I have a beginner’s question: Having tried 3 times to make a good, square crosscut sled, and having had the squareness grail elude me each time, I now seek the sage advice of the Knots crowd.
My first sled’s fence was so pathetic that I just cut it off, jointed the bottom and tried again. For XCS 2.0 I used a method in a FWW on line video last year (glue and two screws, bar clamp for micro adjust/test/repeat cycle, final screwdown), and thought I had it square, but it was not good enough. For version 3 I got caught by fast glue set time (Titebond II) — it’s closer to square than 2.0 but still not good enough.
swannyww’s post 24778.20 and the positive remarks many have made about Incra miter gages has me thinking maybe I should consider cutting my (time) losses and buy my way to accuracy. However, I also like the sled design where both front and rear fences are the same height, and you can put a polycarbonate guard on it. Decisions, decisions …
So here’s the question: build or buy, and if build what is/are the method(s) of choice for attaching a crosscut sled fence? Also: choice of glue, runner material, sled size comments very welcome. I’m inclined to go for about 22″ x 40″ (10 to the right of the blade, 30 to the left) as a comfortable size for my first “good” sled. Or ,buy the Incra gage and sled, though that option feels like admitting defeat. TIA.
Replies
ram,
For my money you need both..the Incra 1000se(or something like it)for consistent length either square or at an angle. So much of my cutting involves the Incra it would be a pain to set up for accurate length everytime on the crosscut sled....and as you have noted keeping it square can be another aggravation.
The crosscut, however, is the best for cutting panels as in table tops and the like...my panel is on the left side of the blade only...and I use an Incra runner in the miter (24", altough the crosscut sled is about 28"). I don't use any glue at all but rather attach the fense to a piece of angle aluminum(90 degree, fense on front only), drill over sized holes in the aluminum and attach(nuts and bolts) it to the MDF cross cut sled....easy to check and adjust to square with a carpenters square.
Edited 8/1/2005 2:30 pm ET by BG
Thx BG. I understand the Incra 24" runner has devices to eliminate play in the slot. How well do they work?
They work Great! I ran into the same headaches as you and last year sprang for the Incra 5000, best idea I had. I now spend my time on project instead of monkeying around with the fixturing.
"Kill'em all and let Allah sort them out."
"Religion doesn't kill people, people kill people."
"...we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our Sacred Honor."
" 29A "
"Kill'em all and let Allah sort them out."Seems to me I heard that was said by the Bishop of Narbonne about killing the Cathars who were hiding from the Pope's men in Bezier, France in the 11th century. I believe it is quoted as: "Kill them all. God will know his own."
Right you are but I added it to my tag line as a sort of pointed comment for those who think it should be our middle east policy.
"Kill'em all and let Allah sort them out."
"Religion doesn't kill people, people kill people."
"...we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our Sacred Honor."
" 29A "
Ram,
The 24" Incra Miter runner works well, the allen screws are adjustable for increased/decreased tightness in the miter track....and of course there is no expansion/contraction as with hardwood....or spreading like with the plastic stuff with the fancy initials. I'm an old fashion kinda guy, give me the computer controled extruded aluminum every time...lol
Or ,buy the Incra gage and sled..
About the only Incra thing I do NOT have.. I like the 5000 thing but never got it??? I have no idea why..
My sled is a wide as my table.. Right and Left... BUT I usually just use my Incra 1000 somethin'..
I made it large for plywood panels.. AND... I have a table that will support it on the input and output.. Both have dadoes for the runners.
The tables are made from 1" EMT? electrical conduit and their fittings. Sort of light, strong, and pretty cheap! I love cheap!
Just 1/2 inch marine ply.. I think it does not warp so easy.. But a bit expensive.
I made it about 12 years ago. White oak runners with 1/2 X 1/2 cold rolled steel epoxied into the oak rails.. (I polished the TS slots the best I could using a hunk of Hickory wood (with a tight fit) and Auto Valve lappin' compound)..
The sliding base has some slots routed in it to hold the rails (slots a bit over the screw size for a small amount of adjustment)..
Drilled and tapped into the runners (the steel part) with 10/32 machine screws.. I'd go check but I'm to lazy but I think about every 4 inches.... Brass flat washers under the Keps head screws.
I have NEVER had to adjust it again! But then again I do not use it very often.. Just when I need to cut large panels.. RIGHT ON! every time.. I do check the cut first with some scrap...
I think the most important thing was having a safe place to keep it so I did not bang it around..
Here is how I build them. I make the runners first, I have some 3/8" thick plastic from a sign that I use for runners. Hardwood works too ,but is subject to minute changes from humidity. Though as narrow as the runners are this isn't much of a concern.Make sure the runners slide well, but are not sloppy, I use two runners for a large panel cutter.Shim the runners above the table, very slightly ( 1/32" or so).Run a small bead of glue down each runner.Place the board,mdf ,plywood etc which ever you choose to use on the runners. Line the board up with the front of the table.
Have three beers, by that time the glue has set. If you are sober, turn the panel cutter upside down. Drill and counter sink for screws on 6" centers.Install screws and turn it over.Test the slide,candle wax on the runners make it slide smoothly.Put a rabbet in the front fence for sawdust to go. 1/8" high x 1/4" deep.Use 5/4 or thicker for the front ,3/4" or thicker for the back fence.
Attach a fence with counter sunk screws on the far side.Make sure no screws are inline with the blade.Attach a thick fence to the front with one countersunk screw at one end only.Turn saw on,raise blade slowly.After the saw kerf is cut thru from end to end, you now will square the front fence. Make sure you are using a good square,I use a framing square that is square, sometimes a rare find.Temporarily place a straight paralell scrap against the front fence,this covers the rabbet so you can put the square on it. Line the square up with the kerf, one side or the other,NOT eyeballing the center of the kerf.Clamp the other end of the fence, put one screw in. Test with a scrap board,the wider the better. If everything is right,add several more screws to the underside of the fence.If need be , adjust until the cut is right on. Make sure you use a different hole each time you adjust for square. Otherwise the fence will pull back into the last postion.
mike
Thanks everyone, this is great guidance! What I am hearing on the fence question is to screw it down securely but not to use glue. I started out following the procedure outlined in Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking Vol 1, which says to glue the fence.
I'm reasonably encouraged to try one more time for an accurate shop made sled, but I'll probably spring for the Incra 1000 miter gage anyhow, and hold off on their sled accessory.
Edited 8/2/2005 7:10 pm ET by ram
If my memory serves me right, the Incra 1000Se is on sale at woodpeckers for about $120.
No affiliation with them, just love tools on sale.
Thanks - already picked it up at Woodcraft. Shoulda waited ;-{.
Please let me know how you like it. I have not gotten one yet, but have come close. As you know, with this hobby one must exercise some control over our spending for tools.
My name is John and I am a tool-aholic
Will do. If you happened to read my post 24896.2 you know I'm a rank beginner and serial overspender!
The first step is admitting there is a problem ... Hi I'm Robert and I spend too much on tools. ;-)
You will love it. I have the 1000se and it's right on the money. They have bigger models, but the 1000se is just right.
If you just picked it up (right before the sale), you might want to give them a call and see if they'd honor the sale price. Even if they give you store credit. I've had this work at other tool places. Congrats on the 1000SE -- I have the plain ol' 1000 and love it!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
FG, thanks! I do think Woodcraft would honor a return, they are very good to work with in my experience. As far as I can tell Woodcraft isn't promoiting it on sale right now, but Woodpeckers has a deal going.
Catch is, I just had to open it immediately when I got home ;-). I wouldn't ask them to accept it back now unless defective. I did a 5 minute Google on the price and the Woodpeckers deal didn't come up in the first 20 hits. My loss (er, learning opportunity).
Appreciate the thought. Your posts on the 1000se were strong influencers on my decision. No regrets!
-robert
Edited 8/3/2005 1:13 pm ET by ram
Edited 8/3/2005 1:14 pm ET by ram
Oops! I missed the fact that we were talking about 2 different companies here, sorry! Yeah, I agree not to return it unless somethin's wrong. Glad you like it!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
My method is easy and accurate. I start with two hardwood runners 3/4 by 3/8 (I used maple) and a substrate sized for your application ( I used 1/2 birch plywood). I glued and screwed 5/4 by 4 hardwood fences exactly lined up with the front and back of the substrate (assuming parallel edges). I placed two pennies in each miter slot (front and back) and then placed the hardwood runners in the slots. They should be longer than your substrate. A ribbon of glue on the runners and then the substrate. Make sure the back of the substrate (operator side) is exactly even with the back edge of the saw table. This insures that your fence is exactly 90 degrees to the miter slots. When the glue is dry, add some screws to the runners, wax them, and make square cuts. Art
Don't forget to remove the pennies. Art
Edited 8/3/2005 4:59 pm ET by Art
Art, thanks. I haven't really had trouble with the runners (but think several of the ideas posted here would be improvements to what I've done).
What I'm struggling with is getting the fence to exactly 90° to the blade. I'm not sure you went into that part explicitly. My efforts with machinist's square and artist triangle were maybe close enough for a one off cut but IMHO not "tool grade" with respect to squareness.
I have been puzzling for some time over postings here and there (other threads, other forums) that toss off references to annual tuning of xc sled fence. I always thought it was standard practice to glue. But earlier posters here have clarified that's not the only way.
My plan at present for the next attempt is 8/4 poplar (reasonably priced in my area), not glued, screwed from the bottom at one end using a normal pilot hole at one end and at the other end with an elongated hole. I'll adjust the fence at leisure until satisfied, then put in a bunch more screws. I'll use the 5 cut method (link here) with a dial caliper to test for square and see just how close I can get.
Thank you for your time and advice, -robert
Edited 8/3/2005 5:29 pm ET by ram
Ram,
This may fly in the face of most of the advice you've gotten. When I saw that my sled was out of square, I unscrewed the runners, keeping the last (back) screw in place, and squared up the sled with a carpenter's square, then re-screwed the runners using different holes. Works like a charm now.
I used 1/2" maple for the runners, but if I had to do it again I'd use UHMW runners (Ultra High Molecular Weight, or something like that), which slide very nicely and don't change with humidity changes. They're also fairly inexpensive at Woodcraft.
Hope that helps,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Thanks Mitch. Now that I have the Incra 1000se miter gage the sense of urgency is much less. I have at least 4-5 weekends of small projects in flight to complete, then I will make a decision on how to go.
BTW, the first (awful fence) sled I made I made with UHMW runners. I deliberately cranked down on them with lots of screws up from the bottom and the bulge totally eliminated any play. In fact I had to trim them a hair with a shoulder plane to get them to slide easily. Very satisfactory.
However, in getting ready for my next attempt, I recently attached UHMW runners, this time screwing down from the top, to a 24" x 30" piece of 3/4" baltic and there is more play than I like. I'll fix that first, then use it for my next go at a square sled. The 24" Incra runners look sweet but at $20 a pop I'll try again with the cheap stuff.
I really appreciate all the advice, everyone! Knots rocks.
ram,
Congrats on the 1000se, I'm sure you'll enjoy the accuracy and convienence. After I bought mine is when I came to the conclusion that I wanted similar accuracy for my crosscut sled...and spent the $20 for the runner.
BG, thanks. I have to admit my "plan" is still subject to change ... I'm a hopeless procrastinator when I can get away with it ;-).
$20 for runners would be fine, but I'm not sold that using a single slot would be satisfactory for me (multiple reasons). So the Incra runners would be $40 plus tax. If I can replicate my first try and get zero slop using UHMW, that appeals to me, not least because I won't be at all concerned with miter slot wear.
Just me so...I have two hand made.. One has two runners.. and slit down the middle by the saw blade (The standard ones you see in the books) and one that has one runner and sits to the right of my blade..I really do not see any difference as far as accuracy is concerned..
My one with just one runner has a adjustable back stop with a clamping hold-down for the stick..BUT... I usually just use my Incra 1000SE.. Which I like ALOT.. But then again I like all their stuff.. Have most of it but not all..
A little expensive but WORKS!
If your blade is parallel with your miter slots, my method guarentees 90 degree cuts . Art
Art, I re-read your post and now think I understand better. Sorry I didn't read it carefully enough the first time to realize you had explained fully.
Verifying my miter slots are parallel to the blade strikes me as problematic. I've used a dial indicator and after whacking my top around for quite a while it measured within .0015" of the right hand slot -- likely not an accurate measurement because the reference plate I'm using only promises flatness within .003" -- and that's only a 10" long test pass.
I believe your method also depends on the edge of the saw table being perfectly square to the miter slots, which I regard as something I would want to verify and not assume.
Please forgive me if I'm too skeptical but that's just me. For sure you have more experience and more power to you. I guess it comes down to choosing a method in which I understand the critical factors and feel in control of. Attaching the fence with capability to adjust at this point just feels like it would work best for me.
Once again, thanks for your help.
Art,
If I understand your method correctly, you glue the runners to the substrate while they're in the miter slots on top of the pennies. How do you exert sufficient pressure between the runners and the substrate? It's hard for me to imagine how or where you'd clamp the substrate down. I'm sure you've cracked this nut, and it's probably something simple, like cinder blocks or something, that I haven't thought through yet. Let me know. Thanks in advance,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Hi Mitch, it dosen't take much (if any) pressure. I think I put a 25 lb. bag of lead shot on it. One or two barbells would also work. I've used mine for about ten years now and it still gives exact 90 deg. cuts. The slot has become widened due to different blades and blade angles so I plan to build a new one soon. It's very simple. If I can help, let me know. Art
Try using double sided tape (carpet tape, non padded) between the runners and substrate. Then turn it over and countersink screws through the runners.
Aloha,
Here's my two bits worth. In my opinion, no matter how accurate a miter gauge is, it is no substitute for a sled if you intend to cross cut wide panels. My sled will cut a square side on panels up to 21" wide. That's pretty difficult to do with a miter gauge. I very seldom use a miter gauge anymore even for narrow stock, I like the sled better.
My method to square up the sled is to use a method you referred to in your last posting. That is, to use two flat head countersunk bolts with a tight hole on one and an oversized hole on the other. To adjust it, I joint a wide board as accurately as I can to get a straight edge and mark this edge. I then cross cut it about in half. I stack the two pieces with the marked edges against the fence and then cut off the ends of both at the same time. I flip one board using the fence to align the cut edges, if the cut is square the cuts will match exactly. If not, I adjust the fence slightly and make another cut off the ends. Repeat if necessary. I screw the fence down but don't glue it, I find that it holds sufficiently when tightened and allows future adjustment if required.
The sled is made from MDF and 6/4 cherry (had some scraps). The runners are made from Maple. If you rip 3/8" off the edge of a piece of 3/4" flatsawn wood, you end up with a quarter sawn runner that is quite stable. Be sure to drill pilot holes or the runners can expand and become tight. I included a piece onto the fence where the blade exits as a safety measure. Since a picture is worth a thousand words...
Mahalo, Dan! (Did I spell that right??)
Thanks for your input, esp the pix! I hadn't thought of using machine bolts. I always used your method for testing before (good parallel rip, cross cut and flip one piece) but I believe the 5 cut method amplifies the error by 4x whereas the one cut method is 2x. Anyhow I'll try both.
BTW I never thought the miter gage would be a substitute for a good sled - I simply meant that now I have a good one the pressure is less for a while. In fact the 1000se has to be squared up -- no free lunch (heehee). Anyhow, I got really used to using my sled v3 (that I thought was square) and much prefer it to a gage.
I'm an admirer of your work, keep those gallery shots coming!
-robert
Robert, what is the 5 cut method?
Hilmar
If you google "5 cut method" you'll get some good hits in the first 10 or so, including graphics.
Off the top of my head, it goes like this: take a piece of stock as big square as your crosscut device can handle, up to 48x48. Number the edges 1 (5), 2, 3, 4. If the stock will be cut on the left of the blade, do the numbering counter-clockwise. If to the right, numbers go clockwise.
Trim cut (taking 1/8" or so) edges 1, 2, 3, 4 in order, with each successive cut referencing the previous cut against the sled or gage (side 1 is against the fence when you cut side 2, etc.). When you get all the way around to the edge marked 1 (5), mark the end corner near you "A" and take a 1" cut. Measure the cut off piece for the difference between the width on the end marked "A" and the other end -- the difference is four times the error of your sled/gage. If "A" is narrower, your sled or gage is <90 degrees to the blade, and vice versa.
The web pages I've looked at say you can reasonably attempt to achieve .004" difference or less over 48", and that trying for better is pointless because wood doesn't machine more accurately than that anyhow. So, I'm going to try for .001" over 12" since that's about the widest thing I can cut safely with my new Incra 1000se gage (which I am very impressed with, BTW).
My dial caliper is not super precise, with easy to read fractional marks to 1/64" and hard to read decimal marks to .01". I think I got the Incra under about .005" error over 12" on my first try this weekend, using a 4" engineer's square against the blade. Just a first try so I'm not worried. I may look for a reasonably priced decimal dial caliper with marks at .001".
EDIT: fixed error in my description: if "A" is smaller, the fence is actually <90, not the reverse as I had originally written.
Edited 8/9/2005 11:58 am ET by ram
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