Replies

1. 
   Kell | Oct 02, 2002 10:58pm | #1

   I've done a number of projects with walnut.  My favorite finish is to sand out to 320 grit.  Use Watco Danish oil, natural is my choice for walnut unless the customer wants it darker, following the directions on the can.  After doing the second application, allow the surface to dry over night.  Then apply the oil and wet sand with 400 grit wet/dry paper.  This should be sanded by hand until you think your arm will fall off; then go another ten minutes.  Wipe off the excess and let it dry over night.  Apply oil again and sand with 600 grit wet/dry paper.  Sand as long as you can stand it and then go another 10 minutes.  Wipe off the excess and let dry for two days.  Finally, rub out the finish with Minwax paste wax and 4-0 steel wool.  Do this once a week for a month, once a month for a year and once a year thereafter.  This finish begs to be touched. 

   Kell

2. 
   davamoore | Oct 03, 2002 11:34pm | #2

   Randy, I follow a process similar to the one described above (although I have to confess to not taking it to the point of losing an arm!), but I add one more step:

   To my eyes, kiln-dried walnut seems to have a somewhat greyish/greenish/cold cast when it's finished, even with a "natural" toned oil/varnish blend.  After applying the oil/varnish, I usually give the piece a single, light coat of a 1# cut dewaxed orange shellac.  This warms up the walnut, without making it overly reddish.  I imagine you could achieve the same effect by using various add-in dyes, but I haven't tried that method.

   Practice on a scrap piece first!  (And if you like the result, proceed with the real thing.)

   David

   Hmmm... the garden or the workshop today?
1. 
   Kell | Oct 04, 2002 04:33pm | #3

   Dave,

   That's a great idea.  I agree with your statement about the, sometimes, cold look.  This should be a great way to alleviate it and even up all the boards in a project if some don't have this color to them.  Thanks!

   Kell

2. 
   pors912 | Oct 04, 2002 04:59pm | #4

   David,

   At what step do you apply the shellac.  I may want to add this to the process but want to make sure it is done correctly.

   Thank you for that tip.

   Randy

1. 
   davamoore | Oct 04, 2002 11:39pm | #6

   Randy, I usually apply however many coats of oil/varnish that I'm planning to use, first, because I want the oil to penetrate as deeply into the wood as possible -- for the look and whatever protection it will offer.  Then I put on a light, thin coat of shellac and buff it down a bit before finishing with paste wax.

   I'm sure there are other ways, but so far I've been satisified with this method.

   DavidHmmm... the garden or the workshop today?

3. 
   DP | Oct 04, 2002 05:18pm | #5

   I agree that kiln dried walnut has a cold cast.  I prefer to stain the wood first with a natural walnut hull stain.  It gives it a very natural warm look and does an excellent job of evening out shade differences between heartwood and sapwood.  As always try first on a scrap piece.

1. 
   LeeEschen | Oct 06, 2002 01:36am | #7

   The real answer there is to not use kiln dried wood, especially walnut. Read James Krenov's "A Cabinetmaker's Notebook" for an interesting take on kiln drying and its effect on the wood.

   I know we're not all Krenov wanna be's, but he is a major player in woodworking and featured in many issues of FWW. He's likely to have forgotten more about wood and woodworking than I am ever likely to know. IMHO his words are worth listening to even if not completely heeded.

   Now I butcher my share of kiln dried lumber and plywood, not to mention MDF, hardboard, OSF, and even particleboard. I recover a lot of small pieces of Phillipine mahogany and other wood from shipping pallets (Kubota Tractors), but sometimes I want to do something really special and then I look to my local sources.

   I, for one, love using local woods, from local forests, sawn by small mills, or friends of mine who own Woodmizers. This wood is all air dried for 2-3 years and let to season for a month or so in the shop before using.

   The Pacific Northwest, and in particular, rural southwestern Oregon, where I live, has a great variety of woods, soft {pondorosa and sugar pines, hemlock, Doug fir, western red cedar, Port Orford cedar (white and gorgeous), and yew} and hard {Oregon maple, black (red) oak, white oak, chinkapin (like chestnut), Oregon ash, beech, myrtle, apple, cherry, and walnut} and the list goes on. No worry about legal/illegal imports, no expensive shipping costs. It's just about perfect.

1. 
   UncleDunc | Oct 06, 2002 02:11am | #8

   I suspect that I'm not the only one here who doesn't have Krenov's book nor the only one who isn't going to buy a copy to read his findings on kiln drying. Could you give us the executive summary?

1. 
   LeeEschen | Oct 06, 2002 10:45am | #9

   Uncle Dunc: I suspect that I'm not the only one here who doesn't have Krenov's book nor the only one who isn't going to buy a copy to read his findings on kiln drying. Could you give us the executive summary?

   ========

   Well, Uncle Dunc, I don't own the book myself, but I do have a library card. You might look into getting one yourself.

   Actually I do happen to have the book checked out at the moment, for probably the 4th time. So rather than summarize, I shall excerpt a short partial paragraph. I quote from page 12:

   "... I don't get kiln-dried wood because I think that kiln-dried wood has been killed. This is not a pun, but a fact. The process of saturating wood with steam and getting it all wet (to correct case hardening-Lee), cooking it, you might say, is a chemical process that changes and dulls the color of the wood , and the fibers are affected so that the wood which has been kiln-dried feels different to me. It's got a different ring, a different texture; it isn't clear and fine. It's like a poorly developed photograph--one that was taken well but just didn't come out. Besides, kiln-dried wood is brittle."

   Of course, the modern world has also produced central heating, which means the average home or office has extremely dry air all winter and wood that was not thoroughly dried will dry some more once it reaches its final destination. Still, we, as woodworkers of skill, know how to deal with some wood movement, don't we?

   Obviously, more folks than James Krenov have noticed differences in kiln-dried wood, as this thread has pointed out. I guess it's up to each individual woodworker to make his/her own choices. I just want us all to be aware that there ARE differences between kiln-dried and air-dried woods.

2. 
   UncleDunc | Oct 06, 2002 11:08am | #10

   Thanks. I appreciate you going to the trouble.

3. 
   LeeEschen | Oct 07, 2002 02:28am | #12

   Wow!! I don't believe it! Here I am talking about using local woods and an big, old white oak goes down just a few doors down the street. Some rot in the roots that let it fall but the trunk is solid. It looks like 2 16' logs with the largest about 3' diameter. I'm waiting for a call back from one of my local sawyers.

   Of course, it will be a few years drying time before it's ready to use, but I can wait.

4. 
   KevinLBS | Oct 17, 2002 08:10pm | #13

   Lee-

   SCORE!!! Talk about good fortune...

   Anyway, the reason I'm posting is because I'm making good progress with my walnut bookcase and I'm already thinking ahead about the finish.

   There was a thread here a couple months ago about shellac on walnut.  There was a lot of agreement about using garnet shellac on walnut because of it's color enhancement and similarity to finishes on antique pieces.  I liked what was said, and I bought some dewaxed garnet shellac.

   However, I have a concern that after 4-5 coats, the garnet shellac will thoroughly obscure the natural grain of the walnut.  Will it be safe to use  several coats of garnet shellac, or will it end up looking like a paint job?  Should I use some garnet and some blonde just for protection?

   What's the consensus?

   Kevin

5. 
   davamoore | Oct 17, 2002 10:02pm | #14

   Kevin, while there are some shellac experts out there who will probably respond after me, I'll give your question a shot, since I'm one of those folks who suggested using shellac to warm up the tone of kiln-dried walnut:

   From what I understand, the words "garnet" and "orange" shellac are sometimes used interchangeably... however, in my mind, I think of garnet shellac as being somewhat more red-brown in color, whereas orange shellac is more amber (slightly lighter).  Since I've only used orange (waxed and dewaxed) and dewaxed blonde shellac, I can only speak to my experience with those two.

   I'm also going to assume that, in your reference to obscuring the natural grain of the walnut, you mean the ability to see the grain rather than to feel it.  Is that correct -- in other words, a smooth finish is fine, but you don't want to lose the figure of the walnut?

   All that said, I don't believe that 4-5 coats of a one- or two-pound cut of orange shellac will obscure the grain all that much.  There will be some equalization of the dark brown and medium brown lines of grain, but not to the degree that it looks like a paint job.  Also, with the thinner cuts, you won't have all that much build up of finish.  But if it helps, it certainly wouldn't hurt to use orange and blonde shellac on the same piece, just in case.

   Best advice of all:  try out several combinations or orange and blonde shellac, at various cuts, on scrap pieces, then decide which you prefer.  Shellac dries quickly; you'll have your answer in no time... without tearing your hair out because you screwed up the real piece of art you've worked so hard on.

   DavidHmmm... the garden or the workshop today?

6. 
   KevinLBS | Oct 17, 2002 10:31pm | #15

   Hey David-

   I actually did get garnet shellac flakes direct from Hock instead of the orange, but I think everything you said still applies.  You're right in your assumption that I'm concerned about hiding the look of the grain- the visual figure in it.  I understand shellac is often used to fill pores on its own, but whether or not I do it right, I don't mind if the pores come out filled or not.

   As for making test pieces, you are truly wise.  I hadn't actually purchased the blonde shellac flakes yet, but better safe than sorry.

   My plan is to not do any test pieces until I actually complete construction of the case itself.  I've read that shellac does not age well, and I would like to use what I mix up before too long.

   Anyone else use garnet shellac on walnut? Any other experiences?

   Thanks Dave & everyone else,

   Kevin

7. 
   LeeEschen | Oct 18, 2002 12:54am | #16

   Kevin, it's just my personal opinion, but I prefer oil finishes on walnut. The natural Watco, or boiled linseed/turp at 50/50, have just enough amber in it to warm up the kiln dried walnut. I have nothing against shellac on any wood. I especially like it on light colored woods for clarity of grain. I guess I've been around fine firearms too much and grown to love what an oil finish does for custom gunstocks.

   --

   Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon

   On the Redwood Highway

8. 
   davamoore | Oct 18, 2002 01:20am | #17

   Lee, I agree with your fondness for the oil finish on walnut -- in fact, I love oil finishes in general.

   To clarify, in my first post in this thread you'll see that I appy the shellac after first applying the Watco... although, in my case I tend to use the Watco Light Walnut, only because it seems to even out (slightly) the tones in pieces/parts that might have come from different trees (I don't always have the opportunity to ensure that all of my wood is coming from the same tree).

   This just happens to be a combination that works for me.  It seems to get just the right color while still allowing the beauty of the wood to pop out.  And I don't have to fuss with dyes.

   Kevin, get out those scrap pieces and try Lee's suggestion, too!

   DavidHmmm... the garden or the workshop today?

9. 
   LeeEschen | Oct 18, 2002 05:41am | #18

   Yes, I noticed that, Dave, and I predict that it wolud do a knock out job. I haven't tried that combination, but I certainly will, though probably on other than walnut, unless I can persuade FG to part with some of her famous walnut in exchange for some of my white oak.

   --

   Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon

   On the Redwood Highway

   Edited 10/17/2002 10:41:44 PM ET by Lee

2. 
   AllenS51 | Oct 20, 2002 07:53pm | #19

   What is a Walnut hull stain?  Where do you get it and who makes it?  Is there a certain way to apply?  Will this take all of the sapwood out and make the piece a uniform color?  Thanks for the advice.

   Allen

1. 
   davamoore | Oct 21, 2002 03:39pm | #20

   Allen, here's a link to one of the recipes that was offered here... there are others, but even though I did an Advanced Search using "from the beginning of time" as the timeframe, I didn't get some others that I know are out there...

   http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages/?msg=8412.1

   DavidHmmm... the garden or the workshop today?

2. 
   DP | Oct 21, 2002 05:26pm | #21

   You make walnut hull stain by soaking ground dried walnut hulls in distilled water for a few days.  After filtering you need to add about a tablespoon of household ammonia per quart of stain to prevent it 'fermenting' and turing into a very unpleasant mess.  Some recommend soaking the hulls in ammonia, but I haven't found that necessary.  Proportions can vary but I loosely fill a quart jar with the hulls, add distilled water and let stand.  You can usually get a 'second pressing' out of the hulls if you're so inclined.  I find that it does an excellent job of blending in sapwood with the heartwood and if one coat doesn't do the trick, a second usually will.  It also gives the walnut a rich warm tone that I find very pleasing.   You can get ground walnut hulls from Kremer Pigments in NYC (1-800-995-5501).  Further information can be found in Sam Allen's book 'Classic Finishing Techniques', p.101.  There's also an article in the Finishing Line section of FWW within the last couple of years.  Sorry I don't have the exact reference; if I find it I'll let you know.   

3. 
   gsark | Oct 06, 2002 05:50pm | #11

   Another vote for shellac. You'll warm the wood up a bit. Sand with 320 grit between coats. The feel of shellac'd wood is unbeatable. Its pretty easy to work with, too. If you goof up, just rub down with alcohol and keep going. Finally, you can brush, spray or wipe on.  Build as much shine as you want.