I’ve been comparing prices on various tools for quite some time, places such as Lowes and Home Depot (on line), Rockler, Woodcraft, and Amazon.com. Has anyone find a great online store where the prices are hard to beat?
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Replies
What types of machines are you considering?
When I worked as a carpenter I always used a local tool dealer. They were at times priced the same as Lowes etc. but you would get the service. That was always worth it. They would deliver parts and nails to my job site, plus let me demo new tools for free.
If you are scrounging for the best price then beware because you get what you pay for.
If you have a dealer nearby then that is how I would go. Especially if you plan on getting more than one tool. Also, they will have folks to help with set up and maintenance which is far more valuable then the few bucks you saved ordering from Amazon.
J.P.
Thanks JP. I wasn't intending on going on the cheap when it comes to tools, making sure that I stick with the top of the line tools that I can buy in my price range. I agree that one must not only consider the fact you get what you pay for; one also has to look at the support service you will get once the tool is in the shop.
JP's response may be valuable if you care about service, but for many tools it isn't important. I don't need anyone to bring me supplies in my 2-car garage, and I certainly don't need any help setting up a biscuit joiner or router. So think about whether you actually need any service for that particular tool, or if it's better to just shop based on price alone.
For smaller tools like routers, I've found Amazon.com usually has the best prices, but many times you can get better deals from other places, especially if you take advantage of a price-match guarantee. Amazon.com also does price-matching so keep that in mind too. Usually I'll check out Amazon's price, then look at other places like coastaltool.com and also Lowe's to see how they compare. Don't forget to account for shipping charges and sales tax. Amazon usually doesn't charge for shipping if you order enough stuff, and doesn't charge sales tax either. In my area, sales tax (8.5%) adds a large amount to the final cost.
"Amazon usually ...doesn't charge sales tax either." Depends on where you live. We pay tax in Washington, because that's where Amazon has warehouses.
Your point is well-made though, that you don't need service on everything! A smallish, easily returned item that you can save 15%-20% on or more is certainly worth ordering on-line. Especially if it's no big deal should you have to wait for another week's turnaround. A jointer, or tablesaw, takes more consideration. Or a small tool that you needed yesterday.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
In Washington, businesses have a sales tax exemption for tools that cost over $100 are expected to last at least a year and are considered stationary. The savings can add up on the shop machines and we need every break we can legally get! You can get the form at the Dept. of Revenue and some tool suppliers keep a stack behind the counter.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
I have a resale (UBI) number. I asked at DSC today, and they confirmed that it needs to be a "stationary tool." I didn't pay tax on the Jet Jointer (3 years ago?), but have paid tax on all my portable tools. I suspect the mortiser falls into that category??forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
It would not normally be carried to a jobsite and is typically bolted to a bench or stand, so is considered stationary.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Edited 9/7/2006 2:56 am by dgreen
Methinks this is another example of DSC being pretty poor in the customer service arena. They don't want to go to the hassle of having me fill out a resale form, and having to file it, etc., for a $200 purchase.
They badmouth their competitors, various tool brands, and sometimes their customers. That's a major reason why I don't spend much there. Oh, well, I'll just deduct it.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
As to the sales tax your state as well as mine and many others requires you to pay a "use" tax which is equal to your sales tax. You are required to report the purchase and pay the tax. The penalties are stiff enough to make it a bad gamble. More and more states are going after online sites records to identify those who have not paid up. Given the fact that most online retailers archive your purchase records forever and given your sherrifs propensity to stuff lawbreakers in tents in the desert and make them wear pink underwear, it might behoove you to just pay the tax.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
"The penalties are stiff enough to make it a bad gamble. More and more states are going after online sites records to identify those who have not paid up."This sounds like FUD to me. Do you have a link to back up this allegation? I just searched and I couldn't find anything about this; only the same stuff about states trying to come up with a "solution" for this "problem" of internet retailers not charging taxes. There was absolutely nothing about states going after individuals for not paying use taxes, and I suspect there's little, if any, such activity due to the tremendous legal costs that would be involved.Honestly, what kind of goober would keep track of all the purchases he made on the internet over a whole year just so he can pay the correct use tax? The whole idea of states expecting people to pay use taxes, or even trying to get retailers in other states to pay them, offends me. The states will only have a valid claim to that tax money when they start sending police and fire personnel to those other states, and start building roads in those other states. Just because they want more revenue to waste doesn't mean they're entitled to it.
Edited 9/7/2006 1:22 am ET by dwolsten
It is happening in Tennessee. If not then I am the guinea pig. Your philosophical arguments aside, which I mostly agree with, the state has the hammer, and it would not be that hard to collect in a very cost effective manner.
I don't have a link, but I got a "sales tax due" notice recently about a generator I bought off E-bay. It came from an out of state distributor almost two years ago. After I got the letter, which made it sound like I was in serious trouble, I paid the tax, and if I remember correctly a $10-15 "fine".
I buy a good bit of woodworking supplies from several mail order houses online, mainly for convenience. Most of my orders are in the $100-300 range. I am hoping the state is looking at a $500 or better yet a $1000 minimum for the people they try to collect from. My guess is the state was approached by someone with a bright idea on how to collect internet taxes.
I've been away from the process for a few years, but it's generally not worth anyone's time to screw around with trying to collect anything less than $50. In my case, if they totalled up all my Lee Valley orders, it would probably be $1000-1200 worth of stuff on average for the past two or three years. So they could hurt me, especially if they hit me with a fine for each order.
There is almost no cost to this type of collection effort once the software and the process is in place. Last I saw, that software is pretty cheap, you could probably even muck around and do it with Excel and Word doing most of the heavy lifting. The collector, it doesn't matter if it's the state or their agent, gets a list of sales in their state from a big internet seller via a download or a disc. There is little actual work on either end. Now they've got all the name, addresse, the items, date, and amount of the sale. The collector runs the software program that prints a letter to the buyer notifying him that they have all that data, tell him what he bought, and that he now owes the tax plus a fine.
Then they sit back and wait for the honest people to pay within say, thirty days. Nothing has touched human hands until the first remittance is received. They are out the stamp, the paper, the envelope, and the prorated cost of the computer time. Since they are almost 100% certain to be contracting out on a contingency basis, the state itself is out nothing. The collection agency takes his cut (probably 25%) and funnels the rest to the state. Since they are the state and we have technically broken the law, they probably don't even have to observe fair debt collection practices. Easy money.
I have no idea what the next step is if the buyer ignores the notice or refuses to pay. Knowing this state, I'd guess it gets ugly pretty quick. And now that I think about it I'd be willing to bet many states have already or will pass legislation to make sure the buyer pays any legal or court costs associated with the collection efforts of those who refuse to pay. Having spent a few years on the creditor's side of the collection process I can tell you those laws are all stacked in their favor, at least in Tennessee. Those are slam dunk court procedings. Hell, it's beautiful, I wish I'd thought of it.
Wow, I'm glad I moved out of there after high school.One of the problems with Tennessee is that they don't have an income tax, so they're one of the states that has the most vested interest in collecting sales taxes. Here in AZ, we have an income tax in addition to our 8.5% sales tax, so they're probably not quite as worried about it.I haven't gotten any letters like you have, and this is the first I've heard of anyone getting such a letter. One thing I'm wondering about is how exactly they find out that you've bought anything online without going through your credit card statements. Especially for a company on Ebay, which usually indicates a small outfit. And whether the company is small or large, like Amazon, doesn't the state have to send a subpoena to get customer information like that? Why would Amazon or any other retailer willingly submit such information to a state without a legal order of some kind? After all, we're talking about companies that are not located in these states, and have nothing to do with these states. This sounds pretty fishy to me. I wouldn't be too surprised if sellers like Amazon were fighting this tool and nail, since if customers found out they were willingly providing this info to their state goverments for sales tax purposes, they would lose a lot of business. If I found out a retailer was happily handing my customer info over to any entity, government or not, I'd look for another place to do business with.
I don't have any idea how they got me, all I know is they did and the seller was Southwestern Supply in Arizona. When I reread the letter, they didn't fine me but charged interest for the "late payment".
Almost every state and municipality I am aware of is hurting for revenue. Once the collection tools are in place, this is easy to administer. Internet sellers keep great records, and one would think most are technologically advanced. It should be relatively painless, once they are set up, to provide the tax collection information to some sort of central clearing house on a regular basis.
I would like to add that I am speculating out the wazzou. The only solid information I have is the collection letter from the state of Tennessee. I hardly ever watch the local news and I've heard only one other person complaining. She'd been to New York City, and had some dresses shipped here instead of paying tax up there. Or maybe she ordered them, but she thought she'd been smart to avoid paying the tax up there. I've read nothing in our local tabloid about this aside from the politician's usual gnashing of teeth over lost revenues. Big Brother is probably watching me as I type.
Out here in Washington the state decided to go after out-of-state sales on large items by residents. It has always been after taxes for things like cars and boats. We even have law enforcement files to see how many times an out-of-state plate has been seen in Washington (keeps people from purchasing or registering out-of-state when they live here).
A new one I read about in the local paper (last year) is that they are contacting the large auctioneers (Sothbys, Christy's, etc...) and finding out what Washington Residents have purchased, then sending a tax fee along after. So, say Bill Gates buys a Picasso for $35 million, he'll find a Sales tax bill for the 8.+% Washington taxes in the mail....
Rod
I still don't understand how the states are getting this information. If some government goon from Washington state calls up Sotheby's, why should Sotheby's tell them anything, especially customer information which I would consider confidential? I don't see how that's any different from Amazon putting up a public website with all their customers' names, addresses, and purchasing history; it'd be a huge transgression of privacy. The only way a government should be able to get this information is with a court order or subpoena.
Well,
There's a lot of "gray" areas when it comes to company records. Law Enforcement has to have a subpoena to get cellular phone records and the like, but there is actually more information available in the private sector.
I just read an article in the latest Consumer Reports about all of the private companies that have your info for sale. SSN, phone numbers, accounts, all kinds of stuff. There were even a couple of people that paid the money to these companies to locate information on the whereabouts of people, then they went and murdered them...
According to the article, law enforcement actually pays money to these private companies as the information is better than that which they have available in house!
Rod
In AL there is a line on the income tax filing form asking how much STATE sales tax you owe for untaxed purchases. That tax is at 4%. Every county & municipality has another 4%-5% to add to that if you can figure out how to report yourself. The filer swears that the information is correct thus giving the state grounds for perjury charges or at least filing a false report. I expect that one day I will be caught up with. I 'fessed up on an amended return filed this year. As I see it, it is a conspiracy to make criminals of us all. If we are charged & found guilty, could it mean that we can no longer vote? I wonder. In case you haven't noticed, in contrast to past administrations which gave favored treatment to property & income taxes, the current one is attempting to abolish all income tax, replacing it with a national sales tax. I doubt that anyone noticed since it is one of those stealth things & no one pays attention anyway.Credit card records which must be an open book (I feel certain that is why I get so much e-mail.) provide the state with all they need to know. There may be a blanket court order to search them.
Anyway, if I can buy locally, I do so. Trouble is there is very little available locally. Lowe's is opening about a mile away. It won't help much, but taxes will be paid off my income tax record.Cadiddlehopper
It's not the small ticket items that usually stimulates states to take action, but for some things like cars, boats, and planes, you can be sure states pay more attention. Even the ploy of registering boats to a Delaware corporation, or offshore, doesn't always work, since the tax is due if the boat is physically in the state for a certain period.
I don't believe states can go mining customer records from a out-of-state seller to see if any sales happen to be taxable in the other state. But if the state has a reason to believe someone is evading state sales taxes, or that a seller is making a special effort to evade the sales taxes, states do go after them. One example is art work bought in NYC and invoicedto a NJ or CT address to avoid tax. A number of cases were uncovered a few years ago and some substantial fines were paid--in addition to the taxes which in the case of a $1,000,000 work of art can be substantial. This made the papers.
Beyond the papers, I've had direct personal experience where the seller of an item that I purchased from another state was investigated about the payment of taxes. So it can happen--not just a theory.
Is there any state which has a higher sales tax rate then the liberal state of Washington?
There's a few some liberal some conservative. I don't think either party has a monopoly on greed or mismanagement.
Here's a chart.
http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/sales.html
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
"Is there any state which has a higher sales tax rate then [than] the liberal state of Washington?"
...but does not have an income tax? The main reason our sales tax is so blasted high (8.6% where I live) is because we have no income tax. It's an extremely regressive tax structure.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 9/9/2006 4:27 pm by forestgirl
forestgirl,
Better stay out of LA county! The sales tax is 8.25 (lower than Washington), but the income tax goes up near 10%, so they get both. (I live in a neighboring county, so the sales tax is only 7.75, but still have the income tax).
Bob
Before I moved east from the great state of Nebraska some years ago, Nebraska had neither a sales tax nor an income tax. Very nice -- unless you were a property owner. As a result, one third of the income paid two thirds of the taxes. No free lunch, but I think the income tax comes closest to the fairest.
"Very nice -- unless you were a property owner." ROFL!! No kidding! "No free lunch, but I think the income tax comes closest to the fairest." Amen. I don't see anything particularly wrong with a combination of sales tax and income tax, but having strictly sales tax, as we do in WA State is very regressive. [of course, there is property tax too. ]forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Sales tax is probably the most regressive because it taxes the least income more proportionately. Those with greater incomes can invest their excess income without any comparable tax. Let's move clear out of the country. Let's move to Arizona. (An old family joke).
I still remember what my HS history teacher pointed out: The governments must tax sources which are able to pay the taxes. That is why the original income tax bill became law. End of her lesson.In Robin Hood's time, King John was trying to tax those who didn't have much with which to pay. He didn't inspire a great deal of loyalty that way. Robin did!Sales taxes take a high percentage from low income taxpayers. Property & income taxes, if fair, ask the wealthy to pay a higher share of taxes. Why should they not? They enjoy protection of far more wealth & property by our military, law enforcement, & fire personnel, don't they? I wish that I had one of those astronomical incomes so that I could pay more taxes & have more wealth protected by my government. Isn't it customary to buy a round for everyone in the bar when you win the pot? Can't we think of taxes in the same way? Perhaps we should be admiring the generous person, not the wealthy or glamorous or athletic.I think that I should send this to my newspaper!Cadiddlehopper
Yep, well said.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanxx!!Cadid
Things that have been taxed throughout human history:
-- Bachelors (England in 1695 A.D., and Missouri in 1820 A.D.)-- Beards (Russia, 1702 A.D.)-- Cooking Oil (Ancient Egypt, approximately 2000 B. C.)-- Souls ( Russia, approximately 1682 A.D.)-- Urine (Rome, 1 A.D.)Besides taxing beards and souls, Peter the Great of Russia also taxed: hats, boots, beehives, basements, chimneys, food, clothing, birth, marriage, and burial.
I don't know what the tax rate on bachelorhood was, but it would've had to be pretty high to be more expensive than being married to my ex.
Property & income taxes, if fair, ask the wealthy to pay a higher share of taxes. Why should they not? They enjoy protection of far more wealth & property by our military, law enforcement, & fire personnel, don't they?
They do? By dollar amount, maybe, but by per-capita incidence definitely not. Why would a rich person's home be any more likely to catch fire than a poor person's? Why would a rich person's home be any more likely to require police services than a poor person's? In fact, poor people have police in their neighborhoods far more often, due to all the crimes they commit (especially domestic disputes--ever watch COPS? Don't forget all the crack houses in the ghettos which require regular SWAT raids.). In addition, whenever a burglary happens in a rich neighborhood, it's perpetrated by someone living in a poor neighborhood.
Maybe the poor should be taxed more to make up for all the problems they cause! Better yet, just cut off all the welfare payments.
Edited 9/13/2006 3:57 pm ET by dwolsten
Perhaps, Sir,
You should read Thomas Paine of Revolutionary War fame on why property should be taxed. Additionally, you might consider the proportion of our taxes that support the military that is protecting US 'interests' abroad. Or the entertainment industry telling anyone that watches a DVD that the FBI backs them up. Then let the industry pay the FBI budget directly--if they loose a $Billion from counterfeiting, they should be willing to pay for all that enforcement.
Oh, wait Bob, you were just hooked by a troll. Damn! Go back and finish gluing those doors. Rainy season (October through September) is on the way; can the chalk point be far behind?
FG
Having lived in Texas all my life and having lived part of that in Texarkana on the Texas/Arkansas border, I've seen what the state income tax does (or more accurately) doesn't do for the state. State sales tax in Texas is 8.7%. In Arkansas, the state sales tax is slightly higher and they have income tax. If you have a Texarkana mailing address (TX or AR) you are exempt from the AR income tax.
All that to say, I have never paid sales tax on an Amazon purchase, most recently my Makita biscuit joiner. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
" I have never paid sales tax on an Amazon purchase...." That's because Amazon doesn't have a "presence" in your state. When my husband worked in Oregon, he could order stuff shipped to him, no tax. But if we had it shipped here to home (Washington) we paid tax.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Yikes, I never thought about the sales tax piece. We are running 7.5% where, so that can jack the cost up a bit. Appreciate you reminding me of this as I shop. By the way, I'm mostly shopping for the power hand tools, such as jointers, etc.
For me it depends. I have found great deals locally, online regulars like amazon, and other on-line traders. I would caution about online land mines. Some online places sale gray market stuff. They are not authorized dealers and the manufacturer will not honor warantees. That's why I verify that the retailer is ok with the manufacturer. Nothing worse than getting somehting bad and then getting stuck. I like buying locally If I can, but sometimes the price break is really significant. Some places will price mattch as well. I guess for me, it's an adventure every time. Have fun.
How do you verify the retailer/manufacturer relationship is OK as you mentioned?
Contact the manufacturer i.e. Delta, Portercable. etc. Sometimes they list them on their website. If not, I call and explain what I'm looking for, and someone will help me. Ask if you buy it from X, will they horor warantee, ets. Document the call i.e name and date of call. I imediately get suspicious if the online vendor is selling at extremely low prices. Sometimes it is legit, but I check it out. I prefer to deal with online traders that also are brick& mortar i.e. coastal tools. I have found they have the best prices on some things. Then you cant go wrong with the big boys like an amazon. I have taken a legit vendors web price into local woodcraft and they matched it. Now I have to balance that against paying sales tax .vs. shipping. I have not found a golden rule that works in all cases, but I am one of those that just researches things to death prior to buying. Like I said, if I can buy it local and support a business, I will. Especially if I have developed a relationship with the store. Hope that explains it. Take care.
I have to say I think a lot like you, especially researching something to death before buying. Thanks for the tips.
The best prices fluctuate between many of those retailers, and sometimes others.
Heavy Duty Tools also has periodic specials on hand power tools and accessories...sign up for their emails.
Holbren.com has great prices and service on bits and blades, and runs specials that are very attractive.
HD, Sears, and Lowes will sometimes run 20% off sales or more.
Amazon has periodic deals that can be incredible. Last year they had the Delta 36-680 contractor saw w/cast iron wings and steel T2 fence for $340 delivered. They also had the Delta 37-275x jointer with free mobile base for $322 delivered. Hitachi M12V router for $115 delivered, Milwaukee 5625 router for $188 delivered with a free palm sander! Last year they put Freud products on sale for 30% off, plus they offered money off discounts for hitting certain price points....like $75 off $300, or $50 off $250. How do you beat that?
Woodcraft doesn't typically offer more than 10% off power tools, but sometimes they offer 25% off accessories. Rockler has email specials too if you sign up.
You just have to be patient and know the prices so you'll know when the deals are enticing enough to jump.
Thanks for the tips. Lots of good information here as well to think about.
I bought my Powermatic 2035 Lathe from http://www.equipmentsalesandsurplus.com
They primarily sell Powermatic/Jet. By price matching I could have bought it for the same or nearly same price elsewhere. These folks were swell to deal with.
International Tool has price matched for me in the past. I just emailed them with the price I found, they checked it out, and gave me the price.
John
http://www.internationaltool.com/
I've had good luck with toolking.com. I bought a reconditioned circular saw, random orbit sander and biscuit jointer there and have no complaints so far. For an evenings and weekend guy like me, the reconditioned stuff seems fine.
Rent a big truck and spend your summer vacation in New Hampshire.
I'm headed up there next week, actually! I completed my masters at Dartmouth, so I find a few excuses to make it up there each year. Any favorite tool stores off 93, 89 or Rte 3?
Yessir. Check out Brentwood machine (brentwoodmachine.com).
Friends,I think we all need to go back to the workshop and make some furniture without worrying about the tax we paid on the saw. I personally have "wasted" more money on tools that I later found I didn't need than I have on taxes for my tools. The cost of gas at over $2 a gallon is insanely high. The cost of housing is outrageous. Did your computer "break"? Try to get it fixed. It will be expensive. Most chain restaurants charge more than $10 for most meals. The average cost of a new car is around $25,000. Private colleges get close to $50,000 a year!!!!! An ice cream cone can cost $3. The big screen TVs at Best Buy are well over $2000.I sorry folks, but I just can't get too excited about the cost of taxes on my woodworking tools. Must be something wrong with me.Come on, let's all go back to the workshop and make some sawdust.
:-)
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Besides Amazon, I like http://www.coastaltool.com/, and for big stuff I've used http://www.equipmentsalesandsurplus.com/ (as noted previously). I live about 30 miles from Equipment Sales and Surplus (ESS), so I can fetch big things. ESS is an outlet for WMH Tools and sells tools that have been rejected--often because the box is damaged. So, whoever didn't want the PM 8" jointer because the crate was damaged--thank you. I bought it for $850 from ESS. It doesn't have a warranty, but ESS is great to work with. Also, got a new PM Tenoning jig in a torn box for $80. This isn't intended to sound like a gloat, but one can get good deals from ESS if you don't mind a scratch in the paint, or (worst of all) a torn box to send to the recyclers.
Aamazon is hard to beat in price and service.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Be aware of one problem I encountered. I needed a SDS drill and bought a Makita. Good drill until I wanted to use a core drill. My model did not do core drills! I bought a De Walt that does, now have two SDS drills.
If possible before you buy, have a word with someone who has used the prospective purchase.
Faithrider
I'll piggy back on BobMc's comments. Grizzly has a twice a year tent sale on rejects that has some great buys. If a part on a particular tool is known to be broken, they list the part and it's replacement price. But you have to go to the store for the sale and for me it is about a 7 hour drive. Still, I've made the trip several times and more than offset the cost of the trip with savings.
It is quite entertaining though. People start lining up at the gate like a rock concert at 5 in the morning and it doesn't open until 9. And when the gates do open, it's a free for all! Like a bunch of druken sailors in the Suzy Wong district of Hong Kong, snatching up the fist toy in sight, only to toss it back for the shinier one, further down the table. I gotta say though.. like BobMc says, it's quite satisfying to score a real bargin.
Thanks Dockside. Grizzly is a little far for me to drive, but I appreciate the info. I do have their catalogue and order from it from time to time.
When buying tools there are lots of thing to look at. If it is heavy items like table saws you have to look at the shipping charges. I recently brought a shop full of tools, thanks to some movers who did not listen to me, the total weight of the shipment was in excess of 3200 pounds and the shipping charge was $7.99. In the past some of the places offered low prices but you pay a lot for shipping. I have dealt with Toolking for my last purchase and was very pleased with the service. Although this has not happened to me, a word to the wise, if you order large items most trucking companies are only responsible to take the boxes to the tail gate, you have the honor to remove them from the truck. If you know a shipment is comming, ask for a lift gate truck to deliver the items.
Hope this helps,
Greg
Thanks! I have bought all my tools, thus far, from local retailers and I've gotten some fair and decent buys. Of course, I'm always looking for that 'deal' as are most of us.
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