I just have a question, if you have a time and material job, do you charge for the following
- driving to/from the client
- meeting with the client
- design time
- going to purchase wood and supplies for this job
I just want to know what others do
thank you in advance
David
Edited 6/2/2004 5:11 pm ET by darbnywoods fine woodworking
Replies
I'm doing a time and materials job right now, and I do charge for travel time, gathering materials, etc. That works because I am never dealing with long distances, and I don't charge mileage.
I usually do not charge for design time, since I regard that as an investment in getting to know the client and getting my mind around a project. But once we have an agreement, everything gets charged.
Depending on the nature of the job, I will often give the client the option of a firm price or T/M, pointing out that given the probablility of unforeseen circumstances, the firm price might be a lot higher than the T/M -- if all goes smoothly. All this holds true for installations, and the miscellany of work I do.
For straight cabinet/furniture projects I almost always suggest a fixed price -- since I am dealing with known parameters.
David,
1.Driving to / from the client.
For us when we start a job if it is at around or more than 30 min drive time one way, we will charge , but only one way. Anything under no, unless we are hauling supplies ,See no.4
2.Meeting with the client.
No charge,this is important to establish a working relationship with your client. You want to convay a message to them that the quality of your work comes first there trust and happiness is second and the money third.
3.Design time.
As already posted, this is a investment and will most of the time pay off. If not it is good training for you.
4.Going to purchase wood and supplies for this job.
From the time you walk into the lumberyard you are on the clock. The better the lumber you pick out the better the job and the better you look in the end. Every one wins doing it this way . IMO. Hope this helps. Rick
I typically bill a multiple of the raw materials cost, say five to seven times cost, and then add a lump amount of $250 to $500 for the items you mentioned. I don't keep time on a job. I figured a while back that if I can't make money marking up actual costs by at least a factor of five then I needed to get out of the business. I build stand alone furniture out of solid wood. My method won't work for bulk cabinetry made out of sheet goods to be delivered and installed.
This method works for the work I do. If you are a sole practitioner furnituremaker you most likely have nothing but time on your hands so it's almost a non-issue. If you start to get a lot of orders, competing uses of your time, then maybe timekeeping is an exercise worth the effort. However, if you find you end up billing much in excess of seven to ten times raw material costs you will price yourself out of your market. If you don't, then thank the good Lord you set up your operation where you did.
With all that said, if the client has requested a billing for time and materials then I would give them precisely that, although I would probably not bill for delivery. However, if it will take a few hours to get the project dropped off and you back to your shop you could bury a couple of hours in the job somewhere.
Your design time is the most premium time you'll spend on the job. To not bill for that would be ludicrous. If you decide to use the multiple of raw material cost on a job that will require extensive design time then just pump the multiple up a bit to cover it. On a few occassions, I've billed separately for the design and for the piece - two line items on the invoice. On these occasions, I've billed the design time at $50 per hour, which was too light in retrospect.
Edited 6/2/2004 1:09 pm ET by cstanford
On a time and materials job my answer would be yes to all your questions. This is assuming that you know what you are doing. If you are just starting out and don't know how to communicate with a client, don't know how to design, and have to shop around for materials then you should rethink charging at all. But for someone who knows all of the above, why on earth shouldn't that time be paid for?
A journeyman shouldn't have any need for "practice."
that is what i am doing. i just wanted to see what others are doing.
david
http://www.darbynwoods.com
Edited 6/2/2004 5:10 pm ET by darbnywoods fine woodworking
I pretty much go the route that ADESIGNS does. I always charge for time shopping and put 20% on top. If it's anything over 30 minutes, I will charge for travel. Design time, a resounding yes....that's all part of the work isn't it?. If you don't charge, all the running around will kill you.
You guys should charge your clients for everything. If they want good work they should pay for all of the work. Do not sell yourselves short. Woodworking is not a fast trade. If they wanted crap the could go to the crap store and buy it. They want you guys for your fine furniture so charge them. You guys are masters so you should make really good money.
Okay, but what if someone shows you a picture of a dresser, for example, and asks what it'll cost to make one just like it? Do you have a set of questions that you ask the client about the materials, joinery, finish etc.. that they want? Would you charge more to use dovetails on the drawers as opposed to say a dado?
The reason I ask is that I have been woodworking on and off for about 15 years as a hobby and to build furniture for my family. I'm starting to get some neighbors asking if I could build things for them. Bedroom furniture, kitchen tables and even things like jewelry boxes. I don't want to turn this stuff away but I have no idea how much to charge for anything.
Robert ,
It is very important to ask those questions to your potential clients. So you really know what they want and expect in the end product.Based on the criteria and details you then will be able to know your materials and joinery and other details,including time.I then formulate a plan or a working drawing , mostly for myself to work out the bugs and get a materials list. Finding where the market price is in your area can take time and trial and error. Try not to talk too technical with your clients , let them leave the how toos up to you the professional.I go through each step or process of the job in my mind and on paper and put a cost to each line item. Some of this is projecting or educated guessing if you will , based on past works of similarities . I personally will not work T & M , IMHO it is not fair to the client . I give a firm bid and stick to it . When you are wrong you chalk it up to experience and make a mental note where you went wrong . Chances are you won't make the same oversight in the future.Occaisonally I have given a range of a price like $1,200 to $1,500 depending on variable factors. But that way the client knows what to expect without giving you the deer in the headlight look when you tell them what they owe you.I think real furniture and one of a kind pieces are certainly more difficult to bid accurately than say kitchen cabinets. The more you bid and build the better bidder you will be. Also no drawings leave my hands until I have a deposit or commitment.This can prevent them from ripping you off by taking your plan to other bidders, when much time has been spent by you in the plan or drawings.Building a cushion in to pay you for extra trips and time consuming clients and any other , others may be a wise practice I hope this helps you a bit dusty
Thanks a lot for the insight. At this point I am by no means a master craftsman, but I've had some pretty good reaction to many of the pieces I've produced. I guess for now I can go by maybe doubling the cost of materials and work my way around those figures to start out. At this point I do have a day job so it wont break my heart if someone thinks I'm to expensive and it would be worthwhile money wise for me if they don't.
Don't price work by some multiple of the materials cost; especially a multiple as low as 2! You will end up getting perhaps 10 cents an hour... Materials cost is almost irelevant. There really is no substitute for experience in developing a judgement for how long it will take you to make something, and therefore how much you should charge in order to make a decent wage. (I don't have enough of this experience yet and am continually pricing too low.)
Another way to look at it, if you are not trying to make a living at this yet, is to simply decide how much profit you feel like making. If it's a project you really want to do, then you can price it lower because the money isn't really the important part of the equation. If it's something you don't really want to make, then charge more money to make it worthwhile."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Albion is absolutely right about that 2X materials thing! I'm not a pro WW'er but I bid painting jobs as part of my daily grind. The materials are only about 10-15% of the average job. I know painting isn't WW'ing but I think there might be a comparison to look at (time/skill vs. material). My 2cw. Best of luck on the venture!
Regards,
Mack "WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
I concur with the others on the multiplier. I keep pretty accurate job cost records, along with material multipliers after the job is complete. My multipliers range from 3 on a material heavy furniture project to 20 to 25 on repairs or more labor intensive jobs. Obviously job size has a lot to do with the numbers. I track them purely as a "check" when I estimate similar jobs.
Thanks for the info. My thinking concerning the 2X multiplier was based on a dresser I'm making for my wife. I have about $400.00 in materials in it and about 60 hours time, spread out over about 3 weeks. I'm not trying to make a living building furniture, just having fun and looking to purchase some new tools with any profits I might make.
So if a neighbor askes me to build one for them, I could be comfortable saying $800.00 for the same piece. If they think it's too much, then they can go somewhere and buy it from Sauder or whoever. No real skin off my nose.
At those rates Robert, there is no profit. You're in a financial hole.
Let's see.
You have $400 in materials. Presumably you had to go somewhere and pick them up, or have them delivered. That costs time, and vehicle wear and tear. Mark it up by 100% = $800.
Okay. Let's forget marking up materials and just go on your labour charge.
You reckon about 60 hours over 3 weeks. That's $400/ 60 = $6.6666 per hour. McDonalds pay better to be illiterate and innumerate and simply serve up french fries.
If you have no costs running your workshop you've just made $6.6666 per hour for your work, and no profit on your costs incurred on gathering together your materials, and no profit on your investment in your workshop.
Most workshops have overheads, such as lighting, rent and/or mortgage, sharpening of tooling, heating/cooling, purchase of machinery, sundries like sandpaper and screws, glue, nails, and so on., machinery maintenance, workshop maintenance, etc., and this applies even to amateur workshops not in this game for profit.
Working one man workshop overheads typically cost at least $10 to $15 per hour for a nominal 40 hour week.
Let's see how I price this as a working furniture maker.
Materials cost. $400. Resell at $800. My knowledge, training, qualifications, vehicle costs, etc., aren't free.
Labour at US$50 per hour X 60 hours = $3000
Mark up for profit, say 25% on $3,800 = $950.
Add it all together = $4,750.
Charge for delivery and installation-- two men and a vehicle let's say about $250.
Total = $5,000, plus tax at for example TX rates of 8.25% = $391.87-- delivery is a non-taxable charge so it's 8.25% of $4,750.
Total bill, including tax = $5391.87.
In conclusion, if your neighbours baulk at your suggested charge of $800 for the whole thing I'd tell them to go and make love to themselves. I'd ask if they've ever called in a plumber to fix a simple leaky toilet. Slainte.RJFurniture
Slainte
Well put!!
I have a good friend who got a price of 3K for a custom vanity for the bathroom.He asked me to look at doing it because"$3000 is just ridiculous". Well, with building a custom Avonite top/sink, buying the boxes out, building the doors,drawers,good accuride hardware, AND, installing it, and using my $35 to $50 shop rate,,,I passed...I'd rather play golf.....
Yes I would have to agree....well put. However, as I have stated previously, I am by no means a Master Woodworker, nor a designer. I have a full time job that keeps me quite busy and do woodworking as a hobby and build furniture for my family. I don't have the desire to make a living building custom furniture (at least not yet. I'm 40).
My view on this is that if I spend 3 hours a day in my workshop/garage building a dresser for a neighbor over the course of 3 weeks and sell it to them for 2 or 3 times material cost, I have accomplished several things.
1) I get to spend all of that time in my shop doing what I love to do. For me, it's a lot of fun to take a pile of material and turn it into a sturdy, functional piece of furniture for someone (be it myself or neighbor) to enjoy for many many years to come.
2) I gain valuable experience working with joinery, finishes, techniques etc...
3) If I do sell that piece for a profit of $400 to $800, I can then go out and buy that extra router I've had my eye on, a new dado set or a mortising machine or all of the above!
4) My neighbors are by no means wealthy. The thought of any of them spending $4500 or $5000 on a single piece of furniture is laughable. I live in an area where the homes sell for $80- $100,000. $5000 is a typical kitchen re-model. If I can sell one of them a good quality dresser that will last them a lifetime for $800 or so, then so what? I certainly won't be hurting anyone trying to make a living doing it by your description of fair pricing.
So in a nutshell, If I was as skilled as you and several others who post on this board are at building and designing (evidenced by your website) and had the clientel that would spent that kind of money on a dresser, then I could see your point better.
Robert, I appreciate this is a hobby to you, and you love to be out there making stuff.
Still, I'd suggest you consider charging more than $800-- perhaps up to double that amount.
Even an amatuer incurs costs in collecting together all the materials-- wood, hardware, polish, etc.. Your vehicle must cost something to run to do this, if only $100 or so in fuel, wear and tear, depreciation and maintenance, and the phone isn't free, especially if you use your mobile at 30 c a minute or whatever the charge is.
Your workshop must also incur some costs as overhead-- lighting, heating cooling, sharpening, sundries, router bits, replacement parts for equipment used on this project, and so on.
$800 seems likely only to cover your outgoings and there would be little or nothing left to buy even a $200 or $300 router. You need some profit of some sort to invest in new equipment.
Whilst I appreciate your hobby status, amateurs probably ought to bear in mind that in working extremely economically they are also 'educating' many of the general public into thinking furniture skills are generally cheaper than they really are-- I come across it all the time where people are horrified to find that I can't build items for less than can be bought at a furniture retailers or out of a catalogue. Slainte.RJFurniture
Sgian,
Amen, and amen!
Regards,
Ray
Once again, point taken.
When you price a piece of furniture for a customer, what role should the market bear on that price? Like I mentioned in my last post, people in my neighborhood would NEVER pay $5,000 for a single piece of furniture. $800-1600 maybe, but not much more. Like I said, $5,000 is a kitchen remodel around my neighborhood.
As far as overhead, mine is minimal. I work out of my garage (well, half of it anyway). No heat or A/C. I don't have a showroom, and the newest tool I own is a brad nailer I bought at the orange box for 90 bucks 3 weeks ago. I havent bought any machines for 5 years and am currently not looking to upgrade anything. But an extra router or a mortising machine would be nice.
If I was to solicit work in this area of the country at prices in the $2-5000 range, I would need a great reputation as a furniture builder/designer, some pictures of work and maybe some testimonials, the will and know how to go out and market myself, and last but not least a lot more woodworking skill, none of which I have. The skill is the only part I'm working on now.
I can understand where you are coming from, don't get me wrong. It's just that in my neck of the woods, the people I know and who have asked me if I could build a dresser like the one I built for my wife for thier home wouldn't spend more that kind of money on a dresser. There are more affluent areas within 20 miles of here as well as less affluent. I don't want to make a living at this, but if I could fund a few more projects of my own or buy some new tools, then why not? I won't be able to sell a dresser for $2-5,000 around here so why not at least price myself in a range I feel I could make some sales?
Jewelry boxes I can see selling for $400 or more around here. Things like that could be done easily and can be built nicely with very little cash output on my part. $400 bucks is a good number for birthday, anniversary and holiday gifts.
Robert, you've just said that you spent $90 on a brad nailer, and all your machinery is at least five years old. I do believe that even the amateur has to consider certain expenses, such as your new brad nailer, or what happens if a major repair cost is incurred to your machinery because of this job?
Without doing the paying job your major machine (that broke in this job) might last you another two or three years of light use-- purely as an amateur. Now you have to fix it, which costs money, and possibly your time. You might even have to replace it altogether so that you can carry on whacking wood for fun.
Once you step over the line of doing woodworking for fun and take on paying jobs of any sort you enter a whole new realm-- business. Business isn't cosy. It's demanding, exacting, cruel, stressful, tedious, and you need profit to run a business.
You may already be a businessman and understand all this, but business is also all about promises, meeting them, risk, performance, customer expectations, customer relations, delivery times, and a whole host of things that detract from the cosy image of woodworkers lovingly crafting items in rural idylls in relaxed leisure.
Whilst I understand the demographics of your neighbourhood as you describe them, and the price points you're stuck with, I still think $800 is underselling yourself.
Put it this way. My hobby is rugby. I love the whole rugby thing, as an amateur. I like cracking skulls on the pitch, even though I am now decrepit with the wind of a wet fart. I love the (claimed) excessive boozing and joie de vivre we amateurs are renowned for, the mild trouble-making, the fines for sleeping on tour, the kangaroo courts, the camaraderie (sp?) the legendary tours without our wives and girlfriends, going to watch real rugby players get stuck into one another at international matches, and Celtic League or Heineken Cup games, etc. It's magic.
Ask me to play a game with a team of professionals, or semi-professionals at any level and I'd run from it as fast I could, which isn't very fast nowadays. I can't and won't ever try and keep up with their level of fitness, training, ability, dedication and single-mindedness. Slainte.RJFurniture
Richard..
As an amateur, I'm pretty much in the same boat as Robert here; I've no idea how to price my work when building something that isn't for myself. But maybe I'm learning...
This afternoon, I'd a visit from the end recipients of my current (feels like it's never gonna end) project; a bed. From the outset, it's always been intended as a gift to them; a wedding present. Circumstances beyond my control saw the completion date come and go with the project barely half way through completion. Anyway... this afternoon I dry assembled what I had (completed headboard + structural members for the rails and foot board) just to let them see what's been going on. Conversation got around to house insurance, and I recommended that they insure it once completed for....£7,500. I've about £500 in materials, maybe as much again in tooling, consumables etc. I made a point of not keeping count of my hours..the fact that it's still incomplete is depressing enough. I plucked the value outa the air, guessing at how much it'd cost for a pro to replace a hand made bed. How far out was I..???Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Hmmm? Probably not too far out, Mike. I've got a bed here I made in the US for exhibition a year or two back and I shipped it with me to the UK to exhibit when I moved home.
Its very similar partner was sold for $5,700, plus 8.25% TX sales tax to a Texas buyer. The bed I have back here in the UK uses the same numbers, but they're pounds, i.e., in £5,700. I'm not registered for VAT at the moment, but if I was there'd be 17.5% to add, plus a delivery charge dependent upon where to.
A bit of discount is built in for it being an already built piece using US mattress sizes, and not a custom order to UK mattress sizes-- A US Queen is close to a UK king size. I'm not really into haggling on my charges nowadays, but an order for something similar might cost about £1,000 more including the design fee and making charge. Slainte.RJFurniture
Richard...
Thanks for the break down... this thing was based on a downloaded plan set, sizes optomised for UK mattress size, and then the design reworked to negate the temptation of handcuffs being used.... I DIDN'T ask..!!! Replaced the origonal spindles in the head / foot boards with solid Elm panels. The bit I've still to work out is how much squeek to build into the slats; if I get 'em jussst right they should have a profound contraceptive effect..;)
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Robert ,
Maybe you should go look around at the furniture stores in your market region and see for yourself what they get for a piece comparable to what you have built. You may be surprised , but oh what a surprise it may be. When I did that very thing about 20 years ago I was shocked to find out how much they sold mostly piles of particle board type furniture with a bit of veneer here and there and some unsanded moldings and such. Usually they were stained very dark to hide the poor craftsmanship and poor joinery , and generally the worse a piece the more glossy a finish they had , I guess to attract people like a moth to a flame .Most likely you may not find comparable pieces but more inferior ones that may be selling for more than $800 bucks . Pull a drawer out and look at the inside of the cabinet see the quality vs the price. I agree with you that you can't price yourself out of your market place by too much . I personally have a policy when doing a job for family , friends ,neighbors or familiars I either charge full price or do it for free. If I do it for half price my heart will not be in it as much knowing there will be no payoff at the completion.Also I may tend to cut corners and provide less than the best of my ability . This also is a great way to lose a friend,I have never had a problem when I charge full price.If you just want the practice then do it for what ever price you want. But for myself after about 25 years or so unlike a Doctor I am not practicing anymore.Without gouging or ripping anyone off I charge as much as I possibly can.I have paid my dues and am a graduate of the Pacific Northwest School of hard knocks.
dusty
<But for myself after about 25 years or so unlike a Doctor I am not practicing <anymore
Thats the key, I would rather go fishing or watch rugby than give it away.
I would like to thank you for educating me as to what it (really costs) to operate a shop. There are a lot of variables that I would never have considered. Even though my interest in woodworking is strictly amateur/hobbyist, I would get a lot of satisfaction in selling some things. By no means do I want to do this professionally at this point, however as this discussion has progressed I must say that my interest has been piqued.
Slainte, I will look at these issues you mentioned very carefully. My biggest concern is that by telling someone that a copy of my wife's dresser will run around 4 to $5000 bucks, they wont be interested in having me build it. I'll give it a go for $1600 if this should turn out to be my first commissioned piece and see how it goes. I will take into account any and all changes from the original dresser ie;"If you want it in 2 weeks then it'll be $500 more". (maybe more tactfully put). I'm never afraid to ask for money when I've earned it, I just have never earned money in this way.
Dusty, It's funny you should mention looking in furniture stores for comparable pieces. I was killing some time at Woodcraft today and across the street a new furniture store had opened up. I went in and looked around and lo and behold it was full of solid wood furniture. The salesman told me it was all handcrafted in the USA out of solid wood. No particle board in here! So I wandered around a bit and took special interest in the bedroom furniture. There is a queen bed in there that looks similar to one I built last fall. Unfinished, they wanted $999. Now I know that this bed couldn't have $200 in materials in it. It also seemed like it came out of a factory and not "hand made" as I define it. There were also dressers similar to the one I just finished ranging in price from $800 to $1500. The $800 ones were unfinished and the drawers were butt jointed with staples and glue! The more expensive ones were dovetailed on the draw front and stapled in the back. They were also stained and or poly'd.
Thanks again for the comments and encouragement. If I do sell some stuff in the near future, I'll set up a website and post some pictures and let you all know how the $ale went
Regards,
Bob
Sounds like this has been a very helpful discussion all around. You're on the right track, I think, looking at the price as a reflection of value.
Value is really the thing we need to figure out; price is simply a convenient way of expressing the value of a piece. But there are a lot of factors to consider.
The base, or lowest value, would be the cheapest functionally equivalent article available. Someone who was solely concerned with function and price would base their buying decision on this. These people are virtually never our customers; they buy from Wal-Mart, or thrift stores.
From there, value is added by quality of materials and construction. This gets you into the range of manufactured solid-wood furniture. There is still a very wide range of values here, because well-made but inexpensive imported furniture is available. This is about the level you were originally thinking of - pricing your work to compete with imports.
Next, value is added by branding, warranties, and marketing. None of this adds anything tangible to the furniture, but it makes it more valuable to the buyer. You might consider the personal relationship between you and the customer as adding this kind of value. Being intangible, it is a completely subjective value, and therefore difficult to price; but it is nevertheless real and should be included.
There may also be value in the uniqueness of a piece - if it is something that is simply unavailable from any other source, then it is more valuable, roughly to the degree that it differs from other versions that are available.
At the top end, value is added by the skill level and reputation of the maker. Again, this is intangible and difficult to quantify, but you can see its effects clearly in the price jump between high-quality brand-name furniture from a store and the products of custom craftsmen like some on this forum. The customer is paying extra - sometimes a LOT extra - for the prestige that they feel from owning a product of such extreme craftsmanship. At this level it is about like buying art.
The bottom line is that the total value of a piece of furniture is largely determined by the perceptions of the person buying it. We have to try to estimate that value in advance of construction, in order to price it. Then we also have to run the kind of "reality check" calculations that Sgian Dubh described, in order to determine whether it is worth our time. If the perceived value isn't going to cover our costs, then either we have to raise the value somehow or walk away. But as you correctly note, our costs also are not necessarily fixed - we have varying ideas about the value of our time, for example, and overhead may be more or less significant.
In the end, I think it still comes down to a basic question: How much money do you have to get in order to make it worthwhile? Lots of people make high-end furniture for free (the usual spousal discount rate). Most of my stuff is priced too cheap, partly because I just like making it and partly because I'm still figuring this stuff out. "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Then there's always the definition of value I hold as a consumer: "The real value lies in what I'm willing to pay for it."
That was my point! Guess I was too long-winded... The thing is, what you as a consumer are willing to pay might depend on a lot of factors, many of which are unknown to us as manufacturers. And, of course, that's only the value to you - the guy next to you might value the same thing twice as much.
Most people are willing to pay more for better quality... up to the point where improved quality has no effect on their use or enjoyment of the item. They support furniture stores like the one you visited. Unless you can convince your customers that your furniture is worth more (because it is made by you, or is better made, or has unique design), those stores establish your prices.
Some people are obsessed with quality and have the means to pay for it. They support the high-end custom furniture makers. "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
I think you said itvery well. Setting prices goes well beyond any time and material equation. Sometimes you just have to decide you want to do that kind of work and try not to get to caught up in the fact that people making cheaper work can get what it's worth and you may not.
One thing about Robert's question about added value; charging more for dovetails etc. I would decide what kind of work you are going to do and stick to it. Don't start compromising quality for the sake of price.
By the way Robert everyone is right 800 is dirt cheap.
Kevin
Robert-
If a customer asks for "something just like that", I recommend that they just buy it since there's no way I can make it and be cost competitive with a mass produced item.
When I'm talking to customers, I ask for pictures of stuff they like so I can get an idea of what 'style' they want. I also ask lots of questions about intended use so I know how 'stout' it needs to be. (Shelving for a few pictures is different than shelving for their anvil collection - lol)
Once I've determined the specifications, I "build" the piece (board by board and cut by cut) in the computer based on the tools and equipment I have (or can buy). Finally, I build a spreadsheet listing all materials and hardware as well as my best guesstimate of the time necessary to build, finish, deliver and install. When everything has been entered, a price pops up at the bottom.
When I was doing this as a hobby, I was satisfied with a price that covered materials. Now, I have a 'shop rate' that covers my time, insurances, etc. I can wiggle the shop rate a little depending on the customers schedule - if they want it in two weeks, they pay full price. If they're more flexible, I can lower the rate some.
RobertW,
OK, I get your point - you are not a professional woodworker, but keep things in perspective. Your neighbor is asking you to spend $400 and 60 hours to build something for them.
Suppose you went to the neighbor and said "OK, I'll build it for you at cost. Will you give me 60 hours of your time?"
Then ask them to paint your house, take care of your garden, whatever. (Actually this is an unfair comparison because you are trading skilled laborer time for unskilled laborer time.)
What you will find is that they are probably happy to part with the $5000 or so not to have to give up their free time.
Just because you enjoy your work is no reason not to be paid.
Regards,
Dan
If I read the original message correctly the sale was entirely hypothetical. I think you guys are getting too hung up with what your time is worth. Yes we need to be paid but if you get hung up with getting paid for every minute you will probably never allow yourself the chance to make something of lasting value.
Robert, one thing you will realize very quickly if you start doing commissions is that they can quickly suck the fun out of woodworking. Deadlines and other stresses mean that your not just relaxing and building something in the shop.
One thing to be very careful of is what you plan to do if your customer is unsatisfied with the work. Say you make a mistake, and they complain about it. You have two choices, either tell them tough #### or you fix it. the first option will probably cost you a friend. the second option will cost you more money in time and materials, and before you know it you could be spenidng your money on their project. are you willing to do that?
I don't think I have ever built a perfect piece of furniture and there has usually been something unexpected that has come up. Because I factor this into the equation I have never lost money on a job, and I hope I never do.
Richard is right, either charge a fair rate or don't do the work. Try to find a lawyer or a mechanic that will work for 6 bucks an hour. If furniture making was that easy everyone would build things themselves.
Andrew
I can see the fun getting sucked out of woodworking. I used to really enjoy landscaping until I did a few jobs for neighbors eons ago. I was well paid for my work because landscapers were hard to come by in the area I was living in.
Your point about lawyers is a good one. You hire one based on what you can reasonably afford that can help you with your case. Furniture is different because the penalties for buying an $800 dresser vs. a $5,000 one are comparatively small. I'm currently replacing the pressboard furniture in my house that we bought as a temporary solution after a move. We bought this crap 7 years ago and it has really held up well. As a matter of fact, I use part of the old Sauder computer desk in my shop as a base for my jointer and for storage of saw blades etc...
The problem with pricing at the high end in my area is the we are all middle income folks. (40 to 75k) Nobody I know would EVER spend something like $4,000 on a single piece of furniture, so if I am to start selling things, I have to price accordingly. I do realize that $800 is low for this hypothetical dresser (copy of one I built for my wife). I could almost see getting $1500 for it now that I've looked around at some store prices for "real" furniture.
Have any of you folks ever sold on consignment or is that a waste of time?
>one thing you will realize very quickly if you start doing commissions is that >they can quickly suck the fun out of woodworking.
This is the keystone...Dont forget it , and charge accordingly...
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