how expensive they were..
Too slow!
I buy the basic plug cutter that Home Depot makes, sit at the drill press and can make hundreds of plugs at a crack.. They pop out of the cutter on their own if they break off and if not it only takes a second to remove them from the board I make them from..
I'll bet I've tried 6 differnt plug cutters.. Home depot is the fastest and easiest to use..
I should look up what brand they are I suppose..
"I should look up what brand they are I suppose.." That would help ;-) Thanks Frenchy.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I really wish you would take a look at the bronze ring-shanked common nails from Jamestown Distributors. The plugged floors are a mimic of the old nailed floor boards and the nails I mention are faster, look better and althought you have to pre-drill because the bronze is soft, they will never come out and they look terrific. They either maintain the original bronze color or in wear areas they actually polish.I am sorry that I don't have a photo of the planked white ash floor I installed in a log home I built but for the price of a box of those nails to run some samples would be a great investment.John
I have the LV tapered drills+countersinks and plug cutters. They are identical in quality to a good Fuller set. You should use these bits whenever you sink a wood screw, and should be part of your standard gear.
The only down side of the LV kit versus the Fullers is the cheap plastic box versus the wood box the Fullers come in.
Get either brand, but by all means, get one of them.
Hi, Pond. Was just finishing up my Lee Valley order this morning at breakfast. I'm leaning toward the LV drilling kit mainly because the Fuller sets don't have the tapered plug cutters unless you order the kits that are over $100 (those kits have the quick-change set-up and included tapered cutters). Am I right in thinking that the tapered cutters are going to give the best results?
These sets are pretty expensive (on my scale) so want to make the right choice initially.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I've got the LV kit and the tapered plug cutters are great. I don't think you'll go wrong with the LV set, so go ahead and plunk down the $75 or so.Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
I'm on my way. Gotta go through the list one more time, be sure I didn't leave anything off. Have a little spree-money set aside from the sale of my business, and LV gets their share. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
forestgirl,
I second cowtown's WL Fuller recomendation. I've been using them for 35 years, since building wooden boats in Connecticut. W.L. Fuller is in Rhode Island, as is Jamestown Distributors - http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/main.do, were just "next door" to my boat shop. Jamestown is another great resource.
I still often use and keep sharp all my original plug cutters, counter sinks, and tapered bits. Check that last item as well, because they make the job of drilling and countersinking for wood screws easy. I now use SPAX - http://www.spax.com/usa/ - screws now for cabinet work. Those have combination Robertson (square)/Phillips heads, don't need a stepped or tapered pilot drill, and driver bits don't cam out.
Gary W
gwwoodworking.com
OOps, Those LV single flute counter sinks your looking at are just like the Weldon cutters I was talking about, The other ones have a single flute like a router bit.
Size, 3/8 mostly sometimes 1/2. A matter of asthetics and proportion.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Edited 8/27/2006 9:45 pm ET by BruceS
Edited 8/27/2006 10:07 pm ET by BruceS
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