Hmmmmm, the pic below is from a recent American Woodworker. I’ve not put my biscuit joiner to work yet, and I’m wondering, is this method of operation safe? I’ve seen Norm do some real dumb things (IMO) with a BJ, but the pose below I’m not sure about. Might be ok, might not.
Isn’t this the kind of cut that could be done with 2 boards back-to-back to provide more support?
forestgirl Another proud member of the “I Rocked With ToolDoc Club” …. :>) you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Replies
if the board itself is well clamped and you've got a good grip on the fence/board with good firm plunge force, i don't see any problem with this at all.
m
I know your problem with the setup.
I just made a bunch of drawers with #10 biscuts and 1/2 " baltic birch .
It was real unnerving to have my hand behind the birch and a 1/16 or so between
my finger and the blade. Gotta figure out a better way!!!
Bud
f_g
Normally this cut is done with the fence at 45 degrees the other way and the board flat on the bench - Makita and the reputable companies supply a spacer to get the biscuit slot in the correct position on the mitre. A bit safer than this way
Looks as though the correspondent had figured out another way. Not ideal for this circumstance - if nothing else the weight of the biscuit jointer is damaging the sharp edge of the mitre.
Is it unsafe - well, there's a better, safer way and I'd avoid having the machine and my hand where shown. It probably is safe but I wouldn't do it - I'd look for another way.
If you want to link my post to the editors of the magazine, feel free.
Cheers,
eddie
It violates my never-put-your-bare-hand-behind-the-blade-and push-toward-your-hand rule so this cut wouldn't feel right to me, based on the way I was trained. Don't know if it could specifically be considered dangerous, but it would probably make a cleaner slot to put a quick clamp on the fence instead of holding it with your bare hand. The above rule applies whether you are at the tablesaw, bandsaw, using a chisel, or even using a boxcutter on cardboard (or even cutting a carrot for a salad).
Congrats on your marriage. Stay warm. Shorts weather here again today.
Even though in general it's not good practice to put one's hand in front of a blade, in this case I think what's pictured is a safe practice. The blade can only extend from the tool 3/4 of an inch or so, so it cannot come shooting at the hand. The tool won't slip off the work because of the acute angle the fence makes with the face. I'm quite strict about safety, both at work and at home, and I would not hesitate to use this technique (keeping in mind potential damage to the edge as mentioned previously).
i'll have to check my 557 but i believe the fence is somewhat relieved so that it's not actually contacting the sharp edge of the stock. now you've got me wondering, not that i would be unduly concerned about damage so long as everything is held nice and tight.
m
IMO the method shown is safe eouugh the joiner is unlikely to jump over the long point of the mitre.In fact safer than on square edge stock.I have found that the joiner tends to move laterally especially on end grain small stock.Great care is necessary when the stock is narrower than the pin or pad separation on the machine
Thanks, all, for your perspectives on this! A mitered box-type platform is probably going to be my first biscuit joiner project, and I really wanted to get some opinions. Hadn't thought at all about any risk to the sharp corner.forestgirl Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Safe enough for me. The operator doesn't really have his hand all that close to the blade anyway. The advantage to the 225* fence angle is that the biscuit slots are registered to the outside of the mitre so any discrepancies in thickness go to the inside leaving the outside corner nice and even. I have the yellow BJ so for me it's moot.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
f_g,
here's a drawing of how to do what I was saying.
it's probably the way the manual says to do it too! But the manual doesn't get read too often, I suppose.
much safer than your original picture
eddie
FG,
We did have a guy on here one time talking about how his biscuit joiner walked on him....because he did not let it come up to full speed.
I use the jig I built for cleaning up 45's with the low angle block plane. ...
"...because he did not let it come up to full speed." I do the same thing to anyone who doesn't give me enough caffeine time in the morning, LOL! Seriously, though, thanks for the tip. My BJ and I really need to get a relationship going here.forestgirl Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I have that biscuit joiner and have used it as shown. The only problem that I can see is if you have the biscuit size dial set at FF and the large blade mounted, the blade may come through the wood and cut your finger if you have your hand in too close to the blade. Putting your hand on the bale handle would be the better choice. If you are making 90 degree slots and have your hand on the bale handle and apply too much down pressure with you trigger finger hand, you may have misaligned joints which will produce an uneven surface. When I first started using my PC biscuit cutter, and NOT paying attention to what I was doing, I changed out my FF blade to the large blade and did NOT change the dial setting. Had my work all set up, lined up the red index line with the line on my work, squeezed the trigger, and pushed the blade all the way through the material. Seeing that spinning blade come out the other side is not something you want to see especially when my finger was within a 1/8 inch of the blade. At that moment I felt so DUMB , STUPID , and very LUCKY. We all have to be careful every day and if something does'nt look right, recheck your setup and work before you turn on the power. A few minutes to reset is better than a trip to the hospital.
f_g,
on reflection, this original picture is unsafe.
If the biscuit jointer is accidentally set to cut to maximum depth, then it will break through the exposed face of the board when not expected.
Who knows where fingers would have been and what would have happenned when the user was surprised.
eddie
Edited 1/6/2004 2:21:59 PM ET by eddie (aust)
Unsafe? In the original picture the guy's hand is in the optimal position. However unlikley it would be with 3/4" material and a properly set fence (placing the slot towards the heal of the bevel) if the blade did come through his fingers are still 2-3" away. So if he were so surprised he were to panic what would happen? He might just bail out and let go of the BJ which would leave it sitting there right on top of the board with the blade retracted safe and sound, even if the trigger was locked. Or would you have us believe that in a panic fueled psychosis he would maintain the feed pressure leaving the blade extended, keep the thing running, release his grip and move his hand to the blade in disbelief that it actually came through? If this operation scares you buy a different BJ or take up knitting with Ralph Nader.
(Standing on soapbox) I'm not picking on anyone in particular, but I feel safety hysteria is just like crying wolf. It's a pet peave of mine in general. If the credibility of safety warnings are called into question then the important ones tend to be ignored. I feel we have a responsibility here. If you tell a newbie this operation is unsafe and he figures out this is BS on his own then will he take heed when you tell him to always use paddles when face planing on a jointer? (Stepping off soapbox)John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
John,
Normally, your posts are well written and accurate. Let's agree to disagree on this one. Here's why
<soapbox>
I wasn't going to reply to this but on second thoughts I will.
Regrettably, I have a heavy industry background and have had to deal with many accidents at a supervisory level.
Some include:
Washing out a machine after a guy fed his arm into moving razor blades (Tried to separate strands with a stick and slipped/was bumped)
Dealing with a guy that was wrapped around a 16" mandrel (cylinder) and lived to tell the tale (another operator disabled safety interlock with him in machine)
Comforting a guy that was trapped between a conveyor head pulley (3 tonnes) and a wall - broken pelvis and two thigh bones.
Writing an accident report on myself when 10 tonnes of steel fell 20 feet from a crane when the hook sheared at the sheave - luckily, my training was never stand under a load - saved my life.
I'm concerned that there's a degree of machismo at times, especially in some male dominated environments - a factor in all the accidents listed above.
</soapbox>
So, the biscuit jointer now.
If this operation scares you buy a different BJ or take up knitting with Ralph Nader
Or, alternatively, warn others that it may be a risk. (Who's Ralph Nader?)
So if he were so surprised he were to panic what would happen?
I know at least three cabinetmakers who have cut a groove from their left hand with a biscuit jointer - in each case, working near the left edge of a carcase and having the biscuit jointer catch on solid wood (usually a knot) and jump 1-3" to the left.
Believe me, there are at least three people who will confirm that the hand can move faster into the blade than the guard retraction mechanism can close off the blade.
So if he were so surprised he were to panic what would happen?
I'm not sure, but I wouldn't take the chance.
Anyway - have to fly. Hope this reply clears things up for you and lets you know where I'm coming from
Cheers,
eddieps: rather than be a naysayer, I provided a better way to do this
Edited 1/6/2004 6:13:20 PM ET by eddie (aust)
eddie,
"I know at least three cabinetmakers who have cut a groove from their left hand with a biscuit jointer - in each case, working near the left edge of a carcase and having the biscuit jointer catch on solid wood (usually a knot) and jump 1-3" to the left."
Agreed this (your example) is a real risk but is completely out of context with the original question and the picture posted. We don't have to disagree - no machismo on this end. As an engineer I just insist on good engineering. For the given operation his hand is in the best place. The fence on this model was specifically engineered for this operation. I think PC's lawyers would have blocked it's development or since stopped production if it posed undue product liability exposure. Given the need for a stopped spline mitre joint referenced off of the show faces you'd be left with using a router or a table saw and both of those would require serious jig building and plunging the work on to an exposed rotating blade or cutter. I'll take my chances with the BJ thank you. Some might consider the trigger lock on the Dewalt BJ unsafe. Fact is, the the only time it's jumped to the left on me is when doing a series of slots in rapid succession I plunged before I pulled the trigger. My left hand was riding on the fence and moved with the BJ so I wasn't injured. Since that near-miss I use the trigger lock when doing a series of slots.
I almost broke my hand when a Milwaukee "Hole Hawg" hooked up on a knot and took my hand into the inside of a stucco wall. The safety zealots would say not to use a "Hole Hawg" to drill holes in wall studs. But it's purpose built just for that job. Ask any electrician or plumber and they'll tell you the same. They have so much torque you don't dare let little guys use them or it'll just spin them around until the cord gets pulled out. So what do you do? You either drill the hole and get the job done or go home.
BTW Ralph Nader is a self-appointed consumer activist wannabe polititian. He discovered that you could get a Corvair to rollover easily on even slightly under-inflated front tyres (aussie sp?:)) so he wrote a book called "Unsafe at Any Speed" about it and raised enough of a stink that GM quit making them.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
Hi John,
An engineer here also.
Regrettably one of the few states with a higher incidence of lawsuits per head of population than California is New South Wales.
Normally, mitre joints here are biscuited as shown in the sketch I linked to with the fence referenced off the inside corner of the mitre - assumes of course that both pieces are the same thickness.
Yes, if both pieces were differently sized then you'd have a problem - but mitred pieces of different thickness are fairly uncommon
Cheers,
eddie
Agreed, the only BJ I've seen with the outside reference capable fence is the PC in question. I don't do a lot of this type of joint anyway as edgewise mitres are inherently week and fussy to boot. Too bad about the litigous nature of NSW. Our media skewed view of Austrailans is you're just a bunch of good natured FDH (Fat Dumb & Happy) beer drinkers that like to barbeque small crustacea and have women that all look like Olivia Newton John :) We have a lot in common except all the women here look like Heather Locklear or Salma Hayeck.
I don't know what day it is, let alone the time there. But this is amazing technolgy we have to play with. Since my previous post I left the office, made the 45 minute/26 mile drive through "paradise" to home, read an email from my best friend's kid about the fire fight he was in last night in Iraq, polished off 3/4 of a Bass Ale, and am chit-chatting with a complete friggin stranger a days flight away because we share the same cellulous fettish. #### this IS a great time to be alive. Just last night the wife and I were laughing about the big deal an engineer friend of mine made a little over 20 years ago when he got an Apple I.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
FG,
Safety aside, I've not had good luck with the accuracy of this type of cut. I've attached a couple of photos of a VERY simple jig that solves both safety and accuracy. You can adjust the height of the cut by adding shims or just replace the support piece, its just tacked on with a few brads. For BJ's, I try to register the cut using the baseplate instead of the fence whenever possible.
Norse
Edited 1/7/2004 5:19:36 PM ET by Norse
Norse,
I use the exact same jig !
All,
One of the most common biscuit joiner accidents occurs when your combination square tries to mate with the chip ejection port on the bj. On a hill by the harbour
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