Replies

1. 
   nikkiwood | May 29, 2004 07:24am | #1

   There really isn't anything mysterious about concocting your own wipe-on polyurethane.

   You can simply combine paint thinner and the poly of your choice -- mixing proportions to get a solution that is easy to wipe. I generally start with a 1/3 paint thinner, 2/3 poly mixture, but don't hesitate to thin further if necessary. Some polys are thinned out more than others (straight from the can).

   Some will argue that you might also add boiled linseed oil to the mix, but after trying it several times, I could not see that it added anything to the final result.

   Number of coats? If you would typically do three coats by brushing, you will want to do at least 4-5 coats with the wipe-on technique. Remember, you are basically applying thinner coats, so you need more applications for the same level of finish.

   Remember too, rubbing down between coats will give you a smoother surface in the end.

   As far as gloss level is concerned, that's up to your own taste. For me, the satin sheen products deliever the kind of soft glow I look for in a hand rubbed finish.

2. 
   Dave45 | May 29, 2004 07:53am | #2

   If you want to use poly but not get the amber tone, you'll need to use a water based poly.  I use Minwax water based a lot and it works quite well.

   If your concerned about the final appearance, get some pine and make a few sample pieces.

3. 
   hammer1 | May 29, 2004 08:44am | #3

   Way to go Wendy. I just did a shelf unit too. Narley old knotty elm, not too different from knotty pine. In my opinion folks like to over coat their finishes. I had a can of polyurethane on the shelf so I used it. I like to strain my coating materials. I applied one light coat, sanded with 220, I like the new Norton 3X, buffed with 0000 steelwool and applied a coat of paste wax. The problems with the plastic look of poly come with multiple coats, same with drips. The first coat usually sinks in if you don't puddle it on and double check for runs. I have spray equipment and professional coatings but on this one I used a foam brush. I would buff my spray anyway and it was quicker than cleaning my gun. Wiping and gel polys are fine but you need more than one coat and getting in corners and not leaving lint and wipe marks takes care. Sanding and buffing out is what really makes the difference with any finish.

1. 
   wendy1 | May 29, 2004 04:46pm | #4

   Hi Hammer,

   Just curious... Why the preference for Norton 3X? I've never heard of that product.  Could you tell me more about this "buffing" process. I lightly sand with 320 grit sandpaper after applying the first coat. Then I use 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper between the 2nd and 3rd coats. I've never tried using furniture paste wax.  The only time I use that is for buffing the cast iron table on my saw. 

   I really should buy a good book on finishing. Jewitt's book might be a start.

   Wendy

   PS..  doesn't steelwool tend to leave behind tiny bits in the finish? Perhaps I've been using the wrong grade of steelwool.  I like to stick with sandpaper. Is there that much difference in the finish... steelwool vs sandpaper? 

1. 
   nikkiwood | May 29, 2004 07:48pm | #5

   The Norton 3X is a sterated sandpaper, designed primarily to sand finishes. But I think it is a wonderful product, and I use it everywhere else as well; I'm no abrasives expert, so I can't explain why it cuts better and lasts longer than regular aluminum oxide -- but it does. It also seems to outperform the competing products from 3M (their gold line).

   I live in 3M country (MN), so it is hard to come by; Rockler does carry it, but the price is steep.

   Wax as a finish (either with or without a sealer) has been used since forever. The resulting finish looks good, but is fragile -- and you pretty much have to commit to a lifetime of rewaxing periodically. Also, I have always had a hard time getting the wax to buff out evenly, so I have stopped using it.

   Steelwool is a problem only if you are using a water based finish, since invisible bits of the wool will rust under the finish. Woven abrasive pads (e.g. ScotchBrite from 3M) is a better choice, and many use them exclusively when a finish needs to be rubbed out. They come color coded for abrasiveness, and the maroon and gray pads work well for wood finishing (the gray is finer than maroon).

   You should still use sandpaper to abraid the surface of your finish, since it will shear off any dust nibs or pieces of glunk. I use sandpaper on flat surfaces and abrasive pads on edges or rounded areas -- wherever the sandpaper might cut through the finish.

   Jeff Jewitt is the reigning guru among finishing experts, and I would urge you to visit a bookstore to survey his various offerings, to see which one best meets your needs. You should also check out Bob Flexner's UNDERSTANDING WOOD FINISHES. It is about 10 years old now, so some of the product info is dated. But overall, I think he does the best job of debunking many of the myths in finishing, and then laying down a knowledge base that will help you understand what you should be doing (to get a certain result) and why.

2. 
   hammer1 | May 31, 2004 03:25pm | #6

   Norton 3X is a fairly new product. It does not load up when used on a top coat and it does last 3 times as long as ordinary papers, hence the name. You certainly can use finer paper than 220 if you choose. Time is money for my customers so I try to cut unecessary steps without sacraficing appearence or durability. A shelf unit is not a grand piano so I take a pragmatic aproach and match the finish and my effort to the piece. There are tons of finish choices out there. One brand of off the shelf poly can be different from another and recommendations for its' application may vary. When building multiple coats of polyurethane, not my recommendation, many brands need a mechanical bond between coats. Therefore you scratch the surface with sandpaper to create little ridges for the following coat to grip. Paper finer than 220 in this case is not a good choice. Knotty pine is not porous like mahogany so a single coat of poly will slightly penetrate as well as provide a slight surface film. It may not look or feel that way to you but there is plenty on there for a utility piece. I could sand to a very fine grit but it is more and un-needed work, so 220 works for me. The more sanding you do the more finish is removed. 0000 steel wool, in turn, easily removes the 220 marks and produces a surface that only micro me$h can match. On boats we use bronze wool in case remnants of the steel remain in the cracks, leading to rust. There are also synthetic pads in varying grits that are also popular. For the money I like steel wool on close grained woods like pine. Steelwool has a slicing action as opposed to the grinding grit action of sandpaper. This will look like a dull matte finish until you wax it. Waxing brings the finish up to a nice look and feel somewhere between a semi-gloss and matte. Keep the wax very light, and always work with the grain. This look is very complimentary to a rustic wood like knotty pine, allowing its' natural characteristics to the forefront. Building a surface finish with multiple coats will act more as a reflector of light and the plastic look of poly will become evident, not to mention all the problems with dust and runs. I'm delivering my unit today so I'll try to get a picture. Good luck.

3. 
   nikkiwood | Jun 02, 2004 01:13am | #8

   I must gently disagree with the previous poster ((#8).

   Shellac is a wonderful, classic finish -- but in order to get a decent look when brushing, it takes speed (because it sets up fast) and experience. And then to bring out its best virtues as a finish, you really have to rub it out -- which requires a whole different skill set.

   I would urge you to stay on track with the wipe-on poly -- either the Minwax version (which I know well) or the mix-your-own variety. This stuff is pretty much goof-proof, and the resulting finish is more durable than anything else you can apply by hand (as opposed to spraying).

   As for the "plastic" look of poly, I have never found this to be the case with the wipe-on products. But this is a matter of individual perception, so it would be best to try it out on a scrap -- and judge for yourself.

   Good luck.

1. 
   Gretchen | Jun 02, 2004 03:07pm | #9

   As for the "plastic" look of poly,

   There is a cure for that. Don't use polyurethane varnish. Use an oil based varnish that is NOT poly such as Pratt & Lambert. It is durable and gives a lovely deep finish. It can be prepared as a wipe on for a practically foolproof finish. Wipe on at least 6 coats. Sand very lightly after the third application.Gretchen

1. 
   nikkiwood | Jun 04, 2004 08:24am | #11

   To Gretchen -- re: alkyd varnish

   I haven't used the Pratt & Lambert, but I have tried this with a Ben. Moore alkyd varnish. I couldn't for the life of me see the difference -- using polyurethane vs. alkyd. Was that because of my tired, old eyes?

   Tell us more......... like, how do you mix it, and with what?

2. 
   mike4244 | Jun 03, 2004 12:15am | #10

   That's why I suggested a one pound cut. She should be able to brush on an acceptable finish. I do agree with your post, especially the " gentle disagreement" part.Your probably right about wipe on finishes, I have never used them myself, so I can't comment on them.

   mike

4. 
   mike4244 | Jun 01, 2004 07:03pm | #7

   Wendy, the only finish I would reccomend is shellac. If you would like to darken the pine for the aged look use orange shellac. If you want almost no color change you can use blonde. Most cans of shellac are a 3lb cut, in a separate container add 2 times the amount of denatured alcohol as shellac. This will give you a one pound cut, easier to apply but you need to add more coats.I'm assuming you would brush it if you decide to use shellac. Dries quickly, looks great and no stain or other colorant is needed.Probably orange shellac would look best on your bookcase, just my opinion.

   Each coat slightly darkens the pine, stop when you reach the desired hue.Use a good brush for shellac, I use a  Purdy. Available any decent paint or hardware store, even big box stores carry Purdy brushes.You can experiment on the underside of the shelves for the look you want.

   mike

5. 
   HowardAcheson | Jun 04, 2004 06:32pm | #12

   There are two types of wipe on finishes. One is an oil/varnish mixture similar to Watco Danish Oil, Antique Oil and most "Tung Oil Finishes". These products contain about equal parts of varnish, boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits. They are wiped on, let set for 20 minutes and wiped dry. They are an "in the wood" type penenetrating finish. The leave the look and feel of the wood and offer more protection than a plain boiled linseed oil or true tung oil finish.

   The second wipe on type is a thinned wiping varnish. Formby's Tung Oil Finish is an example but both Minwax and Watco make wiping varnishes also. These products are standard varnish thinned about 50/50 with mineral spirits. You wipe them on and let them be. Don't wipe them off. You can apply subsequent coats as soon as the prior coat is tack free. No sanding unless you want to flatten the surface. Apply 3-4 coats on no abused surfaces or 5-6 on things like tabletops. Once dry, these products are a real varnish and offer all the protection you would expect from brushed on varnish. It's just easier for many to wipe on rather than brush.

   Howie.........