Replies

1. 
   Hastings | Oct 12, 2007 08:58pm | #1

   Shawn:

   Are you nuts? What's $120 in the scheme of things? How many hours will you put into this project? What's your satisfaction worth and hours of enjoyment looking at a piece well made?

   If you are new to staining, why take the risk of having it look awful?

   The joy of being able to make things for oneself is that one can afford to put in top-quality ingredients because the quantities are so low. Why think like a commercial operation? Get something that cannot be store-bought.

   Just my opinion! Please don't take offense :-)

   Regards,

   Hastings

1. 
   msp100 | Oct 12, 2007 09:15pm | #3

   None taken.  That's the stuff I'm looking to hear.

   Thanks.

2. 
   SteveSchoene | Oct 12, 2007 09:10pm | #2

   I'd spring for the cherry.  You'll never get a real match for cherry with Minwax stains.  If you worked out a dye, then stain finishing schedule you might get pretty close to the right color and then even if you get a perfect match to the color it won't be a good match for very long since the real cherry in the face frame will darken over time and the color birch won't change nearly so much or in the same way. 

3. 
   KiddervilleAcres | Oct 12, 2007 09:15pm | #4

   Hi Shawn,

   Is using contrasting woods not an option? 

   I would think that birch carcasses with cherry faceframes might look real good.  Also, your options for the birch finish are pretty much wide open.

   Just my 2¢.

   Regards,

   Bob @ Kidderville Acres

    

   A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!

   
   

   ---

   Edited 10/12/2007 2:16 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres

1. 
   dougmeyer | Oct 12, 2007 09:31pm | #5

   I don't know what Cherry if going for around you but around me cherry ply is going near and dear. It is to the point that on a bd ft cost it is all but the same as rough cherry.

   I did a kitchen with Cherry Ply and I am not sure I will go that route again. For the cost I may as well have spent the money on solit wood. The cost of cherry ply has gone nuts in the last couple years.

   So personally I figure that if I will not really see the ply (say only inside a full book case) I would save the money and go brich ply, but if I am going to see it I would go solid wood. Then again the cost dif around here for Cherry ply (from Birch) is closer to 3 times the cost. So three sheets would set me back a couple hundred more.

   Doug Meyer

4. 
   Frank Vucolo | Oct 12, 2007 09:33pm | #6

   Hi Shawn,

    

   I think, in a way, you answered your own question when you say:

   "I suppose a year from now the extra $120 variance I spent on the 3 sheets of cherry instead of birch won't matter much.  But if I can't tell the difference once it's stained, then why pay the extra." 

   You will always be able to tell the difference (even if others won't) and that is why I would suggest you construct this piece either from solid cherry and cherry ply, or completely from another species (birch) with stain.

   You might want to try some stains and finishes on birch scraps before committing to a finish. If you can achieve the desired result, why not construct the whole piece from birch rather than mixing species?

   I'm a fan of avoiding stain at all cost. Sometimes you can't help it if you are trying to match another piece, but if possible I stay away from stain.

   When selecting a species like cherry, celebarte it, don't stain it. Use a clear finish (there are some good wipe-on tung oil varnishes out there) and let the cherry do the talking. It will age with time and exposure to light and get a beautiful reddish brown (not that fake red look that cherry stains bring.) If the stock has pitch pockets and character, let it show!

   My current project is a cabinet constructed of cherry and cherry ply. It's going to be a linin cabinet in a large master bath. I went with a ply carcass over solid or frame and panal because of the potentially humid conditions. (I'll try to attach a pic of the not-yet-finished priec if I can figure out how to do that here.) I am very pleased with the results.

   When you calculate all the money spent on stock, hardware and supplies; and when you calculate in what your time and experise is worth, the added cost of cherry ply will be a small percent of the overall project. 20 years from now when you are looking at that piece - talking to your kid about how you made it - you will think it's the best money you ever spent!

   Good luck with the project!

    

    

   
1. 
   msp100 | Oct 12, 2007 10:14pm | #7

   Good Points Frankfive (Frank I presume).  And nice job on the linen cabinet!

   I agree with keeping away from the stain on attractive wood like cherry.  My reason for going dark was to match a desk in my office which has a dark cherry finish.  But I'm wondering now if I might be able to get away with a lighter finish to show off the wood a little better. 

   Anyway, that's my dilemma.  I think you and every else who chimed in helped me make my mind up to go all cherry.  I appreciate everyone's feedback.  I'll continue to monitor this in case there are any additional comments.

   Shawn

1. 
   user-83153 | Oct 12, 2007 11:44pm | #8

   I think that you could stand to rethink your intended finish too. Will this piece get a lot of sunlight?

   If it was mine I would probably use some BLO and then a coat of garnet shellac and an alkyd resin varnish.

1. 
   msp100 | Oct 13, 2007 12:10am | #9

   No experience what so ever with linseed oil.  I'm gonna play around with some of these finishes before settling. 

   How does boiled linseed compare to tung oil?

1. 
   user-83153 | Oct 13, 2007 01:15am | #11

   BLO doesn't have the magical name that tung oil does. Then again if you buy BLO you know what you are getting. Most of the things that say tung oil on them aren't tung oil at all but a wiping varnish or oil varnish mix or varnish made with tung oil, some don't have any tung oil in them at all. Anyway if you compare 100% pure tung oil to BLO you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between the two except BLO will cure in a week or less while tung oil can take a month to cure and cost you quite a bit more in the process.

    I recommended the BLO just to pop the grain and figure in the cherry. You would then have to wait for the BLO to cure completely (if you can still smell it at all, it isn't cured), then apply either garnet or amber(orange) shellac to give the wood warmth, depth, and clarity. Followed by alkyd or phenolic resin varnish. You don't need the extreme abrasion resistance of poly in this case and using it will bring faults in that the other types of varnish don't have.

   Edited 10/12/2007 6:16 pm ET by Rob A.

5. 
   troys | Oct 13, 2007 12:46am | #10

   If you have a lumber dealer that caters to professionals you might also look at plywood that is red birch I have used it before and it is much closer to cherry plywood. I have not bought any of this recently so I don't know how much cheaper than the cherry ply it is. Good luck

   Troy

6. 
   frenchy | Oct 13, 2007 10:19pm | #12

   msp100

    Too bad you didn't anticipate the need a while ago.. if you had you could have zipped down to Johnson logging in Cannon Falls and picked up cherry boards.. Mill run cherry sells for just over a dollar a bd.ft.. that's $32.00 for the same amount as a sheet of plywood.. If you wanted FAS you'd have to shell out$1.65 so your cost would be $52.80 for 32 sq.ft of one inch thick boards.. Bring them inside to dry during the summer with A/C on and inside 3 months they would be down to workable moisture. (takes less time during the winter) 

         As for your choice of finish..

      Polyurethanes are all right if you don't mind the cheap plastic look that it can impart.. some people use satin to hide the plastic look but that just obscures the beauty of the wood. 

     Tung oils and BLO are OK to look at but they will eventually dull out and fade away..

      Shellac,,  Ahhh! shellac..

     Nothing finer!

        safe, (you've been eating shellac since you were a kid on pills and a lot of candy)  insanely easy to apply and correct mistakes, durable and above all beaitiful.

    Fine antiques use shellac to impart a richness and warm no other finish will..

    Did I mention insanely easy?  If a klutzes like me can do a nice job of it, you should be a master!

     Durable!  My floors all are shellaced and my 150 pound dog (who absolutely refuses to trim his claws to a reasonable length) can't seem to damage it..

      If somehow it gets damaged it's so easy to fix you'll want to damage it just to show off. (hint, only say the words Abra Cadabra when small children are around) 

   Cheap? well let's say affordable.. I suspect that doing the whole project will cost you under $50.00 that includes a new brush!

    Shellac is one of those secrets that only the best woodworkers know about .. But I'm an outcast so I'll tell you how to do a great foolproof finish that will be completed inside two hours or less..   Just ask..

1. 
   msp100 | Oct 13, 2007 11:07pm | #13

   If I were able to find Cherry at $1.60 a foot, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  I've got to ask, where's Cannon Falls? 

1. 
   frenchy | Oct 14, 2007 01:20am | #14

   MSP100

      I'd mistakenly assumed that your name has something to do with Minneapolis /St. Paul.  Or the twin cites of Minnesota.. Cannon Falls is about 50 miles south.. You didn't fill out your profile so I couldn't see where you were from..

    Those are prices wood is sold at wholesale from sawmills around the country.. If you go to http://www.hmr.com  they have a market newsletter that's sent to most sawmills with prices I quote.

       Some cavots, that is wholesale.. Some sawmills require a minimum purchase of a bunker (around 1000 bd.ft.)   (mine doesn't)   Some sawmills won't let you sort even if you promise to restack neatly so you need to take what they have.  Mine will allow you to stand at the end of the sawmill and select each board)   All wood is green and rough at the mill, those aren't delivered prices so you'll need to sticker them up and let them dry. Plus you'll need to run them thru a planer and over a jointer..

    However buying wood this way results in a dramatic decrease in the cost of our hobby..

    It may not be worth it to a professional shop who bills out every moment of time used, but to the average hobbiest it's the differance between heirloom quailty and a nice functional piece..

   Edited 10/13/2007 6:33 pm ET by frenchy

1. 
   dougmeyer | Oct 14, 2007 02:58pm | #15

   IF I could find cherry for that price i would be willing to pick up a 1000bd ft, around me about the best deal I can find on cherry is close to $6 a bd ft. (I am in Metro Detroit)

   I do a lot with Cherry and for that cost would be willing to built the whole library (a 14' by 28' room that will have 8' tall book cases on almost all the walls) out of cherry.

   On the other hand if I could get cherry that cheap maybe I could get walnut just as cheap.

   Doug

1. 
   frenchy | Oct 14, 2007 07:33pm | #16

   Doug,

    Cherry grows near the Detriot area.  I'd suggest that you start looking at small to medium sized sawmill, (the big ones all have a large customer base and a staff that seems determined to not sell any wood)..  a sawmill that saws a million bd.ft. or smaller is what you are looking for..

     An easy way to find that place is contact your local pallet mills and ask who their suppliers are.. pallet mills buy wood at the lowest price and yet the wood itself has to meet pretty hard specs or it can't be used in a GMA pallet  or a lot of other applications..

    Lacking that call Johnson logging here in Cannon Falls Minnesota and ask for Dan or Connie. You might mention my name..

    As for black walnut, would it break your heart to know I bought most of my black walnut for only 17 cents a bd.ft.?   Sorry,   I bought it in 1999 when there was no market for the darker hardwoods like cherry or black walnut.   They were sending it off to pallet mills to be made into pallets.  Since then the Chineese have come into the market and have most black walnut tied up at $2.65 a bd.ft.   for mill run..

   Edited 10/14/2007 12:45 pm ET by frenchy

2. 
   dougmeyer | Oct 15, 2007 12:35am | #17

   That is still better then what I am seeing around here. I will have to see if I can track down a sawmill, but I dont know of any in the area. I am looking at needing a lot of wood when I get around to the library. (and even more if I ever get around to building access to the loft)

   Doug

3. 
   frenchy | Oct 15, 2007 01:29am | #19

   Doug,

      Finding a sawmill is the one really remarkable thing I've done with wood working.. Hopefully you've seen the pictures of my home in progress.. If not, to summarize I have bought 50,000 bd.ft. of hardwood to build this place.. If I built it with 2x4's etc. (traditional stick building) I'd have spent over $85,000 at the lumberyard building this size house.. Instead I spent less than $25,000

    That's black walnut white oak cherry maple etc.. All Hardwoods..and some really extraordinary stuff.. If I paid retail price I would have spent more than $900,000 for this stuff.. $900,000 for less than $25,000. 

       It might be a task to do but I assure you that it will be well worth your time..  do call local pallet manufactures and ask for their source  (I get better results asking in person than over the phone , Harder for them to blow me off)  explain what you are doing and let them know you won't be competition and they will help.

    One final warning..  When you get such fantastic deals on wood it's hard to not become a woodaholic..

     There were times when I wouldn't go a week without getting my fix of woodbuying.. If I stopped in they'd have this fantastic stack of 5/4 ash that had nearly 2000 bd.ft  I could have it all for $300.00

     When that didn't get me they'd wave some 1600 bd.ft. of fiddleback maple for only $160.00  under my nose..  Or stop in and find out about thins..

     You see mother nature doesn't make all trees exactly an even amount of inches so they slice off whatever was extra to wind up even and I'd have all these boards less than an inch thick for $20.00 per pickup truck load.. I mean hunting for squirrels tailgate dragging truck load. 

    cherry, oak, maple black, walnut, whatever..  More than a 1000 sq.ft of whatever they were sawing that day.. cherry walnut etc.. ..

    the thicker stuff I'd run though my planner to say a standardized 3/4 inch or 1/2 inch the thinner stuff I'd stop at 3/8ths anything that didn't clean up at 3/8ths became fire wood.

    I could nail the thinner stuff over cheap wood like ash, hackberry, poplar, basswood, etc. and have the look of solid cherry or whatever then use the 3/4 stuff as a raised panel rail and stile. with a cost lower than sheetrock..

    Great wood at cheap prices is addicting.. fair warning! 

   Edited 10/14/2007 6:32 pm ET by frenchy

4. 
   dherzig | Oct 15, 2007 02:53am | #20

   Have you been up to Armstrong Mill Works in Highland MI. It is on M-59 about 2 miles east of the intersection with US 23. They have a huge supply of all sorts of lumber in many widths and thicknesses. They allow you to spend all the time you want to pull pieces as long as you restack them as they were. They will also run it over a jointer to partially flatten one face and will cut into lengths. Very nice to deal with. (248-887-1037). Another source is B&B Heartwoods on Whitmore Lake Rd. in Ann Arbor. The selection is less but I can often I can find what I want. For plywood, check with Toledo Plywood. Huge selection and often if you do not need a whole piece, they have "shop Grade" which will have defects that can be worked around. They have a web site.

5. 
   dougmeyer | Oct 15, 2007 02:55pm | #21

   No I have not been up thier, but having talked with several peaple that have. The issue is not finding the wood (there are several places to get wood) the issue is one of cost. The numbers being used for the wood from a mill is a LOT less then the numbers I have to wood from anyplace else (Armstong included).

   Doug

7. 
   mrbird90 | Oct 15, 2007 01:16am | #18

   I just built cherry kitchen cabinets for a client and used cherry plywood for the sides. However, there was one side that would have a washing machine along side so I decided to use a piece of birch there. After I applied the Zar teak 120 stain to my amazement it was almost impossible to tell the difference between the cherry and birch. I can see the difference but I doubt the untrained eye would be able to tell. All the frames and doors were solid cherry. The grain can give the birch away.