I am fairly new at wood working and I would liket to get some nicer hand planes. I am looking at the Veritas planes. My question is what is better bevel up or bevel down. and which blade is beter A or O? I’m doing this as a hobby right now, doing cabinets and furniture.
Thanks Bart
Replies
Either is Fine
Either plane type is fine, and both have their proponents.
A bevel up plane would probably be considered more versatile because you deal with one bevel only, no cap iron, and adjusting the effective angle of cut is easy. What's not as easy with them is putting a camber on the iron to avoid leaving track marks on your work from the corners of the iron digging.
They also have a different feel - lower center of gravity, and in the case of veritas planes, a more upright tote.
My suggestion would be to buy one quality plane of each type (for bevel down bench planes, I would go for a lie-nielsen over a veritas plane, if you're spending that kind of money. If you buy an older bevel down bench plane, you run the risk of not really getting one that matches up well with the precision of the LV BU plane, and not giving yourself a fair comparison.
A2 or O1 is a personal preference - either is going to get the work done for you. To my knowledge, the O1 irons that LV makes are softer than their A2 irons, and therefore easier to sharpen. In most cases, they'll require more frequent sharpening. With the new stones out now, all of the talk about one getting sharper than the other is antiquated (unless someone is using old stones or not going to a high grit, in which case, the O1 would probably provide a sharper perceived edge).
What sizes of planes are you going to need? a Lie Nielsen smoother and a LV BU jack plane would make for an interesting comparison, not too different in size such that you couldn't make a decent comparison, and a LV BU jack is not so large that it can't be used as a smoother if you decide you want to go that route.
As you get more experienced, you'll be able to make old planes perform almost as well as new ones. The exception will be that their adjusters will always be looser with more slop than the new LV and LN planes, which are targeted at people doing fine work and so have finer adjustments. That may not matter if you're a casual user. If you use your hand planes a lot and like to change depth on the fly, it does make some difference in use - how much, you'd have to decide for yourself.
Having one premium plane for anyone who is getting started is always a good barometer of how the old ones should perform if they're set up well, though, so if it isn't a pinch for you to spend the money, pay no mind to the people who tell you that you can "get a vintage plane for $40 and you're wasting your money". You can always sell a good premium plane down the road for little or no loss if you get up to speed on setting up your tools and decide you want to go vintage for personal or sentimental reasons.
Bart,
If you get a lot of practice with bevel up and bevel down planes, it will be about a year before you really and truely understand the advantages and limitations of both. The best thing to do now, at your point in development, is not to worry about it. You can learn to work well with either, and if you get rich, you can buy both. You just asked which is the best religion. The only way for anyone to answer your question is to say that their religion is the right one. Of course, their religion is not the right one. Mine is. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Really, You will be better off if you buy some old stanleys, and learn how to fettle them and use them. Get a #4, a #5 and a #7 (that is, a smoother, a Jack, and a long plane for jointing. Also get a low angle block plane. don't bother getting new Hock blades or chipbreakers. After you use your old stanleys for four or five years, and you get to try some expensive planes, like Lie Nielsen, and Lee valley, you can make a knowledgeable purchase of such planes, and you will always have your Stanleys to go back to when the other ones get dull. :-)
NOTHING WILL TRAIN YOU TO USE PLANES, like buying, fettling and USING old Stanleys.
Have fun.
Mel
Use a mix
I think Mel is right about learning on Stanleys, which will be a lot cheaper and good experience. Even a new plane eventually will need adjustments and TLC, so you might as well learn how to do this on a cheap plane. Note that fettling a plane can take a bit of time, so that may be a factor to a hobbyist . Also, as with many other tools, unless you have the opportunity to use a really well tuned, high quality plane, you won't appreciate the way they are supposed to feel, sound, and work. Find someone with a souped up old Stanley and compare it to one of yours. If they feel the same, the new, expensive planes won't make much of a difference (except for bragging rights.) However, if you're like me, it will be an eye-opening experience.
If you don't have a good plane mentor nearby, it may be worth buying one LN/LV plane, since they pretty much work straight out of the box. I have a LV BU plane, which is a fantastic plane. I still use it as a benchmark when I am tuning up an old eBay plane. It's not an exact comparison, but in the end, a shaving is a shaving. If you go this route, I suggest a BU plane. It is still relatively easy to find decent vintage bevel down Stanley planes which you can tune up, but not a lot of BU planes were made, and the good ones are now collectors items and very expensive.
Simon
Thanks for the comments,I currently have an older stanley #4 and block plane, and a woodriver block plane. I've sharpened the woodriver blade. and used slightly, still have to clean up and sharpen the stanley planes. I think I'll go with the A1 blade and get the bevel-up smother plane that way I can get an idea of the different feel and cut between the two.
Bart
LV BU 164 1/2 Smoother - Great $215 Plane IMHO
Hi Bart,
Just to second the idea of an LV BU smoother for one of your initial planes. I got one a couple months ago and am very happy with it. And, as others also mentioned, I also use it as a 'standard of comparison' when working on a couple eBay Stanley's etc.
One thing about BU planes that I was not aware of though concerns sharpening. Brent Beach makes the logical (to me anyway) observation that the back bevel wear on a BU can make a significant difference in BU performance, while it hardly makes a difference in a BD plane. Thus - for a BU - we need to take care of the wear bevel when resharpening. (See: http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/bevel%20up.html )
Enjoy your new LV BU Plane...:>)
Chris
During the use, the clearance angle decreases. Honing a BD iron automatically restores it. With BU irons you need an extra step and considerable (compared with BD) material removal. Each version of the plane has some pluses and some minuses, and It is up to an individual user how to weigh them.
Best wishes,
Metod
During the use, the clearance angle decreases. Honing a BD iron automatically restores it. With BU irons you need an extra step and considerable (compared with BD) material removal. Each version of the plane has some pluses and some minuses, and It is up to an individual user how to weigh them.
I find that the practice of using a BU plane is quite different. In several years of regular BU plane use I have not yet experienced this intrusive wear bevel as described. I am not saying that it does not exist, just that it is not the bogey man that it is reputed to be. I fail to understand where this extra step and considerable (compared with BD) material removal comes from?!
Where there may be a difference in sharpening BU and BD blades is that for a high cutting angle BU blades require a honing guide (to achieve a high bevel angle) while BD blades require a high plane bed angle (and either be honed on a guide or freehand) and that the bevel angle is less critical. Personally, my preference is for freehanding a blade, and therefore I do make frequent use of BD planes. However when it comes to planes that work on the angle extremes - either low cutting angle or high cutting angle - then I am quite happy to turn to a honing guide for the extra performance benefits of a BU plane.
Simply put, BU planes can be set more easily for a higher cutting angle than BD planes, and for interlocked hardwoods this is essential. While some argue that BD planes can also be altered by adding a backbevel, it is, in fact, the BD plane that then adds another step and is a pain in the watsit to sharpen. For the record, I never use a micro backbevel where I can help it, and certainly do not do so on BU planes. It is not necessary. Both BU and BD blades are honed on the face and back when re-sharpened. They are no different in this regard.
OK, so where might one prefer a BU plane and where a BU plane?
As noted earlier, BU planes excell at the angle extremes - I would rather use a 37 degree included angle on a BU LA Jack on the shooting board than the 45 degree angle on a BD #5 jack. The lower angle makes for easier cutting and a smoother finish.
I'd also rather use a BU plane with a high cutting angle (say 60 degrees) than a BD plane with the same angle bed. The BU plane, with its low centre of gravity and directional force will be MUCH easier to push than the BD plane. I'd say that more than half my bench planes are BD, but I prefer to go for low-centre-of-gravity types, such a razees becuase many have half pitch beds. This is the nature of wood in Australia, and your needs elsewhere may vary.
When it comes to the mid range of angles, such as 45 degrees (common angle), then I go for a BD plane every time as I want to freehand the blade. While it is not a big deal to grind a camber on a BU plane for a jack or foreplane (you just need to know how - I did an article on this), grinding this on a BD plane is less work, and therefore preferred.
At the end of the day both plane types can work well and do the job.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Mouth Adjustments
"The biggest advantage I've found with the bevel up planes is the ease of adjusting the mouth. The bevel down planes require disassembly and screwdrivers, the bevel up planes need a turn of a thumbscrew."
Actually, the Veritas and Bedrock bevel-down planes don't require disassembly to adjust the mouth.
I started out favouring bevel up, and now am beginning to become more acquainted with bevel down and I quite like them.
Derek,
The way I visualize the situation is that a BU plane creates a micro back bevel of zero clearance. Removing a back bevel (that's the beast of geometry :( ) does call for 2-5 times material removing than just honing the 'basic' bevel. You can get a fairly good estimate of the factor by drawing (and measuring it) a large scale detail around the cutting edge. If one is good at sharpening, this should be a non-issue - so a focus on the positives prevails <g>.
Best wishes,
Metod
The way I visualize the situation is that a BU plane creates a micro back bevel of zero clearance. Removing a back bevel (that's the beast of geometry :( ) does call for 2-5 times material removing than just honing the 'basic' bevel.
Hi Metod
I would agree with you ... up to a point.
Reading your post I have a theory why the images of a wear bevel - such as those supplied by Brent Beach - and my practice (plus the many thousands who use BU planes) does not jibe.
I have no difficulty both visualising and accepting the creating of a wear bevel. So why does it not affect performance as expected? Possibly because it does so slower than expected. Before the time it is sufficiently developed to affect the sharpened state of the edge, one is already resharpening.
Wear bevels develop on both BU and BD plane blades.
I tend to strop blades as i work. With BD blades I strop both sides. With BU blades I only strop the back side (where the intrusive wear bevel developes). I cannot strop the front face of the BU bevel as I use a micro bevel there. It is also likely that I remove the wear bevel as it develops.
Some will use the Ruler Trick when sharpening BU blades. Some do this to facilitate obtaining a sharp edge, and some claim that this prevents the incusion of a wear bevel. I did this some years ago (possibly among the first to do so with BU planes). Now I avoid the RT simply because it limits my ability to strop (it is otherwise a good technique).
Many do not use either the RT or strop yet I have never heard complaints - on several forums - of BU planes prematurely becoming blunt. Somewhere between the images of wear bevels and the reality of planing there is a big difference in actual experience.
I think someone - Brent ? - needs to compare the same blade on the same wood in both a BU and BD plane for the duration that an edge remains useable, and then report.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Hi Derek,
"I think someone
Hi Derek,
"I think someone - Brent ? - needs to compare the same blade on the same wood in both a BU and BD plane for the duration that an edge remains useable, and then report."
I give up - as I cannot improve on your suggestion. :(
I will post another topic (clearance angles), somehow related, but applied to both BD and BU planes. Could you have a 'critical' look at it, and add your thoughts.
Best wishes,
Metod
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