Getting ready to put finish on a new entry door I’ve been working on.
It’ll have a storm door in front of it so I’m not too worried about it getting beaten by snow and rain.
However I am concerned about UV protection since this will be a south facing door and it will get a lot of direct sunlight for much of the year.
My initial thoughts were several coats of Minwax Spar Urethane but was looking also for any alternatives either oil based or water based.
Replies
FWW isue #205 dealt with this subject and found that genuine marine varnish held up well. I also found it interesting that on the other finishes that did not perform as well as the Epifanes, it was the water and cold temperature cycle that degraded the finish more than UV exposure.
Personally, I have had good experience with a range of spar urethanes on a mahogany gate at my house but I brush on a new coat every spring and it's under a large japanese maple tree so it's protected from heavy direct sunlight even though it is fully exposed to rain in the winter (we don't get freezing temps).
Yes the Epifanes came out as an excellent product, but, 7 coats with a 24 hr.drying time between coats ? Cant imagine using that on my exterior woodwork.
Thats all that is used on this coast and also on those little floaty things in the bay that go north to Dutch Harbor, AK (that little warm spot where dey catches da crabbies)...Well, that's not quite true as there are some who swear by Glidden's best exterior latex.Seven coats isn't that bad...how many chisel blows and hand scribing and sanding operations to get to that point? Look at the brag points you accrue when you show it off!Also, FWW tests or no, Epifanes is hands down the best out there.
As to the 7 -8 coats, that is what Epifanes recommends if your door is out in the water, in direct sun all the time. Don't finish the door's rudder. They also recommend that since your door is floating under such hostile conditions, you may find it advisable to do an additional 1 -2 coats every year. Above the water line.(Just about all manufacturers of outside varnishes recommend re coating on a frequent annual basis.)On the other hand, if its just a door on a house that is somewhat protected and not floating, well... a few(many) less coats are needed. Even it's a South exposure.It seems everybody wants to rush.IMHOBoiler
Glass in the storm door will stop a fair percent of the UV, but it can also create a green house that risks overheating the door leading to rapid finish deterioration. I'd swap out the glass for screen when summer approaches.
A light colored gloss enamel would be the most durable finish choice. Or build a porch or add an awning.
If you must have a clear finish then definately go with the high end marine spar varnishes. Epifanes is the one that was tested in the FWW article and came out much superior to consumer grade spar varnish, and would be especially superior to consumer grade varnishes containing polyurethane.
The degree of UV protection depends on the thickness of the coatings. That is why Epifanes calls for seven coats. The UV protecting agents deteriorate as they are used, so that regular maintenance coatings are required. Unfortunately, too, the wood under the varnish eventually begins to deteriorate so that the adhesion between varnish and wood is reduced and you begin to see yellow patches that means it is time to strip it all off and start over.
Clear finishes in full sun are about the most difficult finishing task I know.
Edited 4/21/2009 8:55 am ET by SteveSchoene
"Grass in the storm door will stop a fair percent of the UV..."
I'd think that grass in the storm door would stop essentially all of the UV.
-Steve
And "r" isn't even typed with the same hand as "l".
Let me say that Minwax Helsman was the first finish to fail in Consumer Reports tests of outdoor products. It was so poor that they only included it for one year.
Any exterior finish that contains urethane or polyurethane will be problematic unless it contains copious amounts of UV protectorant. UV rapidly is attacked and degraded by exposure to sunlight and is the reason that urethane resin coating do poorly in sunlight.
Thats interesting because The Helmsman Spar Urethane says"Exceptional Protection From Sun" right on the can label. Can't believe everything you read.
>> Thats interesting because The Helmsman Spar Urethane says"Exceptional Protection From Sun" right on the can label. Can't believe everything you read.Yup, product labels are written by the marketing department. After the dismal performance of Helmsman, Minwax added more UV inhibitors. Didn't do much good. They have an enhanced UV resistant product called Clear Shield but it's still a poly product. It's the poly that's the problem. For exterior use, nothing beats a non-poly varnish. That's why most of the true marine exterior varnishes last the longest.Howie.........
I wonder why the FWW article didn't include in their test Sikkens Cetol clear finish? Here's a link to one seller: http://www.discountmarinesupplies.com/Varnishes_Wood_Care-SIKKENS_CETOL_WOOD_FINISH.html
I've used this stuff on a few outdoor projects (including Adirondak chairs), and it holds up as well as, if not better than, spar varnish. It's flexible, has UV inhibitors, and (the manufacturer says) it is "breathable."
Sikkens is about on par with upper-end exterior finishes in terms of price - about 30 bucks a quart - and it's available at many marine supply outlets. It goes on quite thin, to the point that it's liable to drip down your arm, so you need a few coats.
Anyone else used Sikkens? I suspect some of you boat people will probably have heard of it...
Zolton
If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
The clear Sikkens Cetol is meant as a top coat over pigmented (translucent) Cetol. I've used it, they work OK but don't really look all that much like varnish, and when they do fail they are harder to remove, and tend to darken, looking worse than failing varnish. Still require frequent maintenance to look good. It's really a fairly different class of product so it is understandable it wasn't included in the tests.
Z,I have and it's very, very good. I find it has limited surface finish qualities.
I just finished a can of Marine Light at $26/qt. Like Epifanes better, even with all its initial coats,it seems to have less annual "bother" than Sikkens. I wood definitely use it as a back up.
Perhaps I would consider it a toss up on furniture but I'd go with Epifanes on the door. I would also add that here on the water, that furniture that is left outside for the winter is covered and the rest goes in storage. When we don't have the raw Pacific storms in the winter, we have very frequent small stone hailstorms this time of the year - several times a day - a local phenomena in the first mile of land.
Magellan was a real comedian naming it the "Pacific'.Personal taste, I suppose.Boiler
If you had just gone through the straits at Tierra del Fuego, you'd think the Pacific was pretty benign by comparison, too.
-Steve
I suppose your right. After the straits he was probably "gellin"Which finish do you think he used :)Edit: spelling
Edited 4/22/2009 10:30 am by boilerbay
Pine tar, linseed oil and beeswax. To get it to really work well, you have to employ Malay slaves, which are hard to come by these days.
-Steve
Ted,
Just spent a couple of days researching this for a mahogany door I need to install and finish. I think I'm going to use a plan outlined in FW #179 using an Smith CPES epoxy primer and then Epifanes high gloss woodworkers finish followed with Epifanes Matte for a satin finish. You can find these products at jamestowndistributors.com along with a lot of technical data about how to use it.
The real beauty of this system is the penetration of the epoxy into the wood and the bond between the epoxy and the varnish. On virtually every door I've seen where the finish failed, it failed between the wood and the varnish, not between layers of varnish.
Ted, I agree with paulbny on the finish using Smith & Co. Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer (CPES), also sold as MultiWoodPrime as a sealer before applying a good quality marine varnish like Epifanes. His idea of adding a coat of Epifanes matte wood finish over the high gloss varnish is something I hadn't considered but it will work if you don't care for the gloss look.
Just remember that the UV inhibitors in the varnish don't last forever and will require maintenence coats. The Epifanes Matte Wood Finish has no UV inhibitors (most other marine varniish brands with matte finish don't either) so maintenence coats will require more High Gloss Varnish, topped with their Matte Finish, if desired.
As paulbny stated, the CPES bonds with the wood and the first coat of varnish when the varnish is applied before the CPES completely cures. The CPES penetrates into the wood and protects it from fungus that causes rot as well.
Folks may be wondering just how permanent the CPES might be. It can be removed down to the wood surface and then refinished (even stained) years from now if necessary or desired by simple sanding or scraping using a heat gun. The product below the surface will last, protecting the wood indeffinately.
In FWW-205, "Torture Test for Outdoor Finishes", the author included the product in one of his test samples but left out all of the advantages. See the article in FWW-179 that paulbny references for a fair evaluation of the product.
Al Benton
Okay bought the Smith CPES and the Epiphanes. Now I'm wondering if I should have bought the epoxy thinner too?
The CPES doesn't need thinner. It's thinner than thinner already. Use a throw-away brush and ventillate your work area if possible. This stuff smells alot like fingernail polish remover, very flamible so be careful handling it.
You can clean things with acetone before the epoxy cures. Apply the CPES, let it cure until it's not tacky but not more than 24 hours, then apply the first coat of varnish. I've actually applied varnish while it's still a little bit tacky. The solvents in the CPES chemically bond the epoxy to the varnish.
I haven't experienced any lifting of wood grain but I usually wipe bare wood with thinner or brushing liquid, let it evaporate, then sand it one last time, get all of the dust off with compressed air or a tack cloth, then start the CPES.
Al
I have experience with CPES on a sliding boat hatch I made. First of all, it is not 'clear' at all, more like a dark stain. Secondly, it is not epoxy - no hardening, no strengthening. It will however soak down into the grain, becoming impossible to ever remove, and essentially petrifies the wood, filling all the wood grain where water may soak in. It is essentially rot protection, that's it. I would skip the Smith's and go with just Epifanes.
paulbny - how is that door you described back in your Apr 22, 2009 05:59am post? I'd love to know how the treatment you described has held up after all these years.
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