I tried the search function to no avail. I have got to cut a whole bunch of metal extension tubes, as well as 3/8″ hollow threaded brass rod. I will be using my 18″ Jet bandsaw. Can someone who has used a woodworking bandsaw with bimetal blade please recommend a specific brand for this purpose. I have over 200 cuts to make. Thanks, I appreciate any help. I’m thinking Lennox, but I want to hear what others are using, as I haven’t ever used my bandsaw to cut metal before.
Thanks,
Jeff
Replies
Jeff, if all else fails, call these folks in Pensacola. Blackwater River Tools, 850-470-9959. I've gotten band saw blades from them for wood but never metal. But I'll bet they can tell you exactly what you need. Friendly and very helpful folks. Spencer in Tallahassee
I was a shop superintendant for a fire protection sprinkler company and we cut lots of steel rod, pipe, angle iron and other. We found that Lenox brand bimetal saw blades were the best!!! In our use we were using a horizontal/verticle saw so that we could easily clamp our metal stock. With a new band there is a "break in" period of a cut or two where you use really minimal pressure / feed rate. This is very critical for longevity. A new band is very sharp and the teeth will tend to grab, so the material must be clamped, and the sharp edge broke in. I suggest that your source would be a good saw service or an industrial supply company. Starret and Simmons are also good brands but from having used many trials in our shop, Lenox is absolutely great. Please see http://www.lenoxtools.com/enUS/Home/default.html
Years later as a tooling salesman, I was greatly impressed with Lenox bands, carbide tipped to re-saw wood for a door company. The cuts were so clean that they could not use it when wanting the "re-sawed" rough look on a house door! Lenox are real specialists!
The only time I've experienced a violent kick on the bandsaw was when cutting something that was round (I believe The Wooodwhisperer has the same story). When the front, unsuprorted edge of a cylinder contacts the blade it can go into an uncontrollable spin and kick that only gets worse as the nanoseconds transpire. It sounds like you're cutting pretty small diameter pieces, which would be less of a concern, but then again I think my surprise was on ####mere inch and a half dowel. I think The Woodwhisperer said he was cutting six inch duct. In my opinion the bandsaw is the last thing you want to cut pipe, dowel or rod on. I've had very pleasant experiences on a chop saw with the appropriate blade, however.
Brian
Jeff,
I assume the metal extension tubes are thin wall soft steel.
What is the slowest fpm your saw can run? (If you are thinking of cutting the steel at woodwork speeds then the blade will die very quickly).
The other thing is that the bi-metal blades are good but expensive compared to the usual carbon steel ones. My experience is that for general metal cutting, including brass, the carbon steel is more cost effective and I can a sharper blade for a greater proportion of the cutting life, compared to bi-metals. I think bi-metal blades are more suited to sustained heavy use on steels. Your 200 cuts does not sound like a lot-and you can get several carbon blades for the cost of one bi-metal-if cost comparisons can be applied NZ to USA.
With thin wall steel tubes etc it is good to have as many teeth in contact as possible . If you need to make clean accurate cuts on the brass then keep one blade for this that has not cut steel at all.
You will know that I need to cut a combination of steels, plus brass bronze, wood and other laminated stuff like OBO. Here in NZ I have settled down to Eclipse or Starrett, plain high carbon blades,1/4 or 3/8 wide around 12tpi raker type and find that they die of metal fatigue before they get too blunt-can't ask for more than that especially as the saw is a woodworking three wheeler and the blade length is only 2400mm.
I think the blade speed is crucial....
Philip
I also have a chop saw with an abrasive blade. I am wondering if that will create too much heat, and destroy the brushed nickel finish on the thinwall tube. I'll just have to give it a try, and see what comes of it.
Thanks to all for responding. It sounds like my bandsaw, being a woodworking type Jet bandsaw, is too fast for the job. I'll find another way.
Jeff
My first bandsaw I shared. It was a little Delta 14" originally set up for wood. We bought the saw used for not much money. The way the saw was made I was able to change the pulleys and belt to slow the saw down. Worked great. It is always handy to have more than one bandsaw.I was using it to work with metal tubes, chrome moly 4130 ( .040" wall ! ) and mild steel sheet 1/4" thick. Mostly I cut the flat plate on the bandsaw and notched the chromo tubing on a metal lathe using hole saws in the chuck, with bimetal tipped teeth. Clamped the tube on the cross slide. The teeth were way too coarse. Not fun. The way I described holding the tubing works and is the only way with coarse teeth.I have been around the chop saws but the last word I would use to describe one is Pleasant !Very loud, wastes material ( about a quarter inch per cut ), yep burns the end, fills the shop with nasty smells too. Chances are the tubes are coated with something inside and out. That stuff is going to burn and stink. Not "pleasant".Reminds me of squashing an ant with a ton of bricks. Best used to cut metal too hard to saw or maybe, maybe, in a foundry to cut gates off the rough castings. The ceramic shell has sand in it and there is always some still stuck on the casting after removing the shell to eat toothed blades. We used it for that at the foundry. Awful experience. The saws did not last long and they were name brand not that unspeakable c**p from that unspeakable supplier.Maybe it is time to add a second, little, bandsaw. Used, inexpensive, always set up with that other blade you want to use but don't have the time to change to. Can always cut wood at the slower speed.I made tube straightening / curving jigs out of rock maple several inches thick using the slower speed. It means the saw can cut thicker stuff with less stress on the motor. Feeds a bit slower but not a big deal. Resaw on the big saw, cut curves on the small saw etc. Not so hard to change pullies back if you find the right saw. Small Delta or very old Craftsman.The saw blade dudes make a blade with abrasive (carbide grit ?, diamond ?) on the edge. Can't speak for that probably for cutting glass rod or some such but is another choice.You will still need to come up with a way to hold these tubes because it sounds like it is thin wall easy to distort and easy to scratch.Oh; and you are welcome : )
rocEdited 1/13/2009 12:56 pm by roc
Edited 1/13/2009 1:02 pm by roc
Like Philip said.
Saw blade has to turn slow and go slow at your feed rate; allot slower than for wood.
If cutting steel clean up all your saw dust, disconnect your dust colection maybe to prevent a fire. Not sure here but better safe than sorry. I forgot to take the dust bag off my hand held belt sander once when using it on metal. The bag caught on fire. That was fun.
If you cut one at a time you can drill through a block of wood with a dill the size of your stock, cut a slot on one side and then add a screw or two to draw the slot closed to clamp your work without crushing it. If you cut a size larger and add a quick release like the seat post clamp off your bicycle seat, things will go faster. This pic holding the grinder is sort of what I mean but use more surface area to prevent crushing tube.
http://www.sherline.com/images/tip37d.jpg
PS: if you have the clamp block extend on both sides of the blade that would be best but leave enough of your cut off sticking out the other side to pull it out of the clamp; or at least have the bottom side of the cut off supported. Makes a less ragged end finish.
You could bundle the tubes. Bundling it gets trickier but if you can make up a rectangular bundle using some soft wood in a troft shape with a block that clamps down from the top with a few screws and a strip that runs in your miter slot then you can mow'em down pretty fast. You need more to clamp your small tubes than shown. Maybe two hose clamps minimum but I am thinking clamp into a rectangular or square bundle confined by a wood carriage.
http://www.tube-fabricator.com/band_cut_steel_tube.htm
I agree you don't want to just try to free hand hold a tube up to the blade. It will catch and spin and that will be bad. For tube you want fine teeth. If one tube at a time use 24 tpi or even 32. Especially for the steel. Too small to sharpen.
In the worst case that your woodworking band saw runs too fast ( and almost for sure it does ) you could bundle clamp in packets of ten and just cut with a hacksaw they would go fairly fast. I use hacksaws allot for my home shop work even though I have a Delta cut off saw sort of like this
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=18280&cookietest=1
At least for the threaded brass tube. Not sure how big the others are.
As far as bimetal; I love my Lenox blades even for just hacksaws ! But for brass it does not matter. The cheep blades will be fine. This is not very much material to cut as far as surface area. The problem is snagging the teeth and stripping them off. Bimetal won't help you there. A rigid clamp up and slow tooth speed and very slow feed rate is what will prevent the teeth from snagging and getting broken off. Especially important for the steel more than the brass. You probably have no choice but less hook in the tooth would be best as well.
roc
Edited 1/13/2009 5:57 am by roc
Edited 1/13/2009 6:02 am by roc
Edited 1/13/2009 6:24 am by roc
Edited 1/13/2009 6:27 am by roc
Hi Jeff
You might want to take a look at one of these. Much safer and probably as cheap as a couple of bandsaw blades. We've had one of these at work for a bunch of years, works great.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=41453
Thanks for the link. I own a Dewalt 12" version of that saw, but I'm worried about the heat created by the abrasive disc, causing the brushed nickel finish on the tube I'm cutting to fail. I'm going to test it to see.
Jeff
Is there a rental place near where a cold saw could be had?
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
I can't comment on metal cutting with a Lennox bi-metal and the others seem to have you covered. I can tell you I swithched to the Lennox bi-metal blades for re-saw and it was a good move. The Lennox runs around $45 for my 18" BS and just keeps on keeping on. So... I can say their product is excellent.
Sarge..
Sarge
Where do you get your Lennox blades from?
Thanks,
Jeff
At http://www.toolcenter.com but I always call and talk to Jason there on their toll free line @ 1-888-778-9663. Thanks for reminding me as I need a back-up blade and it has slipped my mind when I was upstairs. I just called and he was on the phone so he should be calling me back shortly. The cost of a 3/4" 3 tpi (what I use for re-saw) is around $45 shipped which includes the weld charge.
Note... I just got a call back from Don (one of three phone reps) and he reccomended exactly what was mentioned here if you are doing 200 cuts. He said you could but would eat blades up using wood BS speeds and he also recommended the cheap metal cutters as have been mentioned. You could sell it afterwards if you would have no further use.
Interesting and good luck...
Sarge..
He has one
As a Metalsmith I rip and cross cut non-ferrous such as Brass, Aluminum, Zinc, etc. on a miter saw or table saw. I do have a metal cutting bandsaw as well but for staight, clean mill finishes my table saw is best and I've cut miles of the stuff.
Just today I removed a 2' X 2" section of a piece of Ductile Cast Iron on a Unisaw using a Milwaukee 48-40-4515 Endurance Ferrous rated metal cutting blade.
A wood cutting bandsaw won't do cut any metals as good as a metal cutting bandsaw. You can pick up a horizontal/vertical metal cutting bandsaw for a couple hundred dollars. Enco, Wholesale Tool, Harbor Freight.
This is the last place I'd search for metal cutting info. Google will yield much better results.
>This is the last place I'd search for metal cutting info. Google will yield much better results.Still there are a few metal rats lurking here. Metal is my first thing. I remember as a six year old jaming an old vise with other junk to bend stuff cause Dad would not allow me to use the good stuff or mount my junk vise to his anchored bench.Guess he wanted to make me learn to "improvise". The old Bastard ! |: )An I have worked mostly with thin wall tube from the begining.When I was a tot he would not pay for oil painting and other art supplies but much later was all about lending me the money to buy the TIG welder. Supose he was trying to tell me something ? ?>Google will yield much better results.>Check out this site. Now that is a welding table ! ! !
Notice the Spiral Stair Case ! ! ! Leading from the shop ! ! ! Where are we here ? Heaven ! ? ! ?Page down to entry marked 8-21-08 keep going there are several pics.http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=596272&highlight=Welding+TableThese links are probably the last place I would look. But who knows. That could be a new thread "Where is the least likely sited to go to for metal working advice ? "http://www.catrionamackechnie.com/Home.htmhttp://aidanbrooks.blogspot.com/have fun
rocEdited 1/13/2009 2:10 pm by roc
Edited 1/13/2009 2:12 pm by roc
http://www.themetalguy.com/index2.html
http://www.albertpaley.com/
http://tinmantech.com/html/gallery.php
http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/index.php
Tig welding is the way to go. Next step up from gas welding which is the most versatile.
Lots of better metalworking sites out there, from casting to sheetmetal
Nice. for a second I thought the first was your site.Do these people have time to answer questions or are you showing us cool stuff.Very COOL stuff !Nice power hammer. I worked in a studio that had a few photographers etc in the same complex. The black smith used to mess with the other artists by saying he might need to use his big old power hammer during the day instead of his normal 2am time. Yah it shook things a bit !English wheel work ! cool ! get a big one the littln's is worthless.>Metalmeetthanks I copied every link to my book marks
and now going back to take my time to enjoy those posts.
Edited 1/13/2009 2:36 pm by roc
TIG
Yep first time I saw one used I was in love. And she will do exactly what you ask her to do. Can't beat that ! Good thing for us control freaks to have. Speaking of heaven this is my heaven http://www.geocities.com/harriss75007/compagn.htmbut I missed the boat as it were. Still it is good to know there is a SCHOOL if you really want to learn this stuffQuote from article:I owe them a lot; they taught me the love of work
From boilermaking to fixing up an angel's wing, Les Compagnons hone marketable skills in a medieval brotherhood brought up to dateTo see some great photos look up Smithsonian magazine, June 1996 Only lets you on if a subscriber so could not post the good article which I have in paper ( I am not an on line subscriber).If you parley vu Franceshttp://www.compagnons-du-devoir.com/if not there is some video to watch at that sitethanks for inspiring me to dig around in my old files. Almost forgot about this article.
I don't but there were people going to town in French when I first signed onto Knots.Edited 1/13/2009 4:13 pm by roc
Edited 1/13/2009 4:16 pm by roc
"This is the last place I'd search for metal cutting info. Google will yield much better results."Rick, that is not very diplomatic, to say the least.....
I would say this is a good place for Jeff to ask his friends for advice on metal working stuff-since some of his friends here are metalworkers as well as woodworkers and so are likely to know full well the pros and cons of his question.
See: Don Green came up with the best machine of all for fast and accurate cutting of square or round tube.....Who knows, his neighbour might even have one....
Philip Marcou
I nver ask questions on the web. I just go and find the answers and sort through the info.
I'm a firm believer in the old adage...give the person a fish and he eats for a day. Teach them to fish and they eat for a lifetime. Too many foks don't know how to find information. What's wrong with self directed searches and instant answers????
Not a diplomat, a realist and a researcher for a living and for a hobby.
When I first started using the web over 10 years ago I asked a few question on the web I quickly learned to find my own answers to questions by usning search functions and my industrial networking connections.
I wouldn't ask woodworking questions on the metal forums. If someone dropped their saw on their foot, should they go to a woodworking forum, a medical forum or thier doctor???
Are you referring to dgreen and the cold saw post ?? There are two versions of cold saws these days. The standard coldsaw is http://www.wttool.com/category-exec/category_id/18200
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?R=200307901&storeId=6970&productId=200307901&cm_ven=na2Bsawtural&cm_cat=netconcepts&cm_pla=Google&cm_ite=mnetaql%2Bchop% This is the new version of the cold saw. Same technology I used to cut cast iron with on the Unisaw except the smaller blades will work on standard speed saws, 3450 rpm.
See http://www.mcmaster.com plug in # 2431A4 and go to catalog page for other blades. You can even get a blade to go on a handheld circular saw.
I'm pretty sure Jancy pioneered the new cold saw. Saw one demonstrated 20 years ago. Very impressive...
http://www.jancy.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=products.showProducts&cat=21
Edited 1/14/2009 9:26 am ET by RickL
The cold saw I was referring to is the one like your second example, the Milwaukee. There are similar ones made by Metabo and Dewalt. A good rental shop should have one and the amount he is going to cut could easily be done in less than a days rental.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
But he could buy the that type of blade and use his existing equipment and beat the cost of a rental. Nothing better than having a job pay for a tool.
True, but on the other hand the cold saw comes equipped with the right vice for the job and can be used outside without fear of setting chips or dust on fire in the shop.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Rick
I was wondering what you thought about using a diamond blade in a wet saw. I have a bridge style 8" diamond wet saw for cutting granite and large tile. I have 3 blades for it, and wouldn't care if I wrecked one.
Opinions??
Jeff
I know that many core drills cut through rebar while cutting concrete but it's heavy steel supported by concrete.
Never tried using a wet diamond to cut metal. I'd just try it to see what it did. Cutting stone is pretty rough and I don't see that it would be dangerous or harmful to the blade.
I know those newer cold saw blades are designed to cut the metal studs used in framing so it would figure that that would be the best way to go.
What gauge steel you talking about? I will try cutting some thinner steel on the Unisaw with my metal cutting blade in the next few days. I ripped a section of ductile iron the other day and minumim sparking, very little heat. Even the guys I know who work in exclusively metal didn't know about these blades so they were pretty surprised at what I did. Very safe operation.
For Brass, the negative hook blade, which is standard on radial arm saws and miter saws does a superb job. For really thin tubing you might have to put a dowel in it to support the tube.
I've cut pretty thin stuff on a the traditional wet cold saw with no problems but those saws are $1500 and up.
I've cut many type and forms of metal but not all yet but...
I use my PM 66 all the time to cut non-ferrous. There is no danger of hot ships catching the dust on fire. With the dry cold cut blades sparks are minimal but I'd still clean out the saw and not use dust collection. It's not going to hurt the saw at all.
Just an FYI update. First of all, thanks to all that replied. I cut all the parts last night, and all went well. I decided to just use what I had. I cut the brass threaded rod with a grinder and metal cutting disc, so I didn't ruin threads or crush the pipe. All 108 pieces rethreaded perfectly. I cut the 1/16th inch pipe with the diamond wet saw, and it seemed to be the tool for the job! No 'smearing' of the metal to clean up around the cut area like with the abrasive saw, and no marring of the nickel finish. All went well.
Thank for all the help.
Jeff
Rick,
I was referring to D Green's suggestion.
If you feel like that why are you answering metal work related questions on a woodworking forum?
The reality is that Jeff requires to do some metal work in his woodwork shop and is considering the use of his woodworking bandsaw to cut both steel and non ferrous.Certainly the need to cut non ferrous such as brass is not unusual amongst woodworkers.
I am also certain that what appears on the web should not be taken as gospel, same applies to information gleaned from forums. The difference is that Jeff is amongst folk he "knows" here, and is able to make his decisions based on information he gets from wherever he chooses.
Philip Marcou
Philip
I asked this of Rick, but he's not responding. I was wondering what you thought of cutting this extension tube (thin wall) with a wet diamond saw (tile saw). I have used diamond blades a hundred times in a cutoff saw to cut metal before, but never for something that needs a bit of a clean cut. So, what do you think, based on your metalworking experience?
It's ok to tell me I'm crazy, just don't ask me to google it!!
Jeff
Jeff,
I dunno-haven't used diamond saws at all.But for a one-off like you want to do I would use what I got which is bandsaw with suitable slow speed and metal cut blade. Suitable speed is in the range 80 to 150feet per minute, although I run mine at 50 fpm so I can cut gauge plate for planes.If you need to do any tweaking Iam sure you have a disk sander?Philip Marcou
>wet diamond saw (tile saw)An interesting thought ! One thing that allows the metal cutting circular saws to work is that they have a depth of cut per tooth limiter just behind each tooth so the tooth can't hook the work and grab. As I recall the tile saws don't have this but the teeth are way finer/more of them per inch.Worth a try if you don't mind killing a blade. Slow careful feed. Might snag on the flexy wall of thin steel tube.>using a metal cutting blade on a table saw
Still it may take more time to clean the table saw so it doesn't catch fire than it is worth. Wouldn't the belts get all loaded up with metal and ruin the power transfer of the belt for wood? Maybe the metal falls down rather than fly around the inside of the cabinet like saw dust.PS: traditionally they use diamond to cut aluminum for the fine finish it leaves but on steel the diamond gets over heated and cracks off but this is on single point lathe work.
Edited 1/15/2009 6:02 am by roc
>Jancy Metal Cutting saw etcMan I could have used this stuff in the 1990's when I was making fancy steel beds from square and rectangular tubing. I was looking around for something like this. I wanted a compound angle chop saw with a blade like this.There seemed to only be the limited metal chop saw and the wood cutting compound saw. If I would have known about this I would have been in pig heaven. I used a portaband for some, the horizontal vertical for some but wound up just hacksawing a bunch.Don't recommend it for production.Of coarse our business was stolen by some one in Texas getting the work done in Mexico with slave labor so that was that.It was a very small shop bound to be taken over. I was just the welder not an owner.I was visiting the shop with a friend when I said "is that a tig welder you have there?" and the owner said yes. I wish I knew how to use it. I pay people to weld for me. I attempted to teach the blighter but they never could get it and I wound up welding for them for a while when I was between real jobs. What a night mare but the black smith was working next door and lots of other crafts people in the same complex so it was a fun place to hang out for a while.
Edited 1/15/2009 5:41 am by roc
Rick
Thanks for the info. I do not want to use my PM 66 for cutting metal, though.
I disagree with asking this question here. I know there are guys here like Philip, YOURSELF, etc... that have done quite a bit of metalwork. I, myself, have done quite a bit of metal fabrication, but nothing this light. I work with 1/4" thick angle, channel and tube steel all the time. I weld with a stick and mig welder quite frequently, but I have never needed to work anything so delicately as this thinwall extension tube, or the brass hollow threaded rod.
Thanks for the tips, boys and girls. I'll get er' done from here.
Jeff
You would be better off with a metal cutting bandsaw.The Grizzly 4x6" would be perfect for your application .This saw is $265.00 and $69.00 shipping. Bimetal blades are about $15.00,probably comes with one and they should last a long time.I have the Harbor freight version of the same saw.I paid $159.00 for it on sale.I wished I had bought the grizzly,enough said.
mike
jeff
the lenox guys are great. give them a try. on the pipe and safety with the bandsaw: make a "V"block to set the pipe in. I put 100 grit sandpaper on the V channel to prevent spinning. It works for me.
dan
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