Replies

1. 
   saschafer | Feb 18, 2008 08:37pm | #1

   I'm guessing that you want to be able to unlock the door from the outside, right? I don't think I've ever seen any ready-made hardware to do that. Typically, a surface bolt will be used to lock the center of the door (near the bifold hinge) to the floor, but this is something that has to be locked/unlocked from the inside. You could install a deadbolt at that position (with the bolt mounted vertically), but then unlocking the door would become a two-step operation.

   Does the door fold in or out?

   -Steve

    

1. 
   g_hepplewhite | Feb 18, 2008 08:46pm | #2

   saschafer,

   The door has to fold in on itself. I say it has to,  rather the customer wants it that way. I agree with him in that it would be better to have the door swing in but I might be able to change his mind if I cant come up with suitable hardware. I had thought of using an automatic flush bolt and swinging the door out but then the doors wont be able to nest neatly due to the projection of the brick on the outside.

   Tom

1. 
   saschafer | Feb 18, 2008 09:42pm | #4

   Okay, I'm not absolutely sure I understand, so bear with me: You're standing outside the house. You turn the doorknob and slide the door to the side. The center (bifold) hinge of the door moves into the house (away from you). Correct?

   I think something like what's shown in the attached sketch would work. The doorknob would need to actuate a pair of deadbolts, one into the floor and the other into the upper jamb. I've seen hardware like this for semi trailer doors and the like, but nothing for residential construction.

   -Steve

    

   
1. 
   g_hepplewhite | Feb 18, 2008 09:57pm | #5

   Unfortunately I need to have the left hand door swing into the opening as the door is opened (opposite of what you have drawn with the center hinges on the outside).  I have tried contacting a few manufacturers of automatic flush bolts and have hit a dead end each time.

   Thanks,

   Tom

1. 
   saschafer | Feb 18, 2008 11:10pm | #7

   "Unfortunately I need to have the left hand door swing into the opening as the door is opened (opposite of what you have drawn with the center hinges on the outside)."

   You're confusing me....

   It sounds like you're saying that the door simply needs to be the mirror image of what I've drawn. With the center hinge barrels as drawn in the sketch, the center of the door moves in (i.e., away from you), as the door is opened.

   -Steve

    

2. 
   g_hepplewhite | Feb 19, 2008 12:01am | #9

   Sorry if I am confusing you. What you had drawn was accurate if looking from the outside with one exception, the center hinge barrels need to be on the inside of the door so that the door can swing back in on itself. On a different note what program did you use to draw the door? Sketchup? I have been using Inventor for a while which is great for mechanical assemblies but it does not lend itself to woodworking projects.

   Thanks,

   Tom

3. 
   saschafer | Feb 19, 2008 12:12am | #10

   "What you had drawn was accurate if looking from the outside with one exception, the center hinge barrels need to be on the inside of the door so that the door can swing back in on itself."

   Perhaps it's you're terminology that's confusing me, but when you say, "so that the door can swing back in on itself," what I visualize happening is that the center of the door is moving away from you (the door is intruding into the house), right? If the hinges barrels were on the inside of the door, then the center of the door would be moving out, not in.

   I use SketchUp for 3D models, but for quick 2D drawings I use CorelDRAW. Not because it's better or worse than anything else, but because I have it and I've used it for a long time, so I'm used to it.

   -Steve

    

4. 
   g_hepplewhite | Feb 19, 2008 12:40am | #11

   If the hinges barrels were on the inside of the door, then the center of the door would be moving out, not in.

   The door will move out.

   I need to learn how to say no to some commisions. I would have not taken this job except for the fact that this guy is a good friend of an interior decorator that throws alot of buisness my way.

   Take care,

   Tom

5. 
   saschafer | Feb 19, 2008 01:23am | #15

   "The door will move out."

   Okay, I think we're on the same page now. ;-)

   So the side hinges are on the outside, the center hinges are on the inside. Important safety tip: Make sure that the outside hinges are not of the loose-pin type....

   I think the top and bottom bolts are the only way you're going to have any security at all. It would be even better if they were located near the center of the door, rather than the doorknob edge, but in either case you're going to have to have some fancy linkages within the body of the door to make it all work.

   -Steve

    

2. 
   doorboy | Feb 18, 2008 09:16pm | #3

   A fully opened bi-fold door will leave LESS room for egress and ingress than that of a swinging door. Don't forget that your handle or knob will further decrease the travel of the doors on the bi-fold track.
   But to answer your question, extension flushbolts could be mounted on the face of one of the doors. However, you will only have access from one side--not both.
   I think you should swing it.

   "How do you spell illiterate?"
1. 
   g_hepplewhite | Feb 18, 2008 10:03pm | #6

   Doorboy,

   When you say that I should "just swing it", do you mean that I should let the door swing out and use an automatic flush bolt. That is my preference. Last fall this same guy had me do a 36" french door (two 18" doors) for him and the flush bolt hardware that I used has proven to be very good, easy to engage and fairly secure.

   Thanks,

   Tom

3. 
   Steinmetz | Feb 18, 2008 11:52pm | #8

   G, instead of the flush bolts, Look for a double cylinder sliding door deadlock to install above the door knob (or flush pulls?)
   The lock has a hooked deadbolt that expands or, hooks into the strike plate when locked from either side by the key. If you only need key access on one side, substitute the opposite cylinder for a thumb turn cylinder.
   Adams- Rite makes them$$ part#2331
   Cheaper similar locks are available. ('Look Alike' Brands)

   The bifold pair can be installed using an overhead track with top and bottom pivots on the door leaf opposite the lock side. The center of the pair is hinged to each other. Hettich International makes the best sliding and folding door hardware download their catalog. Steinmetz.

   Edited 2/18/2008 4:09 pm ET by Steinmetz

   
   

   ---

   Edited 2/18/2008 4:21 pm ET by Steinmetz

1. 
   g_hepplewhite | Feb 19, 2008 12:46am | #12

   Thanks for the information. I had not thought of sliding door hardware. That might do the trick.

   Tom

1. 
   Steinmetz | Feb 19, 2008 06:07am | #17

   G, Another thought: How about a mortise dead bolt lock at the bottom (Locking into the floor or sill?) Cyl outside / Thumb turn Cyl inside If Standard knobset will fold onto the opposite door and obstruct the opening width, consider a heavy duty Ball catch (Bullet catch)on the lock side, and lipped flush cups in place of the knobs. ?Steinmetz. Google up Baldwin heavy duty ball catch #0458and Ives flush pull #222Edited 2/18/2008 10:14 pm ET by Steinmetz

   Edited 2/18/2008 10:33 pm ET by Steinmetz

4. 
   doorboy | Feb 19, 2008 01:05am | #13

   Actually, TWO types of doors are being discussed here--bi-fold and hinge fold. The drawing depicts a HINGE-fold setup. No track overhead. Bi-folds have an overhead track system and that would be very hard to get a top flushbolt to work there.
   The hardware will work as drawn--HINGE-fold--but bear in mind the projection of the knob will hinder the opening operation as it closes in on itself, and weatherstripping may prove to be problematic.
   On a BI-FOLD door, a two-point cremone bolt mounted on the door leaf nearest the hinge jamb should operate properly.
   Either way, you are going to lose quite a bit of your "clear passage" width to the doors.

   "How do you spell illiterate?"
1. 
   g_hepplewhite | Feb 19, 2008 01:12am | #14

   I guess what I am after is a hinge fold door. Luckily I am not too concerned about weather stripping. The door opens onto an enclosed  breezeway. My goal is to make it secure enough to keep the honest people from breaking in and keep it easy to operate. I am sure that he does not want to have to unlatch 2 or 3 devices just to get into the room.

   Thanks,

   Tom

1. 
   Boogalee | Feb 19, 2008 04:15am | #16

   Try putting a dead bolt lock on the jam side of the door.

2. 
   acornw | Feb 19, 2008 07:32pm | #18

   doorboy is the only one making sense here. The discussion needs to determine whether hinge knuckles are all on one side of the two doors, or alternating sides. Forget about track, mortise bolts into the floor, etc. Once that is settled, and you can visualize the doors hinging into the room (or out of the room), then determine hardware function. The first door -the one hinged to the jamb - will require A. surface bolts top and bottom, B. interior surface mount cremone, or C. edge mounted flush bolts or extension bolts. As latching hardware of any type is mounted on the interior side of the first door, you may have to consider long throw/parliament type hinges to provide 180+ degrees of swing. Once the first door is secure from the inside, then the second door is easy. Ball catch(es) can be used as a 'daytime' closure for the first door, and the A, B, or C used for security. An alternate to the above is to use multi-point latching for the second door. This will latch the second door to the jamb thru a traditional bolt and deadbolt, but will also shoot a bolt up and one down into the head and sill. A ball catch will suffice on the first door. Another alternate is to rethink the "swing into the building". You may find it far better to use an outswing set-up here. You may then go to paired doors (with two multipoints) or even a single swing. Dave S
   http://www.acornwoodworks.com

5. 
   colebearanimals | Feb 20, 2008 12:04am | #19

   Hi Tom,

           Does the door have to be solid? How about an iron gate? Or a pair of iron gates? You have 36" in width to work with but not much depth, hence the tight space? If you want wood, how about a pair of doors instead of bi-folds?

                                                                    Paul

1. 
   g_hepplewhite | Feb 20, 2008 12:12am | #20

   colebearanimals,

   It has to match an existing door that I made for him last summer. The other door set was QS Douglas fir and it was two 18" doors. On those I just used an automatic flush bolt top and bottom and they have been working well.

   Tom