Just wondering if anyone could recommend an excellent over the counter spray finish for semi-gloss or gloss finishes? Mohawk, Polyurethane, Lacquer, Minwax water based poly?? I want something I can be happy with spraying small table tops and jewelry boxes until I’ve saved up enough for a good HVLP unit and I am tired of rubbing out built-up finishes.
Thanks!!
Replies
geppetto425
Let me recommend that you try shellac..
It's really designed for guys who can't use a paint brush to save their soul..
I'm one such a clutz.. I always wind up with more finish on me than on whatever I'm working on..
Runs, drips, and sags are my specialty.
Not to mention brush marks and skipped areas..
So what I do is take some shellac (you can buy it already mixed at the big box stores like Home depot Zinsler is the brand most common..
Buy two gallons of denatured alcohol at the same time..
Now mix up the shellac. (it will settle to the bottom of the can but a quick stir with a stir stick or paint brush quickly mixes everthing)
two parts of alcohol to one part shellac.
It's now as watery as well, water or even if it's possible waterier?
Now the fun part..
Slop away!
Yes I mean it. don't try to be neat, try to be fast..
Now wait.. If you are in a hurry wait about 15 minutes. Now OK, to give it a lite sanding with some 220 paper.. When I mean light I do mean lite! It's OK if you need to take more time to do other things like have a life etc..
It will patiently sit there and wait for you to get back around to it.. a day, week,month, year, decade, century, heck it don't care..
Be quick and semi lazy, about 10 seconds per bd.ft. All you are doing is knocking off the fuzz that was raised..
Once you've knocked off the fuzz you can slop some more on.. You see the alcohol will disolve the previous coat and just about as quickly dry again.
Three quick coats and you are finished.. more means that it will check or craze, less means it will wiat for another coat..
Here's the really neat parts.. If you get a scratch get a rag damp with some alcohol and saying abra cadabra rub it over the scratch. ( the abra cadabra part is optional meant to impress wives children and other wood workers)
Scratch be gone!
Tough?
I have a 150 Newfoundland who hasn't learned to clip his own toenails for the past few years.. He hasn't made a mark in the floor I did with shellac this summer. I'm kinda disappointed, I want desperately to do my abra cadbra thingie ;-)
Got a drunk brother in law who spills his drink on your nice surface? if you act quickly chances are no damage done.. however if like most brothers-in-law he doesn't say anything and you catch it after the party is over, don't dispare.. Wipe it clean with that rag full of denatured alcohol and then brush on some more shellac.. wait, sand, brush on more,.... wait, sand ,brush on the third and last coat..
Here's the really fun part
Clean up.
Honest!
Take some denatured alcohol and semi rinse out the brush you used. I don't like to waste any so I always do it right over the can with the mix in it..
Don't be overly critical.. get what comes easy.. leave the rest..
Go over to your sink and run some warm water through the brush 'til you think it's resonably clean.. Perfection isn't important.. Now reach under the sink and grab the bottle of windex or whatever window cleaner you use.. What do you mean it's not there? Where did you leave it anyway? Who used it last? OK go out to the car and get it!
Now spray that brush full of windex. Wrap it up. Wash your hands. Flush the toilet, smile at the wife. hug the kids.. and strut around like you invented the cure for the common cold..
If like my piano the finish starts to look kinda poorly after only 70 years or so, take that same rag of denatured alcohol and rub off the shellac.. I spent a few hours doing that to my piano and then I slopped some more on..
It's dep rich and shiney without looking like it's plastic..
It's easy to repair and tougher than most finishes..
Plus the darn stuff is pretty benign..
When your wife takes her Midol she's eating shellac.. same when you take most pills. There's just enough denaturing in the alcohol so you can't drink it but other than that the alcohol is no worse than the beer you're having afterwards..
Since there's abizzilon year history with the stuff it's pretty well proven and to me every finish is definately second best..
Frenchy,
Did ya have to make the stuff sound so hard to use?
As a shellac lover and fan of the most laborious, time consuming and exacting finish ever invented, french polishing, I have to agree with all you've described about applying the stuff. You could use a broom and still do a good job.
Only thing I disagree with. Shellac actually hasn't been around for quite a bazillion years. Just a few hundred.
Rich
rich14,
Actually I think the chineese were using it thousands of years ago and a bazillion is at least a thousand metric years, or is it whitworth years? I forget..
Frenchy,I thought its use went back only a few hundred years. That's ok, my memory's a thing of the past.Rich
Rich14
It's amazing what the Chineese invented.. list is extremely long..
Frenchy,
I stand (partly) corrected. Here's a site that describes shellac's use by the Chinese 3000 years ago, But only as a dye and a glue.
http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/author/zinsser/shellac.shtm
"Not much is known regarding the very early history of shellac. In the Vedic period about 3,000 years ago it was called “Laksha.” One of the Vedic books contains an account of a whole palace constructed entirely out of lac resin.
Ancient Chinese and Indian civilizations used the dye extracted from lac for dyeing silk and leather and as a cosmetic rouge and a coloring for head ornaments. The superior adhesive quality of the resin made it useful for setting jewels and sword hilts as well as repairing broken pottery. The residue left after the extraction of the dye was made into a grinding wheel for jade – a technique still in use today"
"Ironically, it wasn’t until the mid-19th century that shellac was commonly used as a clear finish. Until that time it was processed mainly for the dye that was extracted from the lac after it was harvested. This rich, reddish-purple colorant was highly prized and much sought after by the textile trade in both Europe and America because it was an excellent substitute for Cochineal, a dye imported from Spanish colonies in Mexico"
The invention of aniline dye put shellac out of the dye game. Apparently a major economic upheaval in India at the time.
Rich
Edited 10/6/2006 4:34 pm ET by Rich14
"Zinsler is the brand most common.." Welllll, if you're Googling, try Zinsser for the best results. And....they make a great de-waxed shellac (SealCoat)
Go Frenchy!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
forestgirl,
Ya gotta love this place. You spend about a week writting a esay worthy of a collage term paper and sure enough somebody will correct a misspelled word ;-)
Because of shellac, I no longer patronize a local purveyor of finishes. Let me explain.
I made a plant stand out of QS white oak that followed a 1905 plan from a book. I went to the purveyor, and asked about shellac and deft. They gave me a very negative sell, and suggested some other (their brand) products. I bought a can of Zinser shellac, took it home, diluted it, washcoated the stand, then put a stain on it. Then I followed with several coats (pretty much following your described techniques), and when finished, the Boss was very happy with the results, as was I. Several years later, and I haven't had to do any damage repair, even though one of the plants seems to like to leave an occasional puddle of water.
For my next project, I was using alder, and planned to stain it. When I went to the store, I took a piece of stock with me to try a couple different stains. I was told that alder would blotch, and they suggested I buy their patented miracle stuff to prevent blotching. I said that I was just going to use a washcoat of shellac. Well, to avoid the death of civilization as we know it, I relented and bought their stuff, applied it as directed, and spent hours of rubbing to get rid of blotches that I'm sure that a shellac washcoat would have prevented or ameliorated. In reviewing my dealings with the store, I decided that they preferred to sell their house brand regardless of what might be best for the customer. (BTW, this wasn't a big box.)
Now, I have several pounds of various colors of shellac flakes spirited away, and enjoy 'making' my own, when appropriate. I haven't tried spraying shellac yet, but I know that when the right project comes along, I'll try it. It really is great stuff, and one of the few finishes that has a record going back centuries. Sort of like hide glue.
BobMc.
I've sprayed shellac and was pleased with the results.. however the results weren't much better than what I can slop on with a brush and I don't need to get all suited up and clean the gun afterwards. I've got both a HVLP gun and several Bink's and devilbus guns. While the cloud of overspray was slightly smaller with the HVLP gun it definately doesn't have the fine control that My Binks does..
Once someone told me the trick about using windex to keep a used paint brush clean I put away the spray equipment. Now guns are just too much like work to please me..
So, what is the trick of using Windex to keep brushes clean?
I just leave my shellac brush in a jar of DNA and when the DNA gets thick I use it to thin shellacs.John
Bonka,
The amonia in windex and other window cleaners keeps the shellac from drying.. What I do is when I know I'm going to be using shellac. I keep the orginal sleeve that the brush came in and mark it shellac..
How I do it is a quick rinse out of shellac back into the can with alchohol untill a lot of the shellac is out.. That way I only slightly delute the shellac and waste little in the way of alcohol. Next I rinse the brush out under warm water.. and shake it semi dry. I then squirt a lot of windex into the brush and wrap it up a week or two LATER i RINSE OUT THE WINDEX, SHAKE THE BRUSH DRY (caps lock) pour a little alcohol into the brush (which dry's out a lot of the water) and go at it.. I 've reduced my clean up time to a minute or less. wasted little shellac or even alcohol.
Okay, I've got to throw my 2 cents in here.
I don't know how you guys all got to be such nuts about shellac, but I expect it is because you haven't been able to get the incredible finish that I get from anything else you have tried.
The problem with shellac is that it is not moisture resistant. If you, or a guest, or your children, or anyone leaves a glass with cold liquid in it on shellac, the result is a disaster. So you have to spend all of your time running around with coasters and towels trying to protect your furniture.
I use Zinzer Sealer Coat shellac for sealer, with General Finishes Polyacrylic satin for a top coat and get excellent results. These are quick and easy to use and give excellent results every time. This is also easy to repair or patch, plus safe for the environment. Actually the manufacturer states that the General Finishes (GF) is safe for children's toys. The beauty of this finish combination is that the application is pretty fool proof, just apply as heavily as possible with a sponge brush, short of runs.
For the toughest great looking finish go to 2 heavy coats of Varathane Professional Polyurethane rather than the sealer and finish described above. You can buy it in spray cans that work well. This is bullet proof and looks like the dream, perfectly applied, oil finish, if you do it correctly. I don't recommend this as a finish though, unless it is really necessary, because it is toxic and bad for the environment. (I use it often though as it really is a great finish!)
I have even used Minwax quickdrying polyurethane with excellent results, although it seems to be even more toxic than Varathane with less solids in the mix. Plus if used inside of cabinets it stinks for a long time.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Hal J
I know how to spray, I've won awards for paint jobs I've done (granted it's on cars but the techniques sure apply)
The trouble with poly anything is it's softer than shellac, Yep softer!
Plus some of it is toxic as heck.. Shellac is used to coat pills for cripes sake..that means it's pretty benign..
The reason you need to spray is either,
you can't get a good finish with a brush (and a lot of the poly's are like that) or,
you need a reasonably smooth finish quickly.
Sure shellac isn't water proof.. So what it repairs so easily that it doesn't need to be.. the only way to have an invisable repair in Poly..... is to do the whole panel again.
I agree with you Frenchy,
Poly (AKA varnish, AKA oil because almost all off the shelf products labeled as such are a blend) is one of the worst finishes in most every respect. It yellows to a cloudy dingy tint, it is soft and easily damaged by many house hold chemicals (look at the KCMA ratings for finishes). High moisture areas cause it to peel and direct sun accelerates its aging to a brittle, cracking and flaking state. Which all varnishes will do eventually. Oil/ Varnishes never quit curing. Year by year they get harder and harder untill they can no longer take the movement of the wood and start cracking. It is NOT repairable. You can add more on top but the next coats only stick to the previous coats (and not very well at that if the finish is more than a year old) where as Lacquers and Shellac redissolve the previous coats and cure into one coat creating a real repair of the damaged area. When you look at a repair on a varnish finish you can still see the damaged surface underneath. Finally it is very slow do dry and you have to wait even longer before you can sand it. This results in more dust contamination.
The up sides of varnish finishes are that if they are oil heavy they tend to bring a certain depth to the grain which is nice on some woods. But the same effect makes most figured and blotchy prone woods look bad.
Shellac has a magical ability to be harder than oil/varnish but remain pliable enough to not crack under the most extreme of movement. And it will look the same in 100 years as it does today. However water and alchohol will easily damage it. So it is good for pieces like hall, or sofa tables and bookcases. I suspect that it would be great for entertainment centers but I have never tried it. I would say that there is no easier finish to repair. You dont even need to spray the repaired area. You can brush it on then sand it smooth and polish it out to match the surounding finish.
Lacquer is certaintly the easiest to use and get a nice finish, it does use some nasty chemicals, but I find that I use less lacquer thinner for spraying lacquer than I use mineral spirits with oil/varnish. Proper ventalation and resperators are very importaint with all spray processes. There are some new water based finishes that sound very good but are picky about the finishing process.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Sorry guys. You have not convinced me that shellac is better. I have used it. Maybe you have been using poor quality polyurethane, or have applied it too thickly. Done correctly, it is very flexible, unlike lacquer which is extremely brittle and also not very moisture resistant. I have not experienced the cloudyness you speak of either, even though I have furniture in my home that was built in the 1980's.
If the furniture is taken care of like it is a jewel, i.e. never used, it would be okay to use shellac. I personally don't like the sheen. But in my home I don't worry about water stains, I don't worry about using coasters except on my authentic Stickley furniture which, by the way, has a terrible finish.
I have brushed polyurethane and sprayed it, and some of my earliest furniture still has an incredible finish on it, despite incredible abuse by 4 teenagers without a care. I don't worry about water or chemical damage, and have wiped it up often after a glass in a puddle has spent a day or two in one spot.
I will admit that using oil based polyurethane is a toxic experience, and is bad for the environment. Lacquer is worse. It's the reason I try to use Zinzer's Bullseye SealCoat shellac with GF Polyacrylic over it whenever I can get away with it. I think it may be the best of both worlds. No spraying necessary, although I do sometimes spray it using a HVLP sprayer, but only to speed it up if I have a lot to finish.
Oh Mudman, varnish and polyurethane are not the same thing at all. Huge difference. I use both. Some call polyurethane "varnish", but if you see a genuine mahogany entry door or anything on a yacht that has been coated with polyurethane instead of marine varnish, you can tell the difference immediately. Polyurethane is not varnish.
Lastly, GF (General Finishes) Polyacrylic is easier to apply and repair than even shellac. And you don't need to refinish an entire panel.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Polyurethane varnish which in single part consumer versions is really a varnish with urethane resin modifying alkyd resin. Traditional resin varnishes alkyd varnish or phenolic varnish are all part of the same basic family--all varnishes. Varnish is defined by being a reactive finish that cures with a chemical polymerization that links the material together. It does not redissolve in the solvents (mineral spirits) used as thinners.
That's not to say there aren't differences among varnishes--nonetheless chocolate cake and yellow cake are all still cake.
But water borne finishes are quite a bit different--these are basically acrylic finishes with varying amounts of other resins such as polyurethane. They cure by first having the water evaporate so the little "droplets" of teh solvent based finish can come together (coalesce) and begin to cure with a chemical reaction. Waterborne finishes generally come up considerably short of solvent or heat protection compared to oil based varnishes, though ahead of the evaporative shellac or and a little ahead of lacquer.
Steve,
Yes, what you say is all true. But unfortunately I think by calling polyurethane a varnish just confuses people. It is like saying something is made of mahogany when in fact it is made of meranti.
For instance, when I hire someone to varnish my boat, I would be pretty upset if they used polyurethane and then used your explaination of why what they did was okay.
Using shellac as a verb also could mean that one football team "creamed" another. I don't want cream on my table. There are many variations of the usage of words, but I think that since we are talking about finishes, traditional varnish should be called varnish, polyurethane should be called polyurethane, etc.
Also, I don't see that manufacturers are calling their polyurethanes "varnish." Even in the world of marine finishes I find that they are called "finishes," but are never called "varnish." An example is Epiphanes Wood Finish Gloss. It is not varnish. Even Minwax and Varathane don't call their polyurethane "varnish."
And didn't this all start with some guy wanting to know what was a good and easy product to spray?
I do woodworking as a professional and could never get away with using shellac as a finish without a disclaimer, and I do a lot of traditional pieces as well as contempory. I have never had a piece come back for repair or refinish since I began using polyurethanes. They are indeed soft, but that is a good thing. If a piece is dented, the finish stretches and sticks, rather than breaking.
Thanks for the conversation, though.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
The problem is that Epifanes sure does call their varnish varnish, check out http://www.epifanes.com. So does Sherwin-Williams. The Minwax web site appears to be down at the moment, but I wouldn't call Minwax a really good example.
The problem I see with calling polyurethane varnish just poly or polyurethane is that people do seem to think that it is a truly different product that is dramatically superior to traditional resin varnishes. It's just a bit more abrasion resistent, more difficult to get to adhere to surfaces, and a bit cloudy so that coatings sufficient to provide lots of protection get that "plastic" look. For residential furniture that isn't walked on traditional resin varnish will be virtually as durable as polyurethane varnish, but look better. The big gap in durability comes between oil based varnish (including polyuethane varnish) and evaporative finishes such as shellac or lacquer.
Hi Steve,
You are right! Epiphanes does call their varnish varnish. But they don't call their polyurethane finish "varnish." They call it Wood Finish." They have both products. I didn't check the internet, but maybe the varnish that Sherwin Williams is calling varnish is actually varnish too.
Your statement about calling polyurethane plain poly or polyurethane...backs up everything I was telling you about the differences and problems of lumping them together under the heading "varnish." They are different and each has its place in the wood shop. I have never had an adhesion problem.
The build-up that you refer to in order to get a protective finish is not as thick as you think it is, which is why many amateurs get that cloudy look that you refer to. I only apply 2 coats, never enough to get that plastic coated look. You should try it. The satin gives a beautiful finish. How much shellac do you need to apply to get the protection of 2 coats of polyurethane? I don't think you can ever get there.
You should also know that you can't learn everything from the internet. I have used these products for years, and still use all of them, according to the situation at hand. I seldom use lacquer though. I don't believe the results are worth the trouble.
As far as definitions go, one source states that varnish actually is defined as "A solution of a resin in oil or spirits, applied to a surface to give it a protective gloss."
Polyurethane is defined as "Synthetic plastic: A thermoplastic polymer that contains an NHCOO chemical group."
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
I looked at your website and you are clearly a competint craftsman but you are very misinformed about finishing options. Polyurathane IS Varnish. Varnish is a modified oil that is linked or binded with a resin. Technicaly Varnish uses natural resins and Poly uses man made resins. Now days because the manmade resins are more consistant and lend them selfs to manufacturing most all Varnish uses polyurethane resins. Also the Poly additives (if you will) are easier to chemically customise for various properties (hardness, flexibility, speed of curing, water resistance). With the natural resins it is a lot harder to isolate these qualities. It is actually difficult to buy a traditional varnish because the manufacturers don't tell you what is in them. Some of the high end suppliers do clairify the ingredients. One pretty consistant difference between Polyurethane and Varnish is that most (not all) of the time varnish has more pure oil added to the mix so it brushes nicer. But most poly varnishes do have some oil in them for the same reason. Have you ever noticed that most every can of "Poly" say "Polyurethane Varnish"?
Oil/Varnishes (this includes Poly) all yellow with age. All oil based finishes I know of do this. Including oil based paint. It dosen't cloud but it yellows the finish and on light toned stains or natural wood it gives a sickly jaundice look.
Lacquers cover a broad range of different finishes that are so different that they cant be classified togather. Most profesional shops use catalysed lacquers that are not brittle, dont yellow nearly as much, don't lift peel or unbond, and go on a lot nicer.
Also, I certaintly dont think Shellac is any better. I think that it is in the same category of less durable easier to apply (no spray equipment needed) finishes. I enjoy applying Shellac because it is ...... well it is cleaner, cures faster, and has a nice natural sheen that brings out the luster in most wood.
If you doubt what I say search Google with "difference between polyurethane and varnish". What is funny is on the DIY sites I found people talking about Poly like it is different, but any reputable source explains it better than I can.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Natural resin varnishes have virtually disappeared, except for uses in fine arts and violin making. These would include Dammar (spelled variously), Copal, and Amber. But there are lots of varnishes that don't contain polyurethane resin but do contain man-made resins (plastics) such phenolic, and probably the most common alkyd. (Alkyd is also a large part of the single part consumer grade polyurethane varnish.) I prefer to call these "traditional" resin varnishes to distinquish them from varnishes containing polyurethane resin. The distinquishing characteristic of varnish is the chemical reaction process that creates varnish from oil and resin, not whether that resin is one plastic or another or whether varnish has been mixed with oil.
The relative proportion of oil to resin ingredients varies both within traditional resin varnish (spar varnish on the long end and rubbing varnish on the shorter end) and within polyurethane varnishes.
Varnish is not likely to have pure oil added to the varnish by the manufacturer--ie. be an oil/varnish mix. The oil ingredient has become a part of the varnish, and is no longer a separate commodity. Calling something varnish is not an indicator that additional oil was mixed in with the varnish. Solvents (along with small amounts of other additives such as driers and anti-skin agents, etc.) are generally mixed with the varnish to make the consistency more useful.
By the way, shellac--which is about the only really natural resin used in furniture finishing today, doesn't change color over time nearly in the same way as the oil based varnishes. It scratches more easily, and doesn't resist certain chemicals as much as varnish, but otherwise probably has a longer useful life.
There's just enough denaturing in the alcohol so you can't drink it but other than that the alcohol is no worse than the beer you're having afterwards.
That may be true of the ethanol in DNA, but the methanol that makes it "denatured" is highly toxic. People have become very sick from methanol fumes from using DNA in confined spaces (ironically, the treatment includes drinking ethanol). So be careful with those alcohol fumes.
BarryO
Apparently there are several ways of denaturing alcohol. I believe the only requirement is that it is no longer drinkable. I have seen all sorts of fairly nasty and some not so nasty stuff used to denature it.. I've notice that the ingrediants of one brand is differant than another brand, but to be fair one gallon I had was at least a decade and a half old while the other brand was purchased last week from Home Depot..
Frankly I don't care, I have used it for a while now and have never had any reaction to it. Others might be more sensative or work in a more confined space. I suspect all of those affect a persons reactions to it..
I do know that to spray catalized laquer I need to suit up into a space suit and get my fresh air system on and running. While if I brush on shellac I simply open a nearby window and slop away..
I was about to put it into a pressure pot and using my HVLP gun spray the ceilings because I lost too much shellac to drippage trying to brush the ceilings, the result of really thin shellac/alcohol mix. (They are various woods such as black walnut, eastern white pine, Hard maple, or cherry)
I found a crack in my pressure pot fitting that while not in a critical area still benefitted from a glob of JB Weld. Thus I need to let it dry 24 hours before I pressure it again. So no test today of the effects of spraying a large area with shellac and nothing more than a respirator.
test today of the effects of spraying a large area with shellac and nothing more than a respirator.
It's the years of doing it--and down the road that the memory test will come. Not tommorrow when your patch has dried.Gretchen
gretchen,
well I'm hopeless then! ;-)
I sprayed a two part paint a couple of decades ago that had some really nasty effects on me.. Since then I've had to be much much more carefull.. I mean some fumes really trigger a reaction with me. I'm 58 now and according to what I learned as a result of the incident I should be wearing a oxygen tank strapped to my wheelchair at least 8 years ago..
I'm absolutely certain that spraying is far harder on my system than brushing.. Even with a properly adjusted HVLP spray gun there is much more mist/fumes in the air than when I brush.
Sheese, some of you guys sure are touchy..... forgive me if I was being vague in my original post and forgive me if I came across as dense. I did find some good information and a very helpful chart in the April 2003 issue of FW (No.162) "Aerosol Finishes that Really Work". Wish someone had mentioned it earlier (unless I skipped over it and if I did, PLEASE FORGIVE ME!!), would have saved everyone a lot of time! Great here it comes again...."if you don't have time to do it right the first time, how will you find the time to do it over again?"
Frenchy is right about shellac.
It's not quite as easy as he claims, but if you learn to rub it out properly, it can give you a really superb finish.
You can also buy regular lacquer in spray cans; it is repairable (like shellac), but stands up better to water and alcohol. Deft makes a brushing lacquer -- called "Clear Wood finish" -- which is pretty widely available. For the best appearance, you will still want to rub it out.
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
nikkiwood,
Pssst, you weren't supposed to mention the rub out thingie,,
rubbing stuff out is only for the pro's or wanna-be-pros.
If you look at most sprayed finishes you'll see orange peel unless they are smart enough to rub things out.
and when you do get around to getting a spray rig you will still be using shellac like Zinsser Bulls Eye seal coat because it is such a great undercoat/barrier coat/preventer of fish eyes and other gremlins associated with spraying/ colour enhancer on some woods like Iroko- ah the list goes on ....
There is no "best" spray finish. Shellac is a favorite of mine too, but I seldom use it now. Most of the pieces I make are used too heavily for a Shellac finish. Shellac is pretty durable, and VERY easy to repair, it also sprays easily and cleanly. It dosent sand as easy as lacquer but is close. Lacquer is very easy to spray as well. The simplest versions are the "no mix ready to spray" varieties like Sherman Williams Hi Bild lacquer. It cleans up easly (with lacquer thinner), it is very sandable and dries in minutes. It is a little more durable than Shellac, mainly in stain and alcholol resistance. It is also easily repaired, or touched up. You have to learn to mix thinner and retarders but that is easy and some products are truly ready to spray (though I've never seen one). Pre catalyzed lacquer is a little more work to spray, you should use a recomended sealer coat and it is a little harder to clean if you wait too long but it is very durable and very resistant to every evil. It is by far the most popular for custom cabinetry because of its ease of use and durability. It can not be touched up like the others because succeeding coats do not disolve the previous coats. This makes repairs visible. It also dosent sand so well. Oil, varnish and mixes of the two are very poor for spraying. They dry too slow and are a pain to clean up. The over spray is prevasive and sticky, whearas the other finishes tend to dry in the air and fall as a dust. Oil/Varnish also dries very slow and you generally have to wait 24 hours between coats, though there are some Polys that dry in a few hours. It is also not easy to sand.
Basicly, I think that any finish can be as difficult or easy as you make it. The higher your standards are for the finished product the more work you will have to put into it.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
mudman,
you really hit the nail on the head there mudman,,
The higher your standards, the more work involved. Applies to just about anything in life.
I used to use a lot of laquer, you're right it does all that you say, however!
It is far harder on you than shellac. I used a precatilized laquer early on and liked it's results untill I sprayed it with with a poor respirator and got enough in my lungs to damage them.
For years I couldn't spray anymore, eventually time did it's thing and I was no longer hypersensitive and the new suits and equipment allow me to once again spray. I've lost my love for it.. it takes too long compared to brush on finishes, the work afterwards is the same and the results are the same.. So I can suit up, don the respirator, adjust the gun, clean the gun, remove the suit and respirator and tear down the temporay booth I made to contain the overspray.
Or grab the brush..
Remember untill the 1940's all Rolls Royces were brush painted..
For high volume and easy clean up I have found the best so for to be OXFORD ULTIMA SPRAY LACQUER http://www.targetcoatings.com/oxford-spray-lacquer.html . For small project the minwax canned spays are really good. The Polucrylic is easier to clean up but if your want more durability use the spay poly.
There are specially formulated finishes for spraying on wood. Do NOT try spraying 'painting' varnishes on wood. Two common sprayable finishes that I know of are nitrocellulose laquers and acid catalysed lacquers. They are sold under various brand names and an industrial or auto paint supplier should be able to help you out. Acid catalysed lacquers are more durable and sand very easily. They have the disadvantage that you have to discard unused paint once it's been catalysed. The off-spray is also tough on the chest. Both nitrocellulose and acid catalysed paints are available in matt, satin, and gloss finishes. If you want a gloss from the gun, I'd recommend acid catalysed paint. For small jobs with a matt or satin finish requiring little chemical or moisture durability, I'd recommend nitrocelluse. Regardless of what the paint supplier says, I'll always begin by spraying on 2 coats of nitrocellulose sanding sealer (most sanding sealers are nitrocellulose based) thinned 1:1 with lacquer thinners. This 'lifts' the grain and can be sanded easily to a smooth finish. After sanding, it should be ready for final coating with a nitrocellulose or acid catalysed finish. For the hobbyist, I'd recommend a conventional gravity feed gun with a nozzle size of 1.4 mm. HVLP guns have huge air-flow requirements that can only be met with a large (5HP plus) compressor. I've seen HVLP gun + turbine sets that claim to give you the required air-flow but I've got no experience with this. For controllabilty, rather keep the gun far from the surface (8 - 10") and move it slowly instead of close to the surface and moving rapidly. Never spray in direct sunlight otherwise your off-spray has less chance of blending in. This causes a rough surface (but it can be polished out). If you do have problems with off-spray, speak to your paint supplier about retarding thinners. Traditionalists tend to curse sprayed finishes. However, when you look at the rough finishing on the insides of even highly praised antique furniture, my guess is that the Craftsmen of old would have been quite happy to spray their finish on if it saved them some time.
zwake1s,
Can we agree that the main work of any really fine finish isn't the application of the finish but all the sanding, polishing, buffing required to produce a really great finish?
If we are in agreement on that point then the only two points of contention left are ease of application and speed of application..
Please humor me since the tone of the original post was about a newbie starting out.
I'm going to assume he doesn't have a dedicated spray booth nor the required guns, respirators, suits, etc..
I make my own spray booths out of plastic sheeting I staple in place so I would say entry level spray booth is under $20.00 {less if he already has a fan or can buy one cheap at a swap meet or garage sale}..
but a decent HVLP gun is going to set him back a bit, add a decent compressor, hose, water seperator, regulator, suit, respirator etc.. will probably not leave much change from a thousand dollar bill. I fully accept the careful shopping of garage sales, etc. can reduce that dramatically but let's say the entry point is a Thousand dollars. Now if you use shellac and a brush there are really great paint brushes available in the $20.00 range Thus from pure economic stand point spraying is decidedly costly.
Now to address ease of application..
I don't know about you but I didn't do great work with a spray gun the day I bought it.. I needed lots of experiance before I figured out just what steps were needed to do a really great spray job.. I read everything I could find about technique, and even spent time with propainters trying my level best to figure out what I was doing wrong. ( You should have seen my first metalflake paint job)
Anyway!
I think you need to agree with me that there is a learning curve with spraying that there isn't with brushed on Shellac..
thus ease of application must go to the brushed on shellac..
finally speed of application..
While it is possible to rapidly cover a large surface area faster with a gun than a brush, that isn't all there is to it..
Again I'm assuming that there isn't a dedicated spray area.. (remember, a newbie) so one must be constructed or the shop cleared out etc.. guns hauled out, filters, hoses, respirator etc.. etc..
Or you haul out a brush, a can of shellac, & few cans of denatured alcohol.
I've never cleaned up in less than 15 minutes especially when I'm mixing two part paints. Somehow I use the better part of a gallon of lacquer thinner and none of that can be "saved" you either pay to have it hauled away or you pollute..
My brush clean up is always under three minutes. with the brush stored away in it's sleeve ready for me next time be it next week or next year.. most of the alcohol used is back in the can with the shellac and other than a few squirts of windex glass cleaner I consumed nothing..
Three minutes to 15 pretty obvious which is faster isn't it?
Just in case you believe that brushing must be painstakingly slow. I just finished putting the third coat of shellac on my black walnut flooring. 480 sq ft. it took me less than 20 minutes and looks great, no runs, no drips, no brush marks..
Try to do it that fast with a spray gun!
I plan on giving the beams/ timbers in my house a three coat layer of shellac.. counting scaffold setting up time, ladder time, (28 foot ceilings) well over 20,000 bd.ft of timbers done to an extremely high standard and I fully expect to finish all of that in 40 hours.. If I had to tape all of that the tapping time alone would take 40 hours!
ease of application is hands down shellac with a brush. As for speed, while the slightly faster coverage speed with a spray gun is more than offset by the time required to get it out and clean it up afterwards..
Frenchy,
I have no doubt you are as good and fast with a brush as you describe. My father hated paint rollers. He could paint a wall better and faster with a brush than another man could using a roller. To each his own.
I have learned to use a spray gun, and having gotten good with it, I will never go back to brushing, and I have advised lots of people that they will experience the same, once they try.
Expensive spray equipment is not necessary, although well-made equipment is always nice to have. I have a cheapo, small HVLP, gravity-feed gun ($60) that I bought at Home Depot and a small Craftsman compressor.
Filling the cup takes a few seconds. The surface of the sprayed finish layer is free of brush marks, laps, drips, runs, etc. No brushing technique could ever equal it. I can put down more finish, faster than brushing could ever do, though speed is not my goal.
The learning curve is not steep. Learning to lay down a good spray pattern is not hard. Just get yourself positioned relative to the light so you can see the spray hitting the surface at all times. Just wet the entire area and no more. Move the gun slowly but continuously. Setting up a suitable spraying environment is not a big deal. Overspray is not a problem (although it was with an ordinary gun.)
(Now learning to brush well - that's hard. Especially with shellac. I could never learn to avoid lap marks. It just dries too quickly. At least for me.)
Clean up couldn't be more simple or direct. Pour out the finish. Drip a little solvent into the cup. Spray until gone (a few seconds). Repeat a few times. The direct path of the gravity-feed system cleans completely without any special attention. Unscrew the nozzle and wipe it with a little solvent. Done. Maybe 2-3 minutes. Like new, ready for the next use.
Rich
Rich14
Lap marks with shellac? Brush marks?
Hmmm, you're doing two things wrong..
first it's way too thick!
dump a lot more alcohol into it.. I usually use two gallons of alcohol to one gallon of Zinsser's 2 #cut. Then I wash my brush out with more alcohol for the second coat which thins it even further and the third coat gets further reduced.
Second, you're being too carefull. Get a big ol' house painter brush and pretend you've entered the Indy 500 of painting..
I wish you were here so I can show you. So what if you're sloppy! If it's thin enough it can't run, well it runs but it doesn't leave run marks. and as soon as the brush hits the runs all mistakes disappear..
As for costs, yes, you can buy cheapo spray guns and small compressors, as I said.. but no spray system will ever be as cheap as a brush..
There is a learning curve with spraying.. as I clearly said I've been spraying for decades.. ( I bought my first spray gun in 1964) and actually won awards for paint jobs. I didn't do a decent spray job untill I spent enough time with pro's to learn some of the really critical things that books never seem to discuss well.
On a lark I brush painted a car, entered it in a car show and won an award for best paint job. There is nothing about painting that requires a spray gun, Heck Rolls Royce's were brush painted untill just before WW2
Finally overspray is a problem even with HVLP guns.. if it weren't bring your stuff into the dinning room ands lay down some newspaper and have at it.. I can do that with brushed shellac.
Now if you are going to use some of the two part paints, or have a dedicated area, there is nothing at all wrong with spray painting.. I still have all of my spray equipment. It's just there are some things where if you go back to the basics and really learn how to do something, the older ways are actaully better..
Frenchy,
As I said, to each his own.
I spray every finish I use. Water borne poly, lacquer, shellac. And I use much more of those first 2, combined, than shellac, nowadays.
I can't brush water borne poly or lacquer. But my spray technique is the same no matter what finish. So I just spray shellac when I use it.
I'll bet we would simply wind up in a tie, start to "finish" using our individual application and clean-up methods.
Rich
Hi Rich14
I'm not here to change anybody's mind if they believe that what they do works for them. The original post asked for advice concerning spray finishes and that's what I gave. Perhaps you should open up a new topic "spray vs painted finishes" if you wish to share your wisdom with others.
Varnish does not work by evaporation of the solvents. (Shellac and lacquer are evaporative finishes--not varnish.) Varnish cures by a chemical reaction--with oxygen from the air that polymerizes the varnish into a cross linked solid. This process is substantially similar to what happens with single part consumer grade polyurethane varnish.
The chemical story does change when you shift to two-part polyurethane finishes. The resin may by 100% polyurethane, the solvents are often quite a bit stronger that the mineral spirits in one part varnish, and the chemical reaction is kicked off when the two parts are combined. Be prepared to pay $50 + per quart. I have used marine grade two-part poly paint. It's great stuff, though a pita to use without spraying, though there are some varieties formulated for that application. Spraying is a bit of a problem, since I would need to put a 30' sail boat in a suitable spray booth.
Wow, none of that sounds like it is very good for the environment!
Two part polyurethane paint is incredibly toxic. I would never use it, no matter what.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Two part poly is very toxic but can be safely used with the proper equipment and precautions, it may not be the cats meow for furniture but it is unsurpassed as a marine paint and as an aircraft finish.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Here are some other interseting points, Varnish is not the produst of evaporation of a solvent it is a powerfull chemical reaction that begins when oxygen reacts with it. The curing process never ends. It gets harder and harder. Marine Varnish is just another varnish like Polyurethane Varnish is. Although Marine Spar Varnish is certaintly more different from traditional varnish than Poly.
Your description of Polyurethane is somewhat accurate if you are talking about Gorilla glue, PL Polyurethane caulk or some other polyurethane product. But if you are talking about wood finishes the "poly" that makes Varnish a Polyurethane Varnish is a resin additive that brings the solids togather, no different than the natural organic resins.
The Poly acrylic finish that you are refering to from General Finishes is NOT a Polyurethane finish in the usual sense. It is a water based acrylic finish with a Polyurethane additive. It would not be sold on the shelf next to Minwax Polyurethane finish, or any other Polyurethane Varnish.
However it explains why you find that there are such tremendous differences between Varnish and your Acrylic finish. It is literally the same difference between Oil based paint and an acrylic latex paint. So you are absolutely correct the product you are using is not a Varnish, nor is it a Polyurethane Varnish and it has nothing in common with any other Polyurethane finish.
Acrylics do not continue to cure, they do not yellow, and they spray a lot better than varnish. However they are not as clear, or flexable as other options. the Poly additives are there to help it be a little more flexable.
When it comes to durability if you want the real story look to see if the product has been tested and aproved by the KCMA or AWI. There will be a chart breaking down the exact resistance to various common faults including yellowing, heat, abrasion, alcohol, solvents, staining and others by the amount of time or degree of aplication.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
THe book Understanding Wood Finishing by Bob Flexner is one of the two best books on finishing. He spent years researching the chemistry and properties of various finishes before writing the 300 page reference book.
On page 133 he writes:
"Some of the confusion surounding film finishes exists because of an imprecision in the names used for the finishes......................"
"Water base is often called lacquer or varnish for marketing reasons. It makes an entirely new finish seem familiar. Water base is also called polyurethane for the same reasons when some polyurethane resin is blended with the usual acrylic resin."
On this page he also describes the confusion between poly and varnish (they are too simular to diferentiate and generally have the same ingredients) and even that varnish and lacquer and varnish are frequently interchanged. That would explain why you think lacquer is brittle, it might have been a varnish (or poly) that ws marketed and a lacquer. Usually the very fast drying polyurethane varnishes are marketed as lacquers. He also explains that water base finishes are coalescing finishes and varnish (including poly) is a reactive finish. They behave very different.
I was lost in the world of finishing untill I read this book. Taunton also has a pretty good book, but it focuses more on the aplication than the chemistry. This book very accurately and technically breaks down all the common (and some uncommon) finishes detailing their pros and cons and why you would choose one over the other. It also clears up a lot of myths.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
No actually it was real lacquer that I was talking about.
And not all oil based paints and finishes yellow.
But this is the same problem with all of the generalities that are being spewed forth about this whole varnish vs. polyurethane lingo debate. Could it be possible that you are using, or are familiar with, or are referring to only the products that fit your argument? Did you actually look on every can of polyurethane finish and see that it said varnish? When I say varnish, I mean real varnish. When you say varnish, you include all sorts of products that aren't either shellac or lacquer, according to your post. In my mind, it seems a lot less confusing to separate the two, since even you have expounded on the differences, and then talked about the confusion. I don't include penetrating oil finishes in my description of varnish either, even if they contain varnish.
Think of it like the word irregardless. It is in the dictionary, and many people say it all the time, but in reality it is a word that is misused in place of the word regardless. Doesn't make it right just because people misspeak.
Oh, I checked, and none of the cans of polyurethane finish that I use say varnish anywhere on the label. Only the real varnish does. The polyurethane finish says finish. I say that if some manufacturer says their polyurethane finish is varnish, it doesn't make it right, and they are probably only doing it to sell their product to the unsuspecting public. Maybe I'm just using the wrong products.
I thank you for including that statement that you referred to in Bob Flexner's book, which backs up what I have been saying about the confusion with calling everything varnish.
I agree that waterbased polyurethane finishes (at least the ones I have used) are totally different than oil based. But some of them do a terrific job and are much less taxing on the environment and one's personal health.
Now you can fight amongst yourselves about whether or not all oil paints and finishes always yellow.
Hal
Edited 10/16/2006 2:25 pm ET by Hal J
I can't really understand the persistence with separating oilbased polyurethane varnish from traditional resin varnish. They apply in exactly the same way, have practically all the same properties, and use essentially the same chemistry.
Calling waterborne finishes just polyurethane finish just compounds the error and makes people think they are quite similar to oil based polyurethane varnish. I can understand why makers of waterborne finishes don't call them varnish--because it quite different--it applies differently, is based on a dramatically different chemistry, and has different properties. But, that doesn't mean it should be called polyurethane. It should be called acrylic finish.
Its just that poly varnish is in so many ways an inferior variety of varnish for furniture applications, despite its superiority as a floor finish. For slightly different reasons marine spar varnish is also an inferior product for furniture despite its superiority for finishing yacht brightwork.
Marketing departments have pretty much succeeded in convincing the minds of the uninformed that polyurethane is both different and superior and consequently the word varnish is left off the labels as the makers seek to keep the consumers in the dark.
By the way, is "real'' lacquer nitrocellulose lacquer, the 20th century innovation, or is it the orginal Oriental lacquer which derives from the Rhus verniciflua a member of the poison sumac family.
Edited 10/16/2006 2:58 pm ET by SteveSchoene
Steve,
I don't recall ever saying that GF Polyacrylic finish was a polyurethane. I could have though. It does contain water, acrylic resin, Glycol Ethers, Propylene Glycol, and urethane. So what would you call it?
I thought that all I did was suggest its use as being a good alternative to the guy that was looking for an easy to apply, over the counter finish. I think that Fine Woodworking rated it as easiest to apply of all the acrylic finishes a couple of years ago. My suggestion was that it is better for the environment, and works well. I have used gallons of it and agree.
If I remember correctly, everyone was touting shellac as being the perfect finish and I disputed it. Still do.
Hal
Hal,
No one said shellac is the perfect finish. No one has ever said any finish is the perfect finish.
You extrapolated the fondness and enthusiasm some expressed for shellac to an unjustified degree.
Rich
Rich14 -
Okay, I may have been influenced a bit by the zealous nature of the shellac fans. Or was it the whole shellac team?
It is fun to use, I must admit. And it smells pretty good too.
Hal
I would like to know what you think a polyurethane finish is (the ones that are not varnish).
So far you have used a water based acrylic as an example of a great polyurethane finish. It is not a polyurethane finish, it is an acrylic finish with a little poly added to keep it from being as brittle.
So please give me some examples of what a Polyurethane finish is. I am not of aware of any true polyerethane finish used in woodworking. It makes a very poor finish by itself. It makes a great additive to other finishes.
I can't help but use the established nomenclature for finishes. I would like to think I use the correct terms. Manufacturers tend to not use the correct names so they can sell new finishes based on the purchasers experience with more common products.
So would really like to know what you are refering to as Polyurethane.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
It seems that there are a couple of you that are just arguing for the sake of arguing. I think there is a "Cafe" chat room that is better suited for it.
I am looking at a spray can of Varathane Professional Polyurethane. You may say it is not polyurethane; you may say it is varnish. I don't care if you call it a cow. You are being silly!
Oh wait, here is another brand: Minwax Fast-Drying Polyurethane. Hmmm. I guess that isn't polyurethane either. What was I thinking?
Next time I see a Ford, I'm calling it a Delco.
Hal
By the way, Flecto sold polyurethane as a finish back in the 1960's, maybe earlier, but that is when I used it. It was probably what you think of when you say that polyurethane is an inferior finish. It looked like plastic, got cloudy, continued to harden, never quit stinking, etc.
Things have changed in the polyurethane finish department.
If one particular finish was superior to all the others, there would only be one finish available and we'd all be using it. Some are easier to apply for amateurs. Some are easier to use in industry. Some are toxic. Some are not so toxic. Some are more resistant to abrasion and chemicals, some are not so resistant. Some....well, I think you get the point.
I use many different finishes for different applications. Each has its place. If all I built was antique reproductions, I would never use polyurethane finishes.
What you use may be the best finish for the products you build. Maybe not. But you probably think they are based on your own research and personal experience. We all like to think that when we buy something, we bought the best. There are a lot of products available for a lot of different applications. Use what you like. Mine work very well for me.
Have fun!
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Here are some facts.
Varnish is made by cooking a curing or semi-curing oil with a resin. The 3 main types of resin used in varnish are 1. Alkyd 2. Phenolic 3. Polyurethane.
General pros and cons of varnish. Pros- Good resistance to water, heat, solvents and abrasion. Cons-Long curing time, Difficult to repair, Difficult to rub to an even sheen.
Specific pros and cons of Polyurethane Varnish. Pros- Extreme abrasion resistance. Cons- Poor adhesion to other finishes and to itself (always sand previous coats to form a mechanical bond), Poor UV resistance, Poor clarity.
Pros and cons of Shellac. Pros- Bonds to almost anything, Good barrier to silicone, stains, and odors, Low odor and toxicity, Excellent clarity and depth, Easy to rub out, Easy to repair. Cons- Weak resistance to heat, water, solvents, Moderate abrasion resistance.
Here are my opinions.
I prefer to use shellac as the only finish on anything that will not be walked on, or regularly have drinks spilled on it. Things that will get walked on or have drinks spilled on them get shellac followed by McCloskey Heirloom (alkyd resin varnish), or Waterlox (phenolic resin varnish). I just don't see the point in putting up with the numerous faults inherent in Poly for a slight increase in abrasion resistance over other, superior, varnishes.
Rob
Edited 11/7/2006 9:29 pm ET by Rob A.
Edited 11/8/2006 8:43 am ET by Rob A.
Hey mudman, I really liked the new Bob Flexner book too. So much in fact that once I return this copy to the Library, I plan to purchase my own copy.
That said, what is the title of the Taunton book that mostly addresses application?
Mike,
I have the same book, but couldn't find the text you cited as being on page 133. Perhaps you've a different version? Mine is the 2005 issue...
Marty
Mine say copyright 1994, published 1999. The text is on the 3rd page in Chapter 7. There is a large shaded box that says "Whats in a name". But really this passage is not the best factual support of my contention. If you read the whole book he explains continously the relationship between various products and the discrepancies of their marketed names. He also describes coalesing, reactive and evaporative finishes.
Really this thread highlights the misinformation out there. Hal J is clearly an amazing carpinter (look at his site) and I am sure that he has been finishing longer than me. Yet by his own posted (and correct) definition Polyureathane is a plastic, a real plastic. Not something one would put on wood. I am not aware of any true polyurethane finish marketed for the woodworking industry. It would be very unatractive, though very durable. His posted definition of varnish is also right on, and the "Polyurethane" that is sold as a wood finish fits that definition perfectly. I looked up the finishes Hal mentioned from General Finishes and they never describe their "polyureathane" products as Varnish. Same as Minwax. That is unfortunate because they are obviously not real polyureathane (again that is the stuff that comes in caulk tubes) it is a varnish. I am shure that these are very good products as well, but these naming practices promote the confusion. Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
I am the original poster for this discussion. I was very impressed with all the entries and have learned a lot about pros and cons for different finishes but in some ways am more confused. It is surprising how many folks don't read the original post/question but rather just respond to the last guy! Some 3 pages of responses and not one of you answered my question! Anyway I think the best response out of all you guys was response #51 by Rob on Nov 7. Thanks Rob for succinctly clarifying the differences between the finishes without a lot of unnecessary verbiage. My original question was what is the best OVER THE COUNTER spray finish (for smaller projects and touch-ups)! i.e.-What is best spray tip, what about those little bottles with the disposable compressed air, is there any professional cans of stuff I should be ordering somewhere else, what is best way to touch-up after in-house scratch and dent repair, etc....???? I do a fair amount of repair work, mostly on stuff under 70 yrs old. When something is really old I try and match the finish which is usually shellac, I am a fan of shellac but it is simply not the finish to use on heavy use modern pieces. Nor is it the best touch-up finish for production furniture of the last 100 yrs. So in the meantime I'm using Deft brand lacquer with one of those snap on handles for touch up spraying. I can spray several coats in half a day and easily rub it out if necessary. Maybe I should have gone over to the Mohawk forum....
I must be dense today or something because I read many good answers to your original question. Shellac is an OVER THE COUNTER finish that is available in spray cans. So is varnish and polyurethane which has also been recommended to you. What kind of counter are you shopping at that doesn't have those products? Perhaps you didn't word your question properly?As to your other questions, they weren't in the original post so maybe you can cut everyone some slack?
What is it about OVER THE COUNTER finishes that didn't meet your demands? Every finish mentioned in the thread is for an OVER THE COUNTER type. Are there other types? Did you think the recommendations were for prescription medication finishes?
You seem to have lots of experience. Why don't you try all "those little bottles with the disposable compressed air." and let us know.
Or maybe you need to invest in real spray equipment, since you do a "fair amount of repair work," and since you asked whether "there (are) any professional cans of stuff I should be ordering somewhere else." Cans of stuff? Somewhere else? Other than Home Depot?
Ordering? Wouldn't that then be other than OVER THE COUNTER?
Or maybe your needs are OVER THE TOP.
Rich
Thank you for the complemint. I think the our bickering and filibustering illustrates that there is no "best otc finish". It depends on what you are finishing and how much work you want to put into the non-spraying steps.
For general high use cabinetry, like kitchen and bathroom cabinets, Catalysed Lacquer is by far the most common in the Pro custom shop. There are various versions but PreCat is more popular because it is easiest to use. I have started using Conversion Varnish because it is clearer and more durable, but it is a little more complicated and is very difficult to level with sandpaper. But cabinetry is seldom worked on after the last top coat. All of these finishes are very durable and dry very fast. A large job can be sealed, and get two coats in one day. They are all easy to use though some are a little pickier about recoat time windows and temp/humidity levels.
For custom furniture combinations of pure oil and varnish are most popular, especialy with amature craftsmen. It gives most woods a rich dark colour that highlites the grain and tone of many species. However it is difficult to apply due to slow dry times and is never sprayed by any noted crfatsman I know of. The problem is that by the time you thin is enough to spray the dry times increase to 12 or 24 hours. During this time all the dust that falls onto the surface will stick requireing you to sand (level) the surface. But the finish remains too sticky to sand for longer than the dry to touch time. Also oils and Varnish tend to make some woods blotch a lot, which actually hides figure and grain structure. FWW demonstrated this about 5 months ago. A big advantage of Oil/Varnish is that it cures to a very durable finish. Shellac is very nice to spray. You can use any equipment and get good results. It dries fast and uses safer chemicals instead of the toxic thinners common to others. It sands very nicely allowing you to easily create the perfect surface sheen without adding flattening agents that cloud the grain. If you want a high gloss you can polish with rotten stone or for a pleasing hand rubbed look 000 steel wool looks great. Shellac gives woods a light natural glow. Revealing the grain and figure without changing it. It is durable to wear, but susceptable to alcohol and water damage making it a poor choice for table tops. A good way for you to see what finishes are used is to look at the gallery pages in FWW. They generally describe their finishing process. I think you will be suprised at how evenly the various finishes are represented.
there are many other finishes that are less common or are only used in special aplications. Pure wax, water base, epoxies, vinyl, and industrial finishes requireing ovens and automated finishing systems.
My advise is that you should try simple lacquer, Shellac, and a water based acrylic finish (sometimes marketed as water based varnish or Polyurethane). Sherman williams sells a lacquer product called HiBild it is cheap and easy to use. And the Bulls eye Shellac is hard to beat. These simple Lacquers are not a good representation of what lacquer can do but it is cheap and easy. A gallon costs $15. Shrman Williams also sells a nicer version of this lacquer that has a higher solid content. These are not catalysed and are very easy to work both during and after spraying. There are sprayable Varnish products out there, but they are not commonly used because they still have the disadvantages of Varnish coupled with the fact that the drying agents added cause the finish to cure to a more brittle finish that cracks and yellows faster. Basicly it is like trying to make a honda Civic work as an off-road vehicle. It is posible, but there are other options that are inherently better. I desperately want to use water base finish. I would love to not have to spend the money on solvents, thinners, retarders, and disposal of them. Unfortunately I have not found one that looks or works as good as the other options. I have heard good things about a finish offered by Sherman Williams called Water White, or something like that. But I havent tried it yet.
After you use different finishes on different projects you will sound like us. Full of contradictory opinions and experiences, but certain that you are right.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Oh, sorry. I read your question, agreed with frenchy, and all others who commented on shellac, and replied to frenchy on a tangential topic related to shellac.
Now, if I had wanted to know what you apparently were asking, I would have posted something like "I make small projects, and have found the use of <this is where you give an idea of what you already use> to be tedious. I'm wondering whether anyone here has experience using spray cans of finish with good outcomes, and what they might recommend, and perhaps a source as well. Thanks."
Then, when many jumped on the shellac wagon, you could clarify further with another post: "Little Pinocchio and I give no respect to my woodworking projects, and I was hoping that someone might know of a more durable product that comes in a spray can, and is universally acknowledged as the best damned can o'spray!"
Please don't assume that people didn't read your post. Assume that they found something interesting in the group discussion, and perhaps assumed that you would recognize that your question had been answered. Of course, this wouldn't apply to a post that started off with "I didn't read the original post..."
:)
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