I have lots of planes including a LN number 4 smoother, LN small scraping plane and a Lee Valley large scraping plane. Someitmes in difficult grain or in smoothing crotch veneer I still resort to a card scraper which gets the least tearout of anything. I am trying to determine if there would be any value to adding either the LN bevel up smoothing plane or a similar and slightly less expensive model from Lee Valley. These are supposed to produce the higher “York pitch” cutting angle, and less tearout. There is also a replacement frog for the LN regular number 4 plane which produces the York pitch. Any opinions or experience welcome. Thanks.
Jay
Replies
Lie Nielse now sells a middle pitched frog, 55 degrees.
Jay
I have the LN #4, and the LN #4 1/2 with york pitch. I also have the low angle jack plane, which is a bevel up. For most of my smoothing tasks, (and right now I'm smoothing curly hard maple), I use the 2 bevel down planes. However, when I have some real tough grain, or cherry, walnut, or mahogany crotch wood to smooth, I use the low angle jack. I have two blades. One ground at the normal bevel for end grain, etc.... and another that has a secondary bevel ground much steeper, to give me about a 57° effective angle, which has worked wonderfully on the tougher grain. The extra blade was about $35, and was cheap compared to buying another plane. It has multitasking capabilities, something which my wife thought I was incapable of doing! And, the mouth is adjustable, so you can close it super tight for taking just a wisp.
Jeff
Jeff,
Have you used the BU Jack with a shooting board? I'm thinking of getting one and am curious as to how well it works with a SB.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
I used my LN BU jack for about a year almost exclusively on my shooting board. Gave excellent results, provided I did my part. I bought a LN #9 about 3 or 4 months ago, so the BU jack is resting temporarily.
I understand LN now offers "hot dog" style handles for the BU jack. If I would have known those were in the offing, I would not have gone for the #9, as my major gripe with the BU jack was my grip.
T.Z.
Hey Tony,
Have you heard about the new Italian planemaker? They're doing a one up on LN and offering a sausage handle! Both a raw and cooked version! They claim the cooked version doesn't slip in your grip.
:-)
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 12/13/2007 11:51 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Edited 12/13/2007 11:51 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,
The Polish version comes with a Kielbasa. And I hear the Marcous from down under have a 'roo handle, comes in its own pouch for storage.
Ray
Bob,
If only Campagnolo did a plane - sigh. It would be no baloney, more like a rare truffle or one of them chocolates with grappa in it. It would also be 16-speed and made of titanium; or even beryllium.
Lataxe
Bob ole' buddy
I have a LN #9 miter plane, which I use for all my shooting. Hence, I've never tried the BU jack with my shooting board.
Jeff
So, back to my original question, is it worth $225 for a bevelup plane or is $75 for a york pitch frog to fit the LN 4 equally effective. For that matter are either of them better than the scraping planes? Thanks for the advice.
Jay
Jay
If I were planing really gnarly grain, then a 50 degree angle of attack would not be my first choice in a smoothing plane. I would be looking at nothing under 60 degrees. There is a significant difference in performance between these two planes/angles.
If you use a BD Stanley or LN plane, then the only way you will achieve a cutting angle of 60 degrees is with a backbevel. Under this condition it does not matter what frog angle you begin with. The down side to a BD plane (in this regard) is that you must grind two bevels (one front and one back).
On the other hand, the BU plane allows you to dial in this, or a greater, cutting angle by grinding just one bevel. The advantage is that you can also use a lower as well as higher cutting angle.
Whether the BU plane is worth the cost of entry is something only you can say.
Regards from Perth
Derek
How much woodworking do you do? If you are a very frequent flyer, so to speak, then I would say that you absolutely should add a bevel up plane, like the low angle jack, to your planing arsenal. It really depends on the type of wood you work with.
I have found that my 4 1/2 yorkie can handle almost any North American hardwood I run into. But, the key word is "almost". As stated earlier, with crotches, burls, and the like, the LA jack is the first and only plane I reach for.
Buy it, you won't regret it! And, especially with the LN version, if you find 5 years down the road that you don't use it enough to justify it, then sell it on ebay for at least what you paid!
Hardly a risk, if you asked me.
Jeff
Missed the earlier post about your LA jack: what bevel angle dod you use for burls, etc.? I'm with you in your opinion of the HA frog. I have a bronze #4 with a HA frog that (provided it's sharp) will handle practically anything.
I had some Christmas gifts to order from Lee Valley, and for a gift to myself, I ordered a toothing blade for my LA BU Lee Valley smoother. This happens to be a plane I do not use very much, primarily because I use my LN HA #4 or Clifton #3 for most smoothing. I haven't honed up the toothing blade yet, but I am curious to see how it helps with those wild grains I occassionally face.
T.Z.
Tony
I'm not one to measure the angles exactly when I grind them. I wanted an effective planing angle of around 60°, so with the iron bedded at 12°, the secondary bevel is ground at around 48°. I know this is a little steeper than what LN advises for the plane, but it works well for me. For curly or birdseye wood, you could easily get away with a secondary bevel of closer to 40°.
I took a block of wood, cut it at 45°, and used it to set the blade in my sharpening guide, adding a smidge extra lift. I seriously doubt a couple of degrees either way will lessen the effectiveness of the tool.
Be prepared for a some serious pushing, as at that angle, the plane is much more difficult to push. I wax the sole with paraffin wax quite frequently to ease the workout.
Jeff
Be prepared for a some serious pushing, as at that angle, the plane is much more difficult to push. I wax the sole with paraffin wax quite frequently to ease the workout.
Hi Jeff
Again (after my previous post, above) this is an interesting perception. I am so used to pushing planes with high angles of attack that I do not notice any difference. Wait, I did notice a difference when pushing two LN #4 1/2 planes, one with the 45 degree frog and the other with the 50 degree frog. But the latter was heavier as well, so that must be taken into account. Generally though, the planes with such high cutting angles are smoothers, and such planes are taking fine (rather than thick) shavings. Thie lower resistance of the lower blade projection should cancell out the resistance of the higher blade angle. If not, a swipe of wax should sort it out - where did I hear that before :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
After reading your email I was motivated to break out my new 50 degree BU blade and throw it in my LV jointer in place of the stock 25 degree one. To be honest, with a fine shaving, I didn't notice the difference in amount of force required.I was also wondering about Derek's recommendation to use a 25 degree blade always and grind a 50 degree secondary bevel on it if you wish a higher angle. Of course I read this after I'd placed my order or I would probably have followed his advice. In any case, looking at the 50 degree blade I can see how the secondary bevel would be much easier to hone if I had followed Derek's advice. But the primary bevel is much easier to hone with the blade I have...
Edited 12/14/2007 8:54 pm ET by perizoqui
Thanks to all for the interesting comments on this thread. Regarding my level of woodworking I would say I am a very serious amateur, with 30 years of experience and not as much time to do it as I'd like, but will be doing it most of my time in retirement, maybe 15 years from now!
I have not heard anything relating to the scraping planes and how their effectiveness compares to the BU smoothers. I recently smoothed a large tabletop made of 75 year old re-claimed red oak barnwood that seemed to be prone to all sorts of changes in grain direction and tearout. The LV scraping plane did a fair job on it but I ended up doing quite a bit or random orbit sanding. Would a BU plane be superior?
I have used both my LV large scraping plane and LN small scraping plane on curly claro walnut, also with a tendency for tearout (See my gallery post from last week on Newport tall case clock) I find that with the curly woods or crotch woods I can rarely go straight from the plane to the finish without sanding. Even on straight grain woods like mahogany, the finish is more glassy smooth with a card scraper than with the bevel down LN number 4.
Go ahead, convince me to spend some money!
Jay
Go ahead, convince me to spend some money!
Jay, see if you can borrow or play with the LV BU Smoother (this is the larger of the two smoothers from Veritas). Add a microbevel of 62 degrees. I reckon that you will be speechless after this. This is one of the great bargains in smoothers to be had. Its performance is damn near that of the Marcou S15 I have, and at a fraction of the price. Of course, if you want to go that little further, get the Marcou!
Not only will the BUS plane just about anything tearout-free, but it could do this into the grain as well as with the grain. Personally, I have and love to use many planes but, if I was limited to one dedicated production smoother, it would be the BUS.
Here is my review of the BUS ...
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/z_art/LVbevelUpSmoother/index.asp
Here is my review of the Marcou (in which the BUS features as a control) ...
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/z_art/marcou1/marcou1.asp
And here is one of those silly, but fun thin shavings of Jarrah taken with the BUS ..
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
Thanks. I read your article. Very nice analysis. Any experience with the Lie Nielson comparable bevel up smoother versus the Lee valley?
Jay
When you hone these blades do you put a small crown on the edge as you would with a bevel down plane, to prevent the corners from leaving a visible mark? That way the cut is a microscopic cove which never reaches quite the full width of the blade. Thanks.
Jay
Jay,
I've spent a conserable amount of time using the Veritas (LV) planes, including the scraper plane. From what I have experienced, a planed finish will always be superior to a scraped finish, provided there is no tearout.
There has been mention of a 55 degree frog to change the effective cutting angle of a bench plane. This, in my mind, is just another way to spend your money. If you wish to achieve a 55 degree effective cutting angle with your bench plane, simply put a 10 degree back bevel on it. It need not be large - the size of a microbevel is enough.
Bevel-up planes (low angle) really shine because they are capable of having cutting angles lower than 45 degrees - the lowest possible angle of a bench plane. The standard 37 degrees (12 degree bed plus 25 degree blade) is excellent for softwood and endgrain, but not suitable, as I am sure you are aware, for hardwoods and figured woods. If you use a low angle plane for your task at hand, you will likely choose a 38 degree blade (for a 50 degree effective cutting angle) or a 50 degree blade (for a 62 degree angle). Both of these angles are possible to achieve with a standard bench plane. Therefore, in your situation, the only difference between a bench plane and a low angle is that the center of gravity is lower with the low angle plane. Personally, I prefer a low angle as I typically experience less chatter when taking heavy cuts. But a low angle would not produce a cleaner cut.
Something that I have been meaning to try, but haven't had time yet, is to put a very steep angled blade in a plane so that the effective cutting angle is 90 degrees or greater. This in theory, would take a scraping cut.
Sorry for trying to talk you out of spending money.Chris @ flairwoodworks
Chris,
I have put a blade bevel-up into a bevel-down plane, with the bed and bevel angles of 45 degrees respectively adding up to that 90 degree scraping angle. The plane is a Marcou S45 which has a 5mm thick blade.
The plane does indeed scrape very well but is not as controllable as a proper scraping plane or any other dedicated scraper, including the simple card variety. The Marcou configured for scraping can have it's edge lowered or raised but that is the only adjustment. It always scrapes at 90 degrees, of course.
This plane-scraper configuration is good for scraping small patches of roughness on already-flat this-or-thats with nasty grain. It is very good for scraping the saw marks off an already straight TS-sawn edge where the grain is all over the place, for instance. It gives good control and weight as well as a tearout-free result, with no danger of spoiling the straight and 90 degree edge by taking too much (as I have done using a jointer plane).
The dedicated scraping tools are more versatile for most scraping jobs because the angle of the blade can be changed and/or the blade can be bowed to get at small dips or take a narrower shaving. Thin blades can also be given a hook, which is not really possible (or easy, at least) with a thick plane blade.
I try to use high angle smoothing to produce a tearout-free surface that needs no scraping at all. As others have said, cutting angles over 60 degrees seem to do the job in 99% of difficult woods. But every now and then a goblin wood appears......
Just today I have had to scrape some beech, would you believe. Normally a bland and well-behaved timber, I have some that seems to be composed of very thin, brittle flakes that do not so much tear out as spontaneously waft off the wood surface as soon as the plane goes near them!
I DO find the higher angle of 60+ degrees harder to push however, possibly because I am a bit impatient and take cuts a little too thick sometimes (still only a very few thou). I will now praise that S15A Marcou that Derek mentioned, by saying that it is capable of taking these slightly thicker cuts in the nasty stuff still without tear out. It is probably the combination of it's extra weight and stiffness, it being a bit of a splendiferous example of the breed.
Lataxe
I have a bronze #4 with a HA frog that (provided it's sharp) will handle practically anything.
Hi Tony
This is an interesting comment within the context of the subject matter. Over the years of writing reviews of woodworking tools, especially handplanes, I have become very aware that context is all-important. What may be taken for granted for one person, may be a significant issue for another. In this particular regard the wood is the issue and, in particular, there is such a difference between that which the average North American might use and that which the average Australian has access to.
I have said on many occasions that the LNs and the LVs of this world are fantastic planes, but I consider that they are probably overkill for the average woodworker, and that for this person a good quality Stanley could surfice. Of course, this situation ends the moment that a more complex grain is worked. (Is there such a thing as an "average woodworker"?).
I too have a bronze LN with a York pitch frog. In my case it is an Anniversary #4 1/2. I get a lot of pleasure out of using this plane. It is beautifully made, has serious authority when pushed, and does a good job. But not a great job ... on the woods I work. I pull it out for softer, straight grained woods. For the more demanding ones I go to a plane with a higher cutting angle, such as a LV BU Smoother.
Context is all important. If one is rarely to encounter such demands in a handplane, then the choice of one is not so critical that armies need to be chosen and go to war. If you lived on my side of the pond it may be easier to understand that the choice of cutting angle is a more serious matter.
Regards from Perth
Derek
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