I wanted to bring up the topic of bicuit joinery as I use mine frequently. My skill level is improving for flush accuracy but I would like to be much more consistent. I would appreciate any tips and or advice to get consisten results. What I have found in the past is how you hold the biscuit jointer and where you place your hand on it for ballance is crucial. Time and experience will surely help but how do I get there a little quicker?
Carpenter 5
Replies
I usually make the cuts with the pieces on the bench, and reference the bottom of the joiner on the bench, instead of using the adjustments. If I want to raise the height I shim up. Easiest way I have found to keep things tight.
My method too, Jigs. I used to use the "fence" on top and found that I sometimes "tipped" my biscuit cutter a little and cut a slightly angled slot. This caused the biscuit to be angled and it caused a misalignment when I put the pieces together. If i had been really careless, the joint wouldn't even close completely up.
After I started registering everything to my benchtop, the "tipping" problem went away and my alignments were almost always dead-on. I say "almost" because I have to pay close attention to make sure that a wood shaving or chip doesn't get under the bottom plate.
I use mine connected to my DC and I seldom have a chip or shaving. It's become second nature to cut a slot, brush away any stray chips and, move to my next mark.
Here's a picture of my setup. Yes, I use a Craftsman biscuit cutter - and no, it isn't a POS. It's done a fine job for me for several years now. - lol
Mr 5,
I like biscuits too (although I am currently doing witout them whilst practicing old fashioned methods with handtools - already I have biscuit-withdrawl symptoms).
Here's what I've discovered (sometimes the hard way) in my use of thousands of biscuits:
1 Get a good machine; slop in the slideways or the motor will not make accurately-sized slots; out-of-whack fences, bottom plates and the like will also stop good biscuiting before you start. I have a Mafell but lust after a Lamello. FWW had a test of biscuit joiners not so long ago and a few of them suffered the sins I mention.
2 I never use the bottom plate on a bench or whatever as reference. It is too easy to get bumps, shavings or whatever undre the plate, the workpiece or both. I always use the right angle fence on the top of the workpiece as the reference.
3 Best results come from using workpieces that are accurately dimensioned, flat, square, clean and evenly thick. A wonky workpiece gives a wonky reference surface for biscuiting.
4 Keep the machine clean - resin, dust and other stuff sticking to fences, bumpers and the slideways can cause errors. Dust extraction helps a lot.
I find if I obey these rules, the biscuiting always turns out very well.
Lataxe, a bisketeer
I have heard some horror stories here and people lambasting biscuits, but I use them and have never had any real problems. I use a PC jointer now (nice) and before that I used a craftsman biscuit cutting attachment for the router. Never had a problem with that either. I just make sure I clearly mark a reference face on the wood, so it will match up. That way I dont have to worry that I get the biscuit dead even. Second, I make sure the piece are securily clamped to by work bench. I use a fine pencil line and extend the line with scrap for narrow pieces. It just helps me judge the line better. I hold the face and slide along and cut. No real issues. the reason I like the biscuits is they can be off by just a hair (left to right not top to bottom), and it can be flexible. That's how I do it. Again, I have never had a problem.
I'm really quite shocked by this discussion. I was always under the impression that, with a bisquit joiner, alignment was automatic. If not, if the joint still needs to be fussed with to get it aligned, then what's the point? Why not just use a drill and dowling jig? That's how I used to do it. But I got frustrated with the joint alignment doing it that way so I just went with a "naked" but joint.
What's the benefit of using bisquits?I spent a fortune on deodorant until I finally realized that people didn't like me anyway.
I don't own a bisquit jointer, and figures to use my router table, but seem to be missing something. Do I need a special bisquit cutter, or can I use a slot cutter, and the bisquits are not round, so how do you set it up and work it for the taper on the bisquits??
PTU,
Use a slot cutter with a 4mm width with a router to make biscuit slots. You can buy one specially made for biscuiting that comes with three collars to allow you to make slots with the correct depth for sizes 0,10 & 20 biscuits.
I used a Bosch POF600A router with one of these cutters for 18 months before I got a biscuit joiner. It's OK if you have no joiner but you must take care to avoid wobble and set the router up accurately.
After you've marked the locations for the biscuits, set the depth of the cutter as needed, then plunge and make a short forward push to create the half-football shape slot. The collar registers on the edge of the plank and the router base registers on the top; or vice-versa, depending on where you want the slots.
If the router base needs to run on a narrow edge, avoid wobble by temporarily clamping another piece to the workpiece, to provide a wider platform aong which the router base can run.
The workpiece, on which the router base is registering needs to be good and flat.
Alternatively, use the slot cutter in a router table and plunge the workpiece onto the cutter (collar in line with the fences) then move the workpiece along a bit before unplunging. The result is again a half-football shaped slot of a depth determined by the collar you use.
Personally I preferred the freehand method rather than the router table. It's easier to manage and probably safer.
One drawback - you can't cut slots in the middle of a panel with a router biscuit cutter, as you can with a biscuit joiner. The router method needs to be done in the vicinity of a right angle on the workpiece, so the router base (or router table top) and cutter-collar (or fence) can both register.
Go mad and get a Lamello, if you can find the moolah. Another post to this thread extols its virtues, despite the hundreds of dollars it costs. Router biscuiting bits are about $30 - $50 for a decent one, in contrast.
Lataxe
Lataxe,
Thanks for the quick return. I'm impressed with modern technology, getting a message from so far away, so quickly! And don't you guys use Wentworth over there? Anyways, I guess I'll wait till I can afford a proper tool, I've not used bisquits much, and have been able to get by without them, probably because I don't understand the full advantage of using them. The few times I have used them, the results were less than what I was looking for. I made my slots in a similar fashion, but probably not accuratly enough.
The cutter is larger diameter than a router slot cutter and the depth of the cut determines the size of the biscuit -- 0, 10, or 20 are the common sizes. So to get the equivalent, you have to slide the cutter across the slot.I have tried the router-based products and they have a significant drawback -- they will only do edge or near-edge joints. You cannot do a butt joint in the middle of something like a bookcase. The one I used would also not do a miter joint.The other issue is that biscuits are I think set up for metric slots, with 5/32" being a close fit.I'd recommend saving up for a real tool.
Chuck,
Biscuits eliminate half of the alighment problems of dowels; with dowels you must be accurate both edge-to-(rear)face AND along the width of both boards, but biscuits allow roughly 1/8" slop along the width. This forgiveness is why biscuits are so popular - especially for casework. Of course, for both biscuits and dowels, if you are joining a face frame to case sides and want the face frame to be slightly proud of the case side (as another post mentioned, and is very common in casework) then you can use that proudness to hold a bit of slop in the edge-to-face direction as well. For biscuits this means a bit of forgiveness in both directions - which does more than double the attractiveness of biscuits (some sort of strange mathematical principle at work here ;-)
Art
Chuck,Biscuits beat dowels every time, IMHO, even if they both took the same amount of fussing (and they don't). If you're edge-joining, dowels are cross-grain and therefore weak, on top of the difficulty with alignment. Biscuits make edge-joinery easier, even if there is still some fiddling to do, compared to "naked" or dowels.There is indeed a huge difference in ease of use and precision among the different makes of plate joiners. My old Freud was a POS... the PC is a huge improvement. Still sometimes get a misalignment but it's usually because the board isn't quite flat. It helps to develop a consistent technique for registering the face against the board.
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
I do enjoy reading the various debates about biscuit joinery. I thought I would join in myself.
For me it has nothing to do with joint strength, efficiency, alignments or anything else regarding the joint aspect of biscuitry. I simply love to use the biscuit jointer! I am not a professional, just a hobbyist, and as such it is all about enjoyment for me and I really enjoy using the biscuit joiner! So shoot me if you must. I will die smiling. :>)
What's the bennifit of Biscuits?
It's been argued here numerous times here, both pro and con. I don't find them difficult. Even when I used the old craftsman jig, I never had a problem. They are easy, in my opinion. The bennefit to me is if you are off just a little left to right, it is forgiving. I found that with dowels, if it's not perfect, it won't work. One of my other magazines recelntly had a comparison of joint strenght comparing different kind of faseners and if memory serves the dowel did fair better, but not by much. For me it's a convenience thing really, they are easy to do, and I've never had a failure, so I like them. Some will argue the same for other fasteners. They work for me.
I started out with a Ryobi and got inconsistent results. Then I bought a DeWalt and got inconsistent results. I finally got a Lamello Top 20 and all is well in the biscuit world. The Lamello is an amazing machine and worth every dollar.
Prior to the Lamello, I thought how I held the jointer was what caused misalignments. But with the Lamello, I have used hundreds of buscuits and never had one misalignement. Many other machines have too much runout that causes misalignment. The Lamello has zero runout per FWW tests.
I use a 2' x 4' piece of 3/4" MDF with the Kreg pocket hole embedded plate and clamp to do some of my biscuit work. I blow all the dust off, clamp the piece down and use the base as a reference. On other occasions, I use the machine's fence and that always gives perfect results as well. The Lamello comes with an auxiliary fence that comes in handy for creating a nice stable set of right angle fences for doing edge work.
Finally, the Lamello top 20 comes with the step system that I love. Turning a knob causes the blade to go up or down in 0.1 mm increments up to 2.0 mm. I use this all the time. Just yesterday, I was attaching a face frame that I had made 1/32" wider than the case. I cut biscuit slots on the case at the zero setting. Then I cut biscuit slots on the frame with a 0.4 mm or 1/64" offset. It aligned the face frame perfectly to the case with the face frame 1/64" proud of the case. This has saved me an immense amount of time and improved accuracy greatly.
The Popular Woodworking magazine that came this week has an extensive article on biscuit joining and how to get good fits from them.
Buy a Lamello and set your workpieces up so that you plunge against a benchstop.
That's all there is to it, or at least should be.
The units sold by the major US manufacturers are junk.
Gentlemen:
First of all, Merry Christmas, or Happy Holidays, to all.
Secondly, ditch the biscuit. They add absolutely no strength to a glue joint, and if you mill your stock properly, i.e....flat and square..... then they are also no assistance in alignment. In fact, a swelling biscuit can cause a board to be out of alignment with it's glue-up counterpart more than it will hold it in alignment. Learn some simple and proper glue up techniques, and ditch the time spent cutting all those slots. They add nothing to the value of your joinery.
That being said, have a great holiday.
Jeff
Jeff,
Utter nonsense, my boy!
Next you will tell me that 30 years of not using them has taught you all about them. :-)
Merry Christmas and here's to your New Year resolution to try them out. Perhaps Santa will bring you a Lamello Top 20?
Lataxe
'Been buildin furniture and cabinetry for quite a while with nary a biscuit in site. Norm Abrams was the best (or worst) advertisement for biscuit joiner companies with the New Yankee Workshop. Everything had a biscuit in it. I've seen all the scientific proof on joinery strength tests. Biscuits add nada, nichts, zilch! NOTHING!!
The long grain to long grain strength of a glue joint on table tops is all the strength you need. For alignment, so clamps don't pop the center boards up on large tabletops, use 12/4 cauls clamped across. It's a helluva lot faster than cutting all those slots, only to have 5 of the 100 biscuits overswell and push the joint out of alignment.
However, if you feel the need, slot away, my boy!!
I'm here to tell you that they are completely and utterly unnecessary in a working woodshop.
HO HO HO, Merry Christmas!!
Jeff
Jeff,You are absolutely right, but the biscuit virus has infected the woodworking world and there is no reasoning with the bicuiteers. Their brains have been altered.I have used biscuit joiners, including Lamello, just for the experience. There is nothing that this technology brings to woodworking that improves the craft. Nothing.Everyone, Merry Christmas. Do good work.Rich
Rich,
The Angels brought biscuits for us all to enjoy and you should be grateful. I am begining to think a Bad Sprite is whispering in your ear or that you once touched a toad in the wrong place at the full moon.
But Christmas is here and I wish a merry one to all, even those who do not love the biscuit. :-) May you all receive a Lamello, or at least a Mafell, in your stocking.
Lataxe
Chiming in here. I use biscuits when appropriate.
My favorite is attaching face frames to cabinets. My friend is absolutely fanatical about his cabinets, then uses a brad nailer to attach the face frames blowing the face full of holes. Biscuits take a little longer, but no holes to fill.
I dont bother using biscuits for edge gluing. I would have to argue that they do add a mechanical shear strength, but its probably overkill since edge glue is adequate.The was an article in fine woodworking a few years back that did give some speed tips. The one i remember is to not bother marking on near the ends of pieces. Instead just align the side of the joiner to the end of each of the pieces and only mark when absolutely necessary.
Jeff,I wonder what is it about the biscuit question that makes it so contentious. And I realize that I'm not going to convince you of anything, but FWIW...I've actually studied the amount of time it takes to glue face frames on cabinets using different methods. The additional time it takes to cut the biscuit slots is more than made up for by the faster clamping time. All in all, we turn out more cabinets per hour using biscuits than without them. It simply cuts the clamp time to a fraction.I'm not making any claims for additional strength of biscuits. But statements like "they are completely and utterly unnecessary" are just as prejudiced as the claims that they are a solution for everything.Everything has its use.
Everything also can be done some other way.regards and Happy HolidaysDavid Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
David, In a production cabinet shop there are all kinds of justifcations for the way that carcasses are knocked together, and they include nails, biscuits, dadoes in MDF and plywood that have little integrity other than the thing will be then nailed to a floor or wall, etc., and the need to maximize the number of units that can be moved out the door in a day. The major objection, I think just may have something to do with the title and premise of this forum. FINE Woodworking. Emphasis on Fine. It's not the Expedient Woodworking Forum, It's not the Time is Money Woodworking Forum, it's not the Kitchen Contractor's Forum, it's not the Crude is OK Woodworking Forum, it's not even Taunton's Breaktime Forum. There are schlock methods of work that "get the job done." Biscuit joinery and pocket screw joints have been annointed by savvy tool manufacturers who perceive a lucrative market. Despite the huge popularity in these methods that appeal to the "It's easy to get it done quickly, and it's good enough" mentality, there is nothing "fine" in such methods of work. And when I see furniture construction methods that go out of the way to use biscuits in places where no "enhancement" to the joint of any kind is needed, and in butt joints rather than a M&T joint, I just cringe. Rich
Rich,Your point about FINE woodworking is well taken, and thanks for reminding us of that.I still have to wonder why the "biscuit question" is so touchy. A quick glance at the threads on this forum shows that quite a lot of them deal with trying in one way or another to reconcile Fine Woodworking with some other constraints (you know - expedience, money, etc...) The nice thing about the forum is that people bring all sorts of perspectives, and everyone takes out what suits them. Enjoy the holiday season, and don't waste any more precious time on "cringing". It's unproductive!David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
David
Thanks for your reply, and happy holidays to you as well.
My reply was regarding glue ups of solid lumber, not glueing up cabinets. I guess I should have been a wee bit more specific with my disclaimers, and next time I'll have the attorney throw in some small print. ...................... Just kidding.
I don't wish to be contentious here. As you stated, there are many ways to skin the cat. I too make cabinets and furniture for a living, and I haven't relied on biscuits for attaching face frames, with some success. Whether one relies on glue, pocket screws, biscuits, pins, nails, etc........ is their choice. My only purpose of posting here was to scrutinize the thought that biscuits enhance the process of a solid wood glue up, or a solid wood joint. It just isn't so. In that application, it's simply a waste of time.
Happy biscuiting to you, I'll take a pass.
Jeff
Hi All,
I am somewhat new around here but looking at this thread and looking at some of the threads on the use of hand tools vs power tools and it looks to me like a lot of people have a believe that the old ways are the only good ones, I can see it now if this forum was around when power saws first came in we would have people saying the only fine way to make wood work is to do it with hand tools! Funny part about this is that we are using one of the newest tech toys on the market to have this talk (a PC and the internet).
I think that like everything people have a different view of what fine is for some that means hand tools only for other it is a mix and for some it is just a NICE looking object made of wood. I personally have less interest in how it is made then what the end result looks like. I have used biscuits and that is pretty much for one of two reasons one is to help in clue up I find they stay in alignment much better for me with them and the other is for faceframes and I think (personal experience not tests) that they help in that instance with both alignment and strength. But to each his own and I don't think you will ever convince anyone that hates them to use them. So I am not sure whey those with such strong opinions feel the need to keep re-hashing this issue.
Oh well that is why the sell Windows and Apple machines.
Doug Meyer
You mean my "anti-biscuit" stance means I'm against power tools and in favor of hand tools?
Gosh, does that mean I have to get rid of my table saw, jointer/planer, shaper, horizontal slot mortiser, drill press, router(s), belt sanders, stationary sanders, bandsaw, circular saws, drills, air compressors, and ROS?
No. I couldn't do much "fine" woodworking without them.
It's not the tools, Doug. I love tools, especially power tools. It's the techniques.
When someone receives a piece of furniture from me, the first thing they do is run their hands over the finish, because it looks so inviting. And it feels that way, too. I spend much more time rubbing out my shellac or lacquer finishes than I do applying them. They also know that the piece will outlast them or me by at least another lifetime, because I put it together the best way I know it can be done. Not always the fastest (not the slowest, either), but the best. I have no need for shortcuts or "expedient."
That's what makes it "fine" to me.
There is not one single kind of joint in which a biscuit excels. Not one. Dowels are much, much better for alignment. M&T are lightyears better for strength. Why not use methods that excel, rather than "good enough?" It's actually easier to do it right.
I could apply finish the way I watched a crew finish up a set of kitchen cabinets in the new house construction next door. Several quick applications, and they were out the door to the next job. "Good enough" work, but certainly not "fine."
Rich
Hi All,I think I put this up on the forum a while ago.About 30 years ago, when they introduced dowelling guides, it was met with howls of resistance from the trade because it "dumbed down" the process of drilling two matching holes.Biscuit cutters are a tool designed originally for chipboard and man-made board in all its varieties. However, they definitely have some application in solid timber.However, biscuits don't really help too much in fine alignment - can you biscuit two veneered chipboard panels edge to edge and get a level surface? They do, however, assist in holding things roughly in position until you can make the fine adjustments.I'll be honest, if I was choosing today between buying a biscuit cutter or a Domino machine, I'd choose the Domino, because a biscuit joint isn't accurate (If I need accuracy on a biscuit joint, I'll also include a couple of locating dowels.)However, I have a good biscuit jointer (Makita) so I won't be changing - the money's already 'sunk.' That and I have a horizontal borer/slot mortiser.But, there are applications for biscuits in solid wood - just more of them in chipboard.Cheers,eddieedit: To answer the original poster, Try not to rely on the fence to keep the biscuit jointer level, but reference the cut off the underside of the machine with the board also held flat on the reference surface. This way, the slots are parallel to the underside of the board. As someone else said, shim up the board you're working on to get it at the correct height, if the biscuit jointer is cutting slots in the wrong position.If you must use the fence for positioning, then ensure that the fence is tight and has no slop in it, as well as held firmly onto the surface of the board. As well, in this situation, ensure that the base of the biscuit jointer is not fouling the bench.I can not emphasise this enough, as I know a few tradesmen who have slotted their left thumb with the biscuit cutter when the cutter caught and kicked (it kicks left and anticlockwise, exposing the cutter.) This occurs more often on solid timber.Edited 12/26/2006 3:25 pm by eddiefromAustralia
Edited 12/26/2006 3:35 pm by eddiefromAustralia
Lataxe,
Biscuits??? Aren't those the tasty little tidbits you nibble on while sipping Tea on the veranda late in the afternoon?
:-)Beste Wünschen auf eine Fröhlichen Weihnachten und ein glückliches Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
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