Hello All,
I am looking for some help in choosing a nice hard finish for my kitchen cabinets. I will be building them from maple, and will probably be using some form of stain. I do have an automotive style spray gun that I have used with nice results spraying latex enamel. I am leaning towards lacquer. If any of you folks like lacquer, which specific brand?
I was in one of the Woodcraft stores, and the salesman suggested General Finishes High Performance Polyurethane Top Coat, which is water based.
Is this a good strong product? I have always assumed that oil based finishes would be stronger that water based.
I appreciate any help!
Thanks,
John
Replies
Nitrocellulose lacquer. Any brand with a high gloss and high solids content. (read over 22-24%)
Jackplane,
I also have heard that I need an HVLP sprayer. Can I get by with an automotive spayer? This is the one that I have;http://www.huskytools.com/Product.aspx?pid=e7206c8e-03b8-4b31-82e1-c26054ca42a0&cid=801431 I heard that there is less waste with an HVLP sprayer, but purchasing one would be expensive. Some people do rent them.Thanks,John
Yes, your spray gun can do the job. You will get more overspray than with an HVLP gun, but for a single job (or even many jobs) the impact on the environmant is too small to even worry about.
I advise staying away from nitrocellulose lacquer with maple. The maple will yellow big time, and yellow maple is very ugly. The choises of finish are very wide. Commercial shops use catylized varnish either pre cat or post cat. If you've never worked with these, you'll have a bit of a learning curve. Ask your paint store guy for advice and follow it.
Or use CAB-Acrylic lacquer. It goes down water-white, will not yellow maple and prevents maple from yellowing itself. It handles just like nitrocellulose.
A very good option is a water-borne polyurethane. Spray it just as it comes out of the can. It acts as its own sanding sealer (first coat) level every coat well, especially the first one which will raise the grain. Give each application a day to dry, 2 if you can. At least 4 coats. Let the last one harden for 3-4 weeks then rub out 320, 420, 4-0 steel wool.
Rich
I spray sherwin williams precat laquer with an inexpensive hvlp spray kit. I purchased a wagner fine spray hvlp kit from a Menard's in my area. I was amazed at how well it worked ,that I' ve bought additional guns. When you first open the box and take out the equipment you think its another waste of money( $100), but it does an great job! Ive sprayed atleast a half dozen kitchen jobs with the thing.
Oh, I can get the precat at my local SW stores.
I've found almost all waterborne stuff to be softer than the solvent based. The waterborne raises the grain terribly on open grained woods, but should be ok on maple.
It raises the grain on maple also. I just consider this a part of the preparation. Once the "seal coat" hardens it sands very easily and the surface is then beautifully even for the rest of the process. Rich
Fuhr and Target Coatings make finishes that are specifically designed for kitchen cabinets and meet KCMA requirements. Fuhr 355 is supposedly 'idiot proof' - works for me.
I have experience with both Fuhr and Target Finishing's pre-catalyzed lacquers... and found Target Finishing's product to be superior. It levels faster and gives me less problems.
Marty
Isn't pre-cat a solvent based finish? I can't say that you are wrong; I haven't used Target, it may be a superior finish but you can't have less problems than none.
Edited 12/18/2006 8:31 pm by polarsea1
Yes, I have that same issue. Pre-catalysed lacquer is a solvent based product--not made by either Fuhr or Target. But, the makers of waterborne acyrilic finishes have decided that they must market finishes under familiar names. They are not at all similar in chemistry. But, since solvent based pre-cat is an excellent finish for kitchen cabinets, the waterborne product that is most satisfactory in that application is labeled as the equivalent.
I guess it is still like the bad old days when California wine makers had to sell Sauternes and Clarets instead of the varietal based names. Now even European makers sell cabernet sauvignon and merlot rather than generic Bordeaux.
Clarence,
I would second what rich said abouth the CAB-Acrylic. Either that or Conversion Varnish. I get mine from Sherwin Williams.
I do have concerns as to whether or not your gun will spray any of this stuff well. If you have had good results with latex enamel, then I would think that your tip size is much too large for fine finishing. I would test your intended finish well before you pull the trigger on those new cabinets.
Good Luck
Lee
Thanks for the replies. What is a brand of CAB-Acrylic? I may have to buy a finer tip for my sprayer. I am assuming that tips are fairly standard in size. Any "tips" on tips?Thanks,john
CAB Acrylic is not at all like real lacquer, and does not offer the same hardness, durability, or "depth" of appearance that traditional lacquer offers.
The next smaller size nozzle and smaller needle should work fine.
Jack,
Not sure where you are getting your cab-acrylic from, but in my experience it offers way more hardness and durability than traditional laquer.
Lee
Clarence,
I like Sherwyn Williams. Get their CAB-Acrylic and the companion high solids sanding sealer. Each comes in a minimum size of 1 gallon. I have'nt used the gun you pictured, but I have used really cheap guns with Cab-Acrylic, nitrocellulose and water-borne varnishes and never had to change the nozzle at all. Cab-Acrylic handles just like nitrocellulose.
The real problem is that you've not had experience with any of these finishes. I strongly encourage you to give Varathane's water borne poly varnish a test run on some scrap pieces. It is as forgiving a finish as you can find. Leveling each dry coat with 320 will deal with any runs, drips, dust, etc.
Give the final coat several weeks to dry and rub it out to 4-0 steel wool level, or a little higher grit, maybe 600-800 grit wet-or-dry lubricated with mineral spirits or water (1 qt with a drop of dishwashing soap) and you will get a soft luster, semi matte (not high gloss) which is just about the most popular finish on maple kitchen cabinets at this time, very pleasing.
Whatever finish you try, you are going to need to do a lot of practicing first.
Rich
The standard for small to medium sized pro shops specializing in kitchen cabinets is Pre Catalysed Lacquer (AKA Precat). It sprays easily, requires no mixing or fussing, has a pretty good shelf life (30 to 90 days) and is very very durable. The down sides are very nasty chemicals, the "long shelf life" might seem short to some, but if you buy the finish when you need it and know that it wont be good for the next job then it is plenty of time. It will also yellow over time, but much more slowly that Nitro or Varnish. There are new varieties that claim to never yellow, but even the older Precat finishes didn't yellow fast enough to matter. Finally Precat has specific schedules for recoating and high humidity can cause problems. There is also post catalysed lacquer and it has the same properties except that is requires mixing the calalyst before spraying, has a short pot time but a long shelf life. It is also a little more picky about the recoating window.
Conversion Varnish is simular to Postcat. It requires mixing a catalyst before spraying and it has a specific schedule to follow. It is the most durable common finish availible, never yellows, the most resistant to any and all chemicals, heat, light, water, humidity, abrasion, you name it. It also has high solids so two coats is enough and it is self sealing. Down sides are that it is said to eat away guns with aluminum fluid passages so you need a gun with stainless steel passages. Though I have a aluminum gun and have not seen any erosion after 3 large jobs. The chemicals involved are probably the worst you could use in this industry.
Nitro lacquer is most commonly used in archaetechual work when wear is not a concern, and by shops that dont want to try Precat. If you walk into any paint store and ask for Lacquer, they will give you a can of Nitro. Only specialty shops will have Precat. Sherman Williams has a comercial division store in most metro cities and they will have all the good stuff. Nitro seems like the easiest to spray at first, but after using other products I find it to be too quick to dry and has a lot of dry fall with my setup (turbine). It also dosent level as well.
The number one, shure fire way to know if the finish is suitable for kitchen cabinets is to see if it is KCMA approved, and what sealers are needed to meet the standard. Any product meant for Kitchens will have the testing results on the data sheet. This includes specific information like its stain, heat and water resistance measured in time and other standard units. When you look at the tests Conversion varnish is the clear (no pun intended) winner.
I recomend Precat if you are not experienced with spraying large jobs. It is forgiving and not too expensive. Some are even self sealing.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
I agree with all of Mike (Mudman)'s advice to clarence. It is all excellent advice. I would just like to add a note about the conversion varnish. I use it exclusively to finish kitchen cabinets, with a conventional devilbiss gun (all aluminum). I was a little worried about the chemicals eating away at the aluminum, but after about 50+ gallons, I can't see any difference in the aluminum whatsoever.
Personally, I love the stuff. 2 coats yields about 4-6 mils of finish after drying, and the fact that it is self-sealing and I don't need another sealer (and another catalyst) is great. I just don't want to see someone scared off because of the aluminum gun deal.
Finally, I have seen mentioned by a couple of other posters about rubbing out the finish. Personally, I think that's a waste of time for kitchen cabinets. I wouldn't bother with all of that extra work. Not to mention that could amount to a huge amount of rubbing out. We are not talking about a dining table or a highboy here. Find a finish that works and you are comfortable using, and get it in the sheen you want to end up with. Spray as much as you want to build the finish, then put them up and enjoy them.
Good luck, and let us know how they turn out.
Lee
I'm flatterd. Seriously though I am glad to hear that you havent had any problems with your gun. I never leave finish in the gun longer than necessary.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
I never leave finish in the gun longer than necessary
Me either, and I use cup liners, which really make clean-up a breeze.
As far as the compliment, you're welcome. I believe in giving credit where credit is due. Instead of trying to get someone to use what you use because you think it's better, you laid out all the options so the guy could pick for himself. I can appreciate that kind of advice.
Lee
I need to get some liners. I used to not worry so much because I recycle solvents untill they are "dead". But with the stuff needed to clean after Conversion Varnish I want to use as little as possible. I have been thinking about fabricating a gun cleaner using a pump and fittings that would force the cleaner (under very low pressure) through the gun and recirculate. At least then I wouldn't be atomising 80% of the cleaner solvents when trying to clean the gun.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Mike,
That's a splendid idea about the gun cleaner. Never would have thought of that on my own. But I may have to steal the idea from you! Gun cleaners are quite expensive, sometimes more than the gun itself, but I guess if you spend $600+ on a gun it's an investment protection. By the way, I get my cup liners at Woodworker's Supply, something like 150 per box for about $12. They have 1 quart and 2 quart as well.
Lee
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