Replies

1. 
   LeeGrindinger | Sep 01, 2006 03:57pm | #1

   Calvo is absolutely correct. Search here for the terms "microbevel" or "microbezel" and you'll get some of my posts in which I describe why they are necessary.

   Lee

1. 
   MattInPA | Sep 01, 2006 05:06pm | #2

   We may be talking about two different bevel types here

1. 
   LeeGrindinger | Sep 01, 2006 05:24pm | #3

   Hmmm, considering the context I think we're talking about microbevels on both faces of carving tools.What do you think we're talking about?Lee

1. 
   MattInPA | Sep 01, 2006 06:38pm | #4

   My apologies. I thought that the term "microbevel" always referred to the secondary bevel on the primary edge. I never considered putting a bevel on the back of one of my gouges. Do you do this with chisels, too? Is it done instead of the second bevel on the primary edge? What advantages does this give over the other?

   What is a "microbezel"? I tried looking it up on the internet and could only find body piercing pages. Hopefully nobody was looking over my shoulder.

1. 
   LeeGrindinger | Sep 01, 2006 06:46pm | #5

   With extremely few exceptions carving tools are useful from both faces. Without a microbevel there is no control of depth of cut, you can only pare in a straight line.Use the search function in the top of the left frame on this page, I've discussed this ad nauseam in the past.Leehttp://www.furniturecarver.com

2. 
   LeeGrindinger | Sep 01, 2006 06:47pm | #6

   Oh, and a microbevel is never put on the flat side of bench chisels, only the ground face.Lee

2. 
   LousyAtEverything | Sep 01, 2006 11:41pm | #17

   While it's practically a foregone conclusion that I'd be lousy at carving, how would you recommend somebody get started? Trying difficult, new things gives me an opportunity to reiterate my general ineptness to those that know me if not to the world in general. That said, I would like to try carving anyway and would love to hear your advice when you have a moment.

1. 
   LeeGrindinger | Sep 02, 2006 12:20am | #19

   You know, I wrote an article for Fine Woodworking several years ago just for people like you. The name of the article was "Three simple Moldings" and it's still available through a subscription to Fine Woodworking website, or in issue #143.Here's a link, http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2655If the link doesn't work click on "Skills and Techniques" near the top of this page and enter carving in the search box. Scroll down and there it is.The premise of the article is three moldings carved with two tools each. Carved moldings are very versatile and you'll have early success without a huge investment. I don't know how much a subscrition costs but you could order the back issue if you don't want to subscribe.Lee

1. 
   LousyAtEverything | Sep 02, 2006 12:22am | #20

   Thanks. I'll see about accessing that article.

3. 
   Oldtool | Sep 02, 2006 02:07am | #21

   Thanks Lee. I now know you and a bunch of new stuff. I told you I was new to carving. I also read your "Three Simple Moldings" Article. I missed it, but then I was beginning to enter this Carving world. Thanks again.

2. 
   TaunTonMacoute | Sep 01, 2006 07:10pm | #7

   From Lee Grindinger (aka "Humdinger")

   "Rootburl, I think you'd find your tools would work much better if you put a bezel (microbevel) on both faces. Without a bezel the best you can do is pare. Paring is the same action as whittling or chip carving, you remove small chips because you need to leverage them away. Properly sharpened carving tools will cut much deeper and with control if they have a microbevel.

   On the face against the work the point between the bezel and the rest of the tool acts as a guide. You ride on this point and by raising or lowering the handle you can cut deeper or shallower.

   The bezel on the side away from the work acts as a chipbreaker, just like the chipbreakers in planes. The action created by this chipbreaker relieves pressure on the carving tool and breaks the chips as you move through the wood. You can remove far more material this way with less effort."

1. 
   LeeGrindinger | Sep 01, 2006 07:55pm | #8

   Wow, I can be concise at times, Hah, hah, ha...,But, this is kinda scary..., you don't know where I live, do you?The Tonton Macoutes were known for wearing dark glasses, wielding machetes, and leaving their victims hanging in a public place as a warning to others. They cultivated the image of being vodun demons or zombies.Yikes!Lee

1. 
   TaunTonMacoute | Sep 01, 2006 08:09pm | #10

   Don't you love the name... I couldn't resist.

   I'm selling necklaces made from old Michelins if you're interested.  Smoking, or non-smoking?

1. 
   LeeGrindinger | Sep 01, 2006 08:16pm | #13

   ...,got any shrunken heads? My anniversary is coming up and Ruthie could use a new necklace...,Lee

1. 
   TaunTonMacoute | Sep 01, 2006 08:30pm | #16

   Fresh out, but I'll check with Jean-Claude.

2. 
   MattInPA | Sep 01, 2006 08:13pm | #11

   I've had a chance to start looking back at your old posts. You definitely have covered this topic before. Thanks for the direction. There's some good stuff back there.

1. 
   LeeGrindinger | Sep 01, 2006 08:18pm | #14

   Yup, I've covered it pretty well. The ice cream scoop analogy brings the concept home pretty well,Lee

2. 
   EdHarrison | Sep 01, 2006 11:50pm | #18

   The The Ashley Isles "Chris Pye 2 1/2" gouges from http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com come with a very pronounced bevel on the concave side of the gouge.  There is a PDF on the website explaining the philosophy behind their design and usage.  ....just another source for the "bevel on both sides" issue.

   I bought the four smallest of those 2 1/2 gouges and would highly recommend them.  I am using them to try to flatten the grounding on a couple of raised carving projects - something Mr. Grindinger could probably do blindfolded with one hand tied behind his back while drinking a Trout Slayer, but it's all new to me and I see what they're talking about.

   Good luck, Ed

     

2. 
   Rennie | Sep 01, 2006 07:58pm | #9

   Lee,

   Forgive my ignorance, but I'm easily confused. To which definition of bezel are you refering? I'm guessing 2?

   Main Entry: be·zel View Image View ImagePronunciation: 'bE-z&l, 'be-Function: nounEtymology: probably from dialect form of French biseau bezel, from Middle French1 : a rim that holds a transparent covering (as on a watch, clock, or headlight) or that is rotatable and has special markings (as on a watch)2 : the oblique side or face of a cut gem; specifically : the upper faceted portion of a brilliant projecting from the setting -- see BRILLIANT illustration3 : a usually metal rim of a piece of jewelry in which an ornament (as a gem) is set Rennie

   A man is a fool if he drinks before he reaches the age of 50, and a fool if he doesn't afterward. Frank Lloyd Wright

1. 
   LeeGrindinger | Sep 01, 2006 08:15pm | #12

   Hmmm, you'd think that definitions of English words would be more uniform..,,Here's another definition,Noun 1. bezel - a sloping edge on a cutting tool
   edge - a sharp side formed by the intersection of two surfaces of an object.So yes, your assumption about definition #2 is correct. "Bezel" was a word that I and a few others adopted for a short time, I'm back to "bevel" now just because more people understand it. Lee

1. 
   Rennie | Sep 01, 2006 08:20pm | #15

   Thank you for your understanding of my question and your gracious answer.Rennie

   A man is a fool if he drinks before he reaches the age of 50, and a fool if he doesn't afterward. Frank Lloyd Wright

3. 
   BlueEnamel | Nov 28, 2006 06:31am | #22

   I'm on the fence with this one. I have a few gouges with an inside bevel just to see if I notice a difference. I've read a bunch of the literature available, and it makes sense. However, I've also talked with some folks that do a fair amount of professional carving on furniture and they do not use inside bevels. They had three points as to why not:

   1. The inside surface of the gouge is the "reference" surface, similar to the back of a straight chisel. If you change the relation between the reference surface and the beveled surface/edge, you change the sweep characteristics of the gouge. This is also important when using the gouges to form inlayed bell flowers and other shapes, and marking their recesses, consistently.

   2. Since that bevel is small and usually fairly shallow (10 deg or less), it is difficult to recreate the same angle with every sharpening and on every tool.

   3. The inside bevel reduces the bevel needed on the outside surface which reduces the angle between the tool and the work. Since most gouges typically have a cutting edge angle between 20-25 deg., adding ####10 degree inside bevel reduces the outside bevel to 10-15 degrees. This causes issues during carving since 10-15 deg. is usually too small of an angle to hold a standard size tool and present it to the wood properly and maintain control of the cut.

   The counter arguments made sense to me as well, so I'm not adamant on the inner bevel question. With really sharp tools, I've seen gouges that didn't have inner bevels used in an inverted fashion to great success.

   My advice is to try it on one gouge that you use in an inverted fashion a lot and see what you think. The best would be to have two identical gouges, one with and one without and do a side by side comparison over time. If you don't like it, you only have to remove the inner bevel on ONE tool, not a whole drawer full.

   Happy carving,

   -- Blue

1. 
   joinerswork | Nov 28, 2006 05:06pm | #23

   Blue,

   Re: your point about an inner bevel changing the sweep of chisels used to cut the recess for bellflowers, etc.  I use the same chisel to cut out the flowers themselves.  If you use the same chisel for cutting the flowers, and the recess, it matters not what the sweep is, it'll be the "right" shape.  Just choose an appropriate chisel or chisels, for the shape/size to begin with.

   Regards,

   Ray

2. 
   LeeGrindinger | Nov 29, 2006 12:33am | #24

   Oh man, another engineer..., Hah, hah, ha...,It's clear you run in a different circle of carvers than I do. All of the carvers I know use a microbevel on both faces of their tools, teach it that way, and write it up in books and magazines that way. You're new here but if you take the time to read the previous posts and look into the archives concerning microbevels, microbezels and secondary bevels you'll get the reasons they are used by accomplished carvers.Welcome,Lee

3. 
   Oldtool | Nov 29, 2006 12:35am | #25

   An old thread and I got alot of information on the subject from various angles. Thanks to you and all.